In your opinion, has Kai been a success?

Raki · Post by **Raki** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:55 pm

I'd care more about Kai if Toei started with Dragonball and reanimated the whole fucking thing.

ManyFaces · Post by **ManyFaces** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:26 am

Couldn't of said it better myself, Raki. The opening is just awesome, but other than that, there's no point in even bothering yourself to follow Kai.

I think it's rather sad how they didn't reanimate the show... what are they thinking? It looks like all they intend to do is try to get a younger audience (with fat wallets) into the show.

obiwan23s · Post by **obiwan23s** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:12 am

ManyFaces wrote:Couldn't of said it better myself, Raki. The opening is just awesome, but other than that, there's no point in even bothering yourself to follow Kai.

I think it's rather sad how they didn't reanimate the show... what are they thinking? It looks like all they intend to do is try to get a younger audience (with fat wallets) into the show.

It's a bit of a stretch to think they'd reanimate the whole show. Seriously. It's ridiculous how many people come to this conclusion about Kai without considering the cost of animating Z from scratch with modern animation techniques.

Honestly, the best bet for everyone wishing for a revamp of Z would be Kai doing so well that Toei is able to greenlight another film, but even that is unlikely. This is basically just the best they could do with the funds given to touch up the Z footage for HD and do a few new OP/ED videos as well as the redrawn scenes.

Not saying I don't agree. Reanimated Z would have been amazing and awesome, but it's just not a realistic expectation. The closest thing I can think of to that happening is the Gundam SEED series practically being a copy of the original 1979 Gundam series for most of the show until going in its own direction for the climax and ending (which even still featured some plot elements and other themes).

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:49 am

With the audience that kai is getting I am willing to bet that, if they reanimated the show, the audience and ratings would be higher still.

And since kai is always on the weekly top ten of ratings in Japan, and a lot of modern animes are not, but still make enough money to continue the broadcasting and have profit, I think that Dragon Ball reanimated would still make much profit even with much higher costs.

The point is... It probably wouldn`t make as much profit as kai which has much less costs and still keeps an excellent rating. But it would make profit. Much of it.

Toei just wanted the solution that would bring them more profit and less risks. And so kai was born. Yes, the reason why we have kai and not a reanimated Dragon Ball is greed and lack of courage from Toei`s part.

And I believe most people are able to see this and so they dislike kai.

(And saying that Toei didn`t know if a reanimated Dragon Ball would make profit I think its naive. They have market prospects to tell them that and they are more accurate than we think. But the same market prospects probably told them that, with less risks, they would probably make more profit with something like kai)

Raki · Post by **Raki** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:27 am

Dragonball is practically a billion dollar franchise worldwide. There is no reason for Toei to be reusing animation from 20 years ago in an effort to get new audiences.

Sprite Satan · Post by **Sprite Satan** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:30 pm

What I don't get and perhaps someone more familiar with Japanese TV can fill me in on this, is that GT regularly pulled a 12 to 15 share (okay, it dipped under 10 twice in 64 episodes) and it got canned but Kai does a little worse and its still the hot new thing. Am I missing something?

Sure, GT was balls but I doubt Toei went "Hey, GT is pulling in a 15 share, but it is balls so let's can it." and now go "Hey, Kai is pulling in sub-GT ratings but it's okay, so let's keep it."

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:51 pm

Sprite Satan wrote:What I don't get and perhaps someone more familiar with Japanese TV can fill me in on this, is that GT regularly pulled a 12 to 15 share (okay, it dipped under 10 twice in 64 episodes) and it got canned but Kai does a little worse and its still the hot new thing. Am I missing something?

Sure, GT was balls but I doubt Toei went "Hey, GT is pulling in a 15 share, but it is balls so let's can it." and now go "Hey, Kai is pulling in sub-GT ratings but it's okay, so let's keep it."

1. GT was in prime time; Kai is Sunday morning.
2. A lot more competition sprang up in the past twelve years.

StrangebuttsPHD · Post by **StrangebuttsPHD** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:41 pm

I don't care for what little I've seen of it. The whole thing seems like a wasted opportunity to me.

YouTube · Post by **Hujio** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:13 pm

Sprite Satan wrote:What I don't get and perhaps someone more familiar with Japanese TV can fill me in on this, is that GT regularly pulled a 12 to 15 share (okay, it dipped under 10 twice in 64 episodes) and it got canned but Kai does a little worse and its still the hot new thing. Am I missing something?

Sure, GT was balls but I doubt Toei went "Hey, GT is pulling in a 15 share, but it is balls so let's can it." and now go "Hey, Kai is pulling in sub-GT ratings but it's okay, so let's keep it."

Like YBM said, GT was in prime time, airing on Wednesdays at 7:00. But the big thing is that Z, for most of the series, was pulling in rating shares between 20-25% and at certain points got as high as ~28%. However, by the end of Z, the ratings were starting to drop off a little, so it was obvious that fans were starting to lose interest. When GT first started airing, it stayed up around 19%, just about where Z left off in the ratings. But it quickly dropped down to ~14%, and at some points was getting ~9%. Basically, the series' had run their course after being broadcast for almost 12 years straight. That's why it got canned. Fans just weren't interested anymore, and the ratings showed it.

Nowadays, anime doesn't really premiere in prime time quite as much, and those that do don't seem to do too well in the ratings. For instance, Bleach airs on Tuesdays at 6:00 and Naruto Shippuden airs on Thursdays at 7:30. Both, especially Bleach, rarely if ever make it in the top 10. Kai however, is consistently in the top 10. So why would they can it?

You just have to realize that it's a different time than when Z/GT were airing, so you can't simply compare the numbers and conclude Kai is doing worse than GT.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:02 pm

ManyFaces wrote:there's no point in even bothering yourself to follow Kai.

It's DBZ with 99% of the filler cut out. That makes it the best thing to happen to the series ever.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:03 pm

Rocketman wrote:It's DBZ with 99% of the filler cut out. That makes it the best thing to happen to the series ever.

Heheh, I'd have to agree with this. The very minor problems that Kai has absolutely PALE in comparison to the ones from DBZ it's fixed.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:12 pm

I want to up and agree with that sentiment, but my increasing attachment to Z's music and cast had made Kai seem like less then it could be.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:17 pm

Rocketman wrote:
ManyFaces wrote:there's no point in even bothering yourself to follow Kai.
It's DBZ with 99% of the filler cut out. That makes it the best thing to happen to the series ever.

What? The filler can`t be fastforwarded? The fastforward button is almost all that stands between DBZ and DBZ without filler.

Besides, the story already exists without filler and in overall better art. Its called the dragonball manga. We already know what`s filler and what`s not thanks to it. We don`t need a "new" anime, that is DBZ without filler, to show us what DBZ looks like without the filler parts. We can imagine that pretty easily. There`s nothing new in doing that.

They just should have made a total remake of the anime. Not just the audio (which is pretty much all that is worthwhile in kai) and a few edits and effects in the video.

What an opportunity lost...

MCDaveG · Post by **MCDaveG** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:30 pm

I reconsidered my opinion, Kai is so boring........

KaiserNeko · Post by **KaiserNeko** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:56 pm

rereboy wrote:
Rocketman wrote:
ManyFaces wrote:there's no point in even bothering yourself to follow Kai.
It's DBZ with 99% of the filler cut out. That makes it the best thing to happen to the series ever.
What? The filler can`t be fastforwarded? The fastforward button is almost all that stands between DBZ and DBZ without filler.

Besides, the story already exists without filler and in overall better art. Its called the dragonball manga. We already know what`s filler and what`s not thanks to it. We don`t need a "new" anime, that is DBZ without filler, to show us what DBZ looks like without the filler parts. We can imagine that pretty easily. There`s nothing new in doing that.

Isn't most of the filler littered throughout the show? Wouldn't you have to, you know, keep the remote in your hand at all times? What if you fast forward over a scene, then have to go back? Wouldn't you have to do it every other minute? Wouldn't that totally take you out of the experience?

Sorry, I just effing hate that argument...

As for the other, well yeah. Manga's better. I don't see why anyone is bitching about Kai, Toei was NEVER going to just re-animate the show. That would take a lot of money, time, effort, work-hours, people... It may not have paid off. This? Almost guaranteed to.

And some people would rather watch T.V. than read comics. Is there something so wrong with that?

The Time Traveller · Post by **The Time Traveller** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:51 pm

I'mma stick up for filler, I like it, it's one of the things that makes the series so enjoyable, seeing characters do things slightly insane and retarded things, my favourite was the Orphans in Space.

It made me want to write a fan fic about what happens next for them... which I'm considering at the moment...

There's also the driving episode, which was full of QUALITY animation...

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:39 am

The Time Traveller wrote:I'mma stick up for filler, I like it, it's one of the things that makes the series so enjoyable

Five minutes.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:42 am

Rocketman wrote:
The Time Traveller wrote:I'mma stick up for filler, I like it, it's one of the things that makes the series so enjoyable
Five minutes.

Garlic Jr.
Goten and Trunks peeing on rocks during their fathers' duel to the death.
Yamcha beating Olibu.
Anything involving Higher Dragon.

Yes, there's some good filler sprinkled here and there. Like the driving episode, Goku's SSj2 fight with Kid Buu, some extended portions of Goku and Majin Vegeta's fight, and so on. But for the most part, we're better off without it.

penguintruth · Post by **penguintruth** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:47 am

Some of the filler, stuff like Gohan's wilderness training, the gathering of Goku's friends after his death and their training, is great material, helps to humanize the characters more, and makes the destination mean more when they get to where they're going.

Other filler, however, just serves to do nothing but fill time, as the name implies.

Yes, obviously the filler in DBZ is unnecessary, since it wasn't in the manga, but at times it helps to flesh out the experience a little more. Not that Toei knows something Toriyama didn't, but it helps when you're watching a television program.

I find myself liking Kai, but missing some of the filler from DBZ, because some of it was pretty damn good. Sure, there's a lot of crap, like the Fake Namek bit or Bulma with the GIANT ENEMY CRAB, but there was a lot of amusing or well-thought-up material too, like the orphans in space, or later on with Goku and Piccolo's driver's tests and Tao Pai Pai trying to fool Goku with puzzle rings.

The "filler" I can't stand is a lot of the waiting around in combat. A stare down does add a bit of tension, but you can only go on so long watching clouds pass overhead before the mood is spoiled.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:17 am

KaiserNeko wrote:
Isn't most of the filler littered throughout the show? Wouldn't you have to, you know, keep the remote in your hand at all times? What if you fast forward over a scene, then have to go back? Wouldn't you have to do it every other minute? Wouldn't that totally take you out of the experience?

Sorry, I just effing hate that argument...

As for the other, well yeah. Manga's better. I don't see why anyone is bitching about Kai, Toei was NEVER going to just re-animate the show. That would take a lot of money, time, effort, work-hours, people... It may not have paid off. This? Almost guaranteed to.

And some people would rather watch T.V. than read comics. Is there something so wrong with that?

What kai is doing is getting rid of all the filler that they can get rid of through editing, with the footage that they have. The filler that they can`t get rid of through editing, they keep it.

I know fastforwarding parts is boring and a pain, but is that really a justification for a new anime? I mean, thats all that takes to make a new anime? Something that could have been done by anyone with a fastforward button or a video edit program to cut out those parts is good enough to be a remake? C´mon...

I`m not agaisn`t a new anime and I didn`t say anime isn`t a very different experience from manga, but c`mon... What they are doing with kai is just unnecessary.

And that argument of a true remake not paying off... Yeah, righ... The cost of a true remake would be the same cost of a new modern anime. And many modern anime don´t have the ratings that kai is getting and they still get enough money to not be cancelled. Just look at the ratings that kai is having. Always in the top 10 in Japan. Always. And it isn`t even out of Japan yet. You think all modern anime achieve that? And they somehow manage to cover their costs and have some profit.

Toei has market research and prospects and those things are more accurate then we think. They knew it would pay of. I mean, dragon ball is a global franchise. A total remake of the anime would have a crazy amount of success. Even more than kai is getting. They wouldn`t lose.

However maybe they wouldn`t make as much money as they would with kai, which does very well and has less costs.

Its the same logic of a company that sells an inferior quality product because they did the research and they probably wouldn`t make as much money with a good quality product.

This is probably what happened, but many fans instead of wanting the good quality product, they just are satisfied with the inferior quality product.
I for one am not, especially not seeing the point in any change that they made (except the audio, but that is just not good enough for me).

Kai is a success in ratings and a success in revitalizing the market interest in the franchise. Other than that, I can`t consider it a success at all.

Kanzenshuu

In your opinion, has Kai been a success?

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