Episode #0198 (22 November 2009)

[SHINOBI-03]

......

Was my Email really that unclear to you all...?!!

You take hacking your DVD players like it's nothing...!

I want to do it, but when it's bought by my father with complete home theater system in a very high price... you can't take chances with doing something you don't know how it'll end...!

For now anyway, I was able to dig up an old DVD/VHS combo from under the dust and it plays R4 DVDs, and I'm saving money to replace my locked DVD drive in my laptop with a newer and install a Region-Free software... and then, everything will be fine. ((Hopefully))

[MajinVejitaXV]

......

Was my Email really that unclear to you all...?!!

You take hacking your DVD players like it's nothing...!

Mine involves hitting the 'Setup' key then '9210' and a lot are just as simple, it's not like hardware modification is required. I'm not sure how we misunderstood though. You asked why we thought they were making such a change, we talked about it and gave our best guesses.

-Corey

[Kendamu]

......

Was my Email really that unclear to you all...?!!

You take hacking your DVD players like it's nothing...!

What kind of DVD player is it? There's probably a DVD remote number code you have to type in sitting online somewhere. And all it does is make your DVD player read any region of DVD. It's not like the player wasn't built for that. The manufacturer just put some dumb code on it because of some oldschool notion of where your money is supposed to be going in a world where you couldn't yet just buy whatever from wherever.

[Hujio]

The gloriousness that is the Kanzentai Dragon Box Z comparison is now available! It'll make your e-penis grow in all directions!

[MajinVejitaXV]

My qualm was not about the exclusion of the dub music. It was about a backhanded remark written by VegettoEX.

Which caused you to remark that the man seemed to be lacking the ability to empathize with those who were fans of the dub's music. Hence, my reply. I'm not targeting you (and I don't think any of my statements were phrased in a way that would mistakenly imply as much), I was simply making a counter to your statement.

And while your statement about "everyone's gotten the same" may be true in the strictest sense, no one would argue about who it was made for and marketed to. This time, the product is definitely aimed at the fans of the original (as, honestly, your average dub fan probably doesn't even know what a 'DragonBox' is).

And please keep in mind, this is nothing personal and I'm just arguing against your points. I'd rather not derail this thread as I don't see anything more productive coming from our exchange, but I did want to reply.

-Corey

[Kendamu]

The gloriousness that is the Kanzentai Dragon Box Z comparison is now available! It'll make your e-penis grow in all directions!

Just read it, pretty great. And, you're right, my e-penis grew in all directions... including inward!

[VegettoEX]

Gah! I don't know how that typo got through all the spell-checking and proof-readers! *shakes fist* Fixed it earlier this morning, though .

So here's the deal.

For about fifteen years, FUNimation has said to their audience: "Hey, kids. You are just too stupid to watch the show as-is. We are going to, beyond punching-up the script to be hip to the times, create new musical scores that constantly shift to the whims of the current hotness. You are unable to process and handle the show as-is, unlike the rest of the modern world. We just have no faith in you."

For the first time, FUNimation has released a product with absolutely no machismo. There is not a single hint of a lack of faith in their audience, or a lack of understanding of and respect for the product.

Why, if fans are so educated as to understand these marketing practices and stick with the series in such a fulfilling way, would you want to cling to and demand a re-packaging of memories that were specifically created to insult your intelligence?

Innagadadavida, in addition to all that, I think you were also doing a bit of selective reading.

While no fan has a "right" (cue "entitlement complex" discussion here) to their favorite version of the show, we accept and acknowledge that a vocal sub-group of fans, those that are educated about the "orange brick" debacle and still wish to view the series in its intended way, have not received their "definitive" version.

And the end of the day, this is in the "Reviews" section, and not a news post on the home page. You are reading it because you want a review of it from a very specific viewpoint (the reviewer's). You can choose to disagree with reviews; that's fine. Just understand what it is you're criticizing before doing so.

EDIT/UPDATE: Crap! One thing I totally forgot to mention during the show was that FUNimation got back to me with regard to coming on the podcast and talking with us about the franchise and the Dragon Box. Unfortunately, they just cannot do it... right now. They will. Eventually. Sounds like there have been some staff changes recently and they want to give the conversation the time and knowledge it deserves. Keep your pants on, in the meantime .

[Yi Xing Long]

The gloriousness that is the Kanzentai Dragon Box Z comparison is now available! It'll make your e-penis grow in all directions!

As far as the episode count being spread across 42 discs is concerned, I originally thought they would just spread out the last few discs' episodes, resulting in a lower episode count (disc 40-42 with 6 episodes apiece). I only thought of this because it is how Toei handled it; however, it would make much more sense to keep the episode count at 7 episodes per disc, then on the final and 42nd disc there would only be 3 episodes (leaving room for the two TV specials).

This leads me to believe they may actually include the Trunks and Bardock specials on the final disc. I can easily see a one-volume "Dragon Box Z The Movies" (just with Z movies 1-13) since the Japanese set had Z movies 1-13 on 6 discs (with the other 2 containing DB movies 1-3 and the 10th anniversary movie).

If a Dragon Ball Dragon Box is going to be released - assuming that is follows the same conventions of the Dragon Box Z - it would be 4 volumes with 24 discs. this leaves enough room on disc 22 for some special features, and disc 23 and 24 would have more than enough room for the four DB movies.

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Innagadadavida]

For about fifteen years, FUNimation has said to their audience: "Hey, kids. You are just too stupid to watch the show as-is. We are going to, beyond punching-up the script to be hip to the times, create new musical scores that constantly shift to the whims of the current hotness. You are unable to process and handle the show as-is, unlike the rest of the modern world. We just have no faith in you."

For the first time, FUNimation has released a product with absolutely no machismo. There is not a single hint of a lack of faith in their audience, or a lack of understanding of and respect for the product.

Why, if fans are so educated as to understand these marketing practices and stick with the series in such a fulfilling way, would you want to cling to and demand a re-packaging of memories that were specifically created to insult your intelligence?

Innagadadavida, in addition to all that, I think you were also doing a bit of selective reading.

And the end of the day, this is in the "Reviews" section, and not a news post on the home page. You are reading it because you want a review of it from a very specific viewpoint (the reviewer's). You can choose to disagree with reviews; that's fine. Just understand what it is you're criticizing before doing so.

No, I wasn't selectively reading anything. Even with that context, the meaning of that phrase is exactly the same. Are you trying to say that giving dub music fans a bone at first means that anything you say afterwards should be just fine and dandy? Even if it's something insulting?

I completely understand what you were saying. I know FUNimation changed the show because they were afraid kids wouldn't be able to respect the original in the same way. Even if they hadn't outright admitted it, their motives are obvious. It's not right, but that's another story. The point is, people enjoy that version nevertheless, and you're trying to make them feel stupid for it. That's not right.

[JulieYBM]

Well, to be entirely fair to the situation, that FUNimation no longer exists and hasn't since Watson left in...204? 2005? I think any retention of the 'dub score' was, of course, for some sake of 'consistency'. The Dragon Ball team (as indicated by the recent change of staff?) has pretty much been on auto-pilot sense most of the series was in the can. If the Orange Bricks go the way of the singles, and this is something I had hoped Mike and company would discuss, what will the North American fanbase look like in a few years' time without the Nathan Johnson/Bruce Faulconer/Mark Menza scores? What is this new team's plan for the series beyond this point?

[Kendamu]

If the Orange Bricks go the way of the singles, and this is something I had hoped Mike and company would discuss, what will the North American fanbase look like in a few years' time without the Nathan Johnson/Bruce Faulconer/Mark Menza scores? What is this new team's plan for the series beyond this point?

It would take several years for the change to happen in the same way that it took several years for the majority online fanbase to go from "Ocean rules! FUNi sucks," to the exact opposite. After that point, though, the big divide between fans would be DBZ vs. Kai. If it's anything like how "Kai vs. DBZ" is treated around here, then it won't really be that big of a deal.

[VegettoEX]

No, I wasn't selectively reading anything. Even with that context, the meaning of that phrase is exactly the same. Are you trying to say that giving dub music fans a bone at first means that anything you say afterwards should be just fine and dandy? Even if it's something insulting?

I completely understand what you were saying. I know FUNimation changed the show because they were afraid kids wouldn't be able to respect the original in the same way. Even if they hadn't outright admitted it, their motives are obvious. It's not right, but that's another story. The point is, people enjoy that version nevertheless, and you're trying to make them feel stupid for it. That's not right.

I'm with Kunzait on this. The mental-gymnastics necessary to get "VegettoEX is insulting me" out of those statements is a little too much.

I'm not the one you should be mad at. If anything, I've given the fans far more credit than you're giving me credit for. With all the technical aspects detailed, I think I'm actually far more on your side with "Why didn't they include it?" than a lot of my peers. That doesn't mean I like it, that doesn't mean I want it on there, but it means I'm empathizing more than you're allowing yourself to think.

FUNimation, and more specifically, Barry Watson is the one who's told you for over a decade that you're too much of an imbecile to watch the show. Nostalgia is one thing, but yes, you should ask yourself:

Why, if fans are so educated as to understand these marketing practices and stick with the series in such a fulfilling way, would you want to cling to and demand a re-packaging of memories that were specifically created to insult your intelligence?

Or, as written in the review:

To some degree, it almost seems to be to one's personal detriment to continue being a fan of this type of "reversioning" once you realize it was specifically created to cater to the lower-than-lowest-common-denominator. FUNimation's recent re-release of the DragonBall GT TV series, complete with a newly-optional English dub with the original Japanese score (including newly-dubbed versions of the opening and closing themes) was perhaps a precursor to this purist direction for the company and their treatment of the franchise. Up until this point, the DragonBall franchise (and specifically Z) had been FUNimation's only property with this heavy-"reversioning" production. For the first time ever, this is no longer the case.

You're looking to be insulted where you're not actually being insulted. It seems to be a common practice among FUNimation dub fans and their supporters.

If the Orange Bricks go the way of the singles, and this is something I had hoped Mike and company would discuss, what will the North American fanbase look like in a few years' time without the Nathan Johnson/Bruce Faulconer/Mark Menza scores? What is this new team's plan for the series beyond this point?"

You know, on the subject of the musical score, I've seen people (was it penguintruth...?) come out and ask... if you love it ("it" being the Faulconer score) so much, where were you when it was all going down for the first time and these conversations were taking place and actually relevant?

I think we'll have a similar situation many years down the road.

The people that will speak up in love and defense of the show will no longer be talking about a replaced score. Just as Shuki Levy's score has been eroded from collective fandom memory, the Faulconer/Menza/Johnson series of scoring will be equally forgotten (perhaps not to the same degree, but pretty close). Whether or not Kai is a contributing factor in that, I have absolutely no idea. Judging from the Dragon Box versions of the show (and the previous JP-score-with-dub on the GT sets), I'm pretty confident in saying that FUNimation is finally going to stop treating the series as "new hotness", and will allow it to take on the persona of historical significance that it's meant to have.

And you know what? Fans will be cool with that.

[Innagadadavida]

Hmmm... Well, very well then. Perhaps you didn't mean to be insulting with that, and I am being hypersensitive. I apologize for making a big stink again over something small.

The review was informative and it was a good read. My problem wasn't so much with the words that were written, but my perception of the intent behind them. I was wrong for assuming what I did and I'm sorry that VegettoEX and Kunzait_83 had to spell it out for me. I will try to be more levelheaded in the future.

[VegettoEX]

Hmmm... Well, very well then. Perhaps you didn't mean to be insulting with that, and I am being hypersensitive. I apologize for making a big stink again over something small.

It's cool, man. I'm really happy to be challenged on things, especially by people where I know I can have a genuine conversation with them and know that we'll both be listening to each other!

[Saiyajin no Tatsujin]

Good episode. I really enjoyed the Dragon Box review and comparisons.

[Teclo]

I feel like I'm part of some small third faction - I don't like either musical score. The Japanese soundtrack sounds massively cheesy, dated and corny but in twee, innocent way whereas the US soundtrack sounds massively cheesy, dated and corny but in a juvenile "rawk" way.

I totally understand and agree with the argument that the US soundtrack is a sort of hiccup in the process of bringing the series to North American TV screens rather than an integral (and intended) part of the show. I've seen many a British TV show, book or movie be edited around and messed with in order to make it more palatable to a US audience (of course, the people doing the tinkering don't actually check with Mr and Mrs Average American first) so I do understand the anti-Faulconer argument on a level that extends beyond DB and goes right into my very own culture.

That said, in the cases I'm thinking of where things from my culture have been forced to change (or even be totally re-written/re-filmed) for a US audience, I do actually respect the original material and that's what makes it so annoying. Since I don't really like the Japanese soundtrack, I feel myself sort of drifting around, in a near-apathetic state, between the pro- and anti-Faulconer camps.

I don't buy the notion that the track exists because Funi think the US audience are "idiots"; it's not as if only a cultured and intelligent mind can appreciate the often cheap and generic sounding Japanese tracks. The US music was written to appeal to American teenagers, the Japanese music was written to appeal to Japanese children. Neither are recognised in the wider world as being particularly great music so I don't think implications about the people that like them are really relevant. I do acknowledge that the use of music in the US version was pretty heavy-handed and that it, going off memory, was pretty limited in its emotional scope compared to the Japanese music.

If I can try and attach logic to this and try to forget whether or not I care about what particular cheesy (in my humble opinion) music was or wasn't included, I'd say that since there was between 1-1.5GB of empty space on each disc, I can empathise with the fans of the US music simply because Funi could have included the US music at no cost to the people that dislike the tracks. I imagine that from their point of view, it's not so much about "All DBZ releases should have the US music on" but rather more that, like when you buy a game that's been re-dubbed in the US and has lost its Japanese track in the process and you realise that there's enough space on the disc to have both language tracks, they feel that there's something missing for no real reason.

Edit: I do like Cha-La Head-Cha-La, by the way as well as the odd Japanese BGM track but if they weren't associated in my mind with DBZ, I wouldn't. That association is only what Faulconer fans have with his stuff (I wouldn't be able to agree with them if they genuinely believed it was great music besides the emotional association they have).

[Dogasu]

My take on the whole dub track thing is...they probably should have gone with the old dub.

I mean, the thing is...who actually prefers the "dub with Kikuchi's score?" I mean, yes, it has that Japanese score that we fans of the Japanese version love, but it still has every other problem that we have with the dub. The voices and casting choices still don't sound "right." The acting still leaves a lot to be desired. The script is still riddled with inaccuracies and punched-up jokes.

"Krillin's in da house!" is still lame even with an instrumental of "Cha-La Head Cha-La" playing in the background.

We fans of the Japanese version don't like that dub because it's essentially the same as the older dub, and fans of the FUNimation dub don't like it because it doesn't have the Falconer music they're used to. So really...who does it appeal to? What percentage of the fandom is purely "Kikuchi score dub" fans? Who would miss it if it was excluded from the Dragon Box?

Ideally, FUNimation would have redubbed the entire series to their current standards and put that on the Dragon Box. But, of course, that's not even the slightest bit realistic at this point.

If the Dragon Box simply contained the Japanese track and the Falconer English dub, people on both sides would have been happy. As much as I hate the dub, I realize that FUNimation not including it is costing them some sales.


Also,

When you guys pronounce the letter Z as "zed" at the end of the episode, you mention that Canadians and Europeans pronounce the letter as "zed." The thing is...pretty much every English-speaking country in the world that isn't the U.S. pronounces that letter as "zed." From what I can tell, we Americans are the only ones who pronounce that letter as "zee."

In fact, you'll notice that Japan does it too; the title of the show is Doragon Booru Zetto, not Doragon Booru Jii.[/b]

[Teclo]

Just to add to that but I'm sure many/most of the countries in Europe have their own way of saying "z" that may not be "zed" or "zee" since there's only one country in the fifty that make up Europe that speaks English. For example, Italians pronounce PC like "pay chay" rather than "Pee see".

[JulieYBM]

My take on the whole dub track thing is...they probably should have gone with the old dub.

I mean, the thing is...who actually prefers the "dub with Kikuchi's score?" I mean, yes, it has that Japanese score that we fans of the Japanese version love, but it still has every other problem that we have with the dub. The voices and casting choices still don't sound "right." The acting still leaves a lot to be desired. The script is still riddled with inaccuracies and punched-up jokes.

"Krillin's in da house!" is still lame even with an instrumental of "Cha-La Head Cha-La" playing in the background.

We fans of the Japanese version don't like that dub because it's essentially the same as the older dub, and fans of the FUNimation dub don't like it because it doesn't have the Falconer music they're used to. So really...who does it appeal to? What percentage of the fandom is purely "Kikuchi score dub" fans? Who would miss it if it was excluded from the Dragon Box?

Ideally, FUNimation would have redubbed the entire series to their current standards and put that on the Dragon Box. But, of course, that's not even the slightest bit realistic at this point.

If the Dragon Box simply contained the Japanese track and the Falconer English dub, people on both sides would have been happy. As much as I hate the dub, I realize that FUNimation not including it is costing them some sales.


Also,

When you guys pronounce the letter Z as "zed" at the end of the episode, you mention that Canadians and Europeans pronounce the letter as "zed." The thing is...pretty much every English-speaking country in the world that isn't the U.S. pronounces that letter as "zed." From what I can tell, we Americans are the only ones who pronounce that letter as "zee."

In fact, you'll notice that Japan does it too; the title of the show is Doragon Booru Zetto, not Doragon Booru Jii.[/b]

Well, I am a FUNi fan of old. If I feel like listening to the FUNi cast (however badly cast the dub is) I can at least know it's the propoer music I am hearing.