Can someone please tell me how Yamcha was beating Olibu?

[Bussani]

I think the point is that his estimate of what Goku could potentially reach would be an upper limit, and that his power could fall anywhere in that range. Therefore Yamcha could be anywhere between 8,000 and <insert maximum number here> and still be mistakable for Goku.

Keep in mind that Goku went years between the 23rd tournament and Raditz's arrival without gaining much power at all, so it's not like Gero would think Goku had to increase to his maximum estimate.

[Godo]

But the fact is, that Dr. Gero was at least in the 80,000,000 - 100,000,000 range and Android 19 even higher.
Why would they make themselves so strong if they didn't expect Goku to be at least in the millions?
Of course, they didn't expect the Super Saiya-jin, but nevertheless, they were so strong that it would be a huge overkill to even fight Goku.
They did expect him to grow with a huge amount of power. But not as much as he did.

[Bussani]

Uh... What's the point in an upper estimate that Goku could potentially reach if they weren't going to make themselves stronger than it? My point is that Goku didn't have to meet their estimate, it was just a number that they knew they'd have to be stronger than to be sure they'd win.

[Yamcha_krillin]

I have Yamcha over a million in the Android saga.

#20 said that if he absorbed the power of the the humans and Piccolo he would be abel to defeat SSJ Vegeta easilly.Yamcha increased his power so much after Kami's with normal earth gravity that i see why wouldn't he increase his power as much until the Android saga.

[Xyex]

On top of that, I always got the impression that they'd only just arrived on Kaio's planet when Kaio called Goku up to tell him, which was sometime in the 6 day trip to Namek. In fact, filler agrees with this by showing that he hadn't even started training them yet, didn't it? They had to catch Bubbles first in filler, which happened after Kaio told Goku about them being there. So...if you put all the filler together, Yamcha went from losing to a Saibaiman to able to fight the Ginyu Force in something like 6 days, plus however much time passed between Goku arriving on Namek and that filler from happening.

Yeah, it seems to indicate that Yamcha and the others had only just arrived, and Goku's only on Namek for a day, so they only got 6 days of training before the Ginyu filler scene.

Dr. Gero didn't know about North Kaio. So therefore, he would assume that Goku's increase from that one year would at least stay the same for the subsequent years.

Knowing about King Kai or not has no bearing on anything. Gero DOES know that Goku died against Raditz and was revived with more power than he had before dying. Thus Goku's growth that year would be considered an aberration related to his time dead and not something that would be repeated.

Just because of that he loses his fights and is a underdog, it doesn't mean that he has to be weak.

No one's saying that Yamcha's weak because he's an underdog or gets his butt kicked a lot. We're saying he's the underdog and that he gets his butt kicked a lot because he's weak.

200,000 by the arrival of Dr. Gero and his gang was already too little to be able to help out, so it isn't impossible that Yamcha was that strong, since we don't know.

What would or wouldn't be of any help doesn't matter. Just because he could be at 200,000 at that point and still get his ass kicked doesn't mean he is or should be at that level.

But the fact is, that Dr. Gero was at least in the 80,000,000 - 100,000,000 range and Android 19 even higher.

They weren't even close to that level. 19's power, after absorbing Goku's Kamehameha and then his energy, would be around 66,000,000 by my figuring (a number I reverse engineered from the powers of 17 and 18, whom I deduced to a fairly accurate level via statements and displays). Keep in mind this is after taking most of Goku's ki. I doubt that Gero's even over 40,000,000.

Why would they make themselves so strong if they didn't expect Goku to be at least in the millions?
Of course, they didn't expect the Super Saiya-jin, but nevertheless, they were so strong that it would be a huge overkill to even fight Goku.

Gero knows about Kaioken and about being able to channel power into bigger attacks and about the Spirit Bomb. So, Gero computes Goku's power to increase to, say, 60,000 by the time of the Android Saga. Toss in a Kaioken (he can do up to x4 before going into space, so let's say Gero assumes Goku can now do a x30) and we now have Goku at 1,800,000. Now, Goku's base power against Raditz was 416 and his Kamehameha was 900 something and still going up. Let's just round it off to 1,200 just to make this easier. So, 1,000 is 2.8(and a bunch of numbers)x stronger than him, so repeat that with his Kaioken power and you now have a Kamehameha of just short of 5,200,000.

Gero then figures that 5x more than that would be enough to compensate for any unknown factors that boost Goku's power, plus add in ki absorption as a further defense. (Not that it really worked, but oh well.) Anyway, now we've got a Gero with a power of 26,000,000. A power in the tens millions for dealing with a Goku with a power of 60,000. Which means even if Gero did have a power of 100,000,000 that he still wouldn't be expecting Goku to be more than 231,000, which still isn't in the millions~

I have Yamcha over a million in the Android saga.

Any (living) human anywhere near a million, ever, is crazy.

[Bussani]

#20 said that if he absorbed the power of the the humans and Piccolo he would be abel to defeat SSJ Vegeta easilly.

He thought that if he added everyone's power to his own he'd be able to win. Yamcha wasn't even there at the time, though. And frankly, he also thought he'd be able to beat Piccolo after absorbing his energy and adding it to his own, but Piccolo creamed him, so I wouldn't say Gero had half a clue what he was talking about.

Yamcha increased his power so much after Kami's with normal earth gravity that i see why wouldn't he increase his power as much until the Android saga.

For starters, we don't know how much Yamcha improved between leaving Kami's Palace and being killed by the Saibaiman.

More importantly, I think it's wrong to assume that training time is the only factor to consider. Gaining strength with small weights is easy at first, but you eventually outgrow them. I mean, once x10 Earth's gravity is nothing to you, improving under 1g is going to be a lot harder. It would be like a body-builder going back to beginner weights.

You can't just do the same training every day and expect to get the same results forever. I think Dragon Ball shows this from the very start, with major improvements always coming from finding new masters, new training methods, and later from transformations and fusions. Hell, most of Yamcha's improvements through the whole series came from doing the exact same training as Goku, just a step behind him (he trained under Roshi, then Karin, then Kami, then Kaio).

[Maphisto86]

I don't see it as unreasonable to assume at least Tenshinhan's power level reached somewhere in the millions because he never stopped training whereas Kuririn and Yamcha did. Also, how would Tenshinhan be able to help at all against Cell or Majin Buu? Granted he used the kikoho technique both times but he would still need to be in that range to be effective against both of these powerful foes.

On topic however it is unlikely that Yamcha got past 1,000,000 if he had decided to quit training by the Buu saga. We don't know for how long though Yamcha had stopped training for in the last seven years. It could have been since the end of the Cell saga or less then a year before the world tournament. There are just so many unknowns and we are also talking about a gag piece of filler in the anime so it is hard to judge whether we can take this seriously or no. For the sake of argument we should but it helps to keep the fact that it is "gag filler" in mind.

[Olympian]

Gero didn't know how strong Goku was on Namek. He made a guess based on Goku's increases in the past (which Goku far surpassed on his way to and on Namek, even without Super Saiyan). All Gero had really was "he should be somewhere between this strong if he doesn't train much at all, and this strong if his increase is similar to what we've seen before." Yamcha could be weaker then Ginyu and he could still mistake him for Goku.

He did a mathematical guess, based on Goku`s training pattern. And you are correct in point out that Goku had times where he increased his power level faster than his usual standard, but then again, hey, so did Yamcha and the others.

Given how one of the traits in Shonen Manga is to make the heroes generally above the previous enemy arcs, even if by the smallest of margins, to make them able to stand two toes against stronger opponents, i do not see why Yamcha had to be weaker than the Ginyu at all. He does not even need to be stronger than the Captain, but surely he can compete with the weaker members.

No, we weren't, which is part of the issue. The last time we actually see Yamcha do something is against the Saibamen. He just sort of sits around playing cards with King Kai during Namek

When he was not training.

and then sits around playing cards with Puar for the rest of the series.

Unless he is out searching for Cell, or fighting Cell Jrs.

So...if you put all the filler together, Yamcha went from losing to a Saibaiman to able to fight the Ginyu Force in something like 6 days, plus however much time passed between Goku arriving on Namek and that filler from happening.

Unless Toryama remade the whole scene, Yamcha never lost against the Saibaimen. I never see anyone claiming how Tenshinhan lost, when he also did not killed his enemy and was probably lucky enough, that Vegeta blew up the little thing before he could surprise him, like he managed to do with Yamcha.

Yamcha got killed, by more than one factor: his overconfidence and Vegeta distracting him, but being a less powerful fighter was not one of them. Like Ten, he categorically proved he was stronger, and unlike the Anime (ironic because Toei actually made him more powerful in other scenes), the Saibaimen did not touched him once in that fight.

What would or wouldn't be of any help doesn't matter. Just because he could be at 200,000 at that point and still get his ass kicked doesn't mean he is or should be at that level.

You cannot really tell. But the "fight" on itself is a bad example, since there was no actual exchange to make a comparation. Yamcha did not started attacking them and got his ass kicked, he barely had time to figured out who they were when one of Gero`s hands started to steal his energy. Now Piccolo got it worse. he knew who they were, knew from yamcha that they could steal energy and still needed Gohan`s help, to stop them from getting his energy stolen.

I am not trying to imply that in the Manga Yamcha ever made it at Freeza or anything, no Human did (kikoho maybe, but Ten himself is another matter), only that it would not surprise me one bit if he could compete with most of the Ginyu by that time in the published work.

Now, the Anime is another thing altogether. Yamcha was nearly always stronger than Krillin, and the rival of Tenshinhan inside the little group. The power levels are different.

[Rocketman]

Given how one of the traits in Shonen Manga is to make the heroes generally above the previous enemy arcs, even if by the smallest of margins, to make them able to stand two toes against stronger opponents, i do not see why Yamcha had to be weaker than the Ginyu at all. He does not even need to be stronger than the Captain, but surely he can compete with the weaker members.

Like... Gurd?

[Olympian]

Given how one of the traits in Shonen Manga is to make the heroes generally above the previous enemy arcs, even if by the smallest of margins, to make them able to stand two toes against stronger opponents, i do not see why Yamcha had to be weaker than the Ginyu at all. He does not even need to be stronger than the Captain, but surely he can compete with the weaker members.

Like... Gurd?

What, you think he would not

[Xyex]

I don't see it as unreasonable to assume at least Tenshinhan's power level reached somewhere in the millions because he never stopped training whereas Kuririn and Yamcha did.

Because the concept of anyone hitting the millions without a 'I get power out of my ass' skill is absurd in and of itself. There is a reason that Freeza's never had to use his 3rd form prior to Namek, after all. Yamcha, Krillin, and Tien proved that humans can be a high tier race in terms of power, when given the right advantages, but none of them were even given enough of them to get anywhere near 1st form Freeza's level.

Also, how would Tenshinhan be able to help at all against Cell or Majin Buu? Granted he used the kikoho technique both times but he would still need to be in that range to be effective against both of these powerful foes.

He used the super Kikoho against them, which is an entirely different beast that the normal Kikoho. IMO his statement about making use of King Kai's teachings 'in his own way' creates a very real probability that the Super Kikoho makes use of the Kaioken for extra power. There may even be elements of the Spirit Bomb incorported into it, though the latter is a little less like. Then let's add in the factor that while Tien's attack stalled Semi-Perfect Cell it did zero damage. It could have likely killed 1st form Freeza and did serious damage to 2nd form Freeza but I doubt we'd see much in the way of injury to anyone/thing stronger than that. It's certainly not high enogh to do damage to the Androids, despite pushing Cell around, or he'd have given it a go against one of them.

Given how one of the traits in Shonen Manga is to make the heroes generally above the previous enemy arcs, even if by the smallest of margins, to make them able to stand two toes against stronger opponents, i do not see why Yamcha had to be weaker than the Ginyu at all. He does not even need to be stronger than the Captain, but surely he can compete with the weaker members.

This often holds true for the main character but almost never for the secondary characters. At the start of Z not even Tien was comprable to King Piccolo yet, and Yamcha still wasn't even as strong as Tao.

You cannot really tell. But the "fight" on itself is a bad example, since there was no actual exchange to make a comparation. Yamcha did not started attacking them and got his ass kicked, he barely had time to figured out who they were when one of Gero`s hands started to steal his energy. Now Piccolo got it worse. he knew who they were, knew from yamcha that they could steal energy and still needed Gohan`s help, to stop them from getting his energy stolen.

Except that Piccolo then turned around and wholly trounced Gero with no problems what so ever, so he didn't actually need Gohan's help.

[Rocketman]

That is something people need to remember too. Captain Ginyu was the top dog in the whole universe besides Freeza, Freeza himself says as much when fighting Goku. A power level of 100,000 is enough to stomp all over the entire living realm. Hell, Raditz was useful enough to be kept around, and he was in the 1000s (Oozaru ~10,000).

Goku was the eleventh-strongest guy in the universe when he showed up to fight Nappa, a human walking around with a power level of 20,000 is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of.

[Xyex]

That is something people need to remember too. Captain Ginyu was the top dog in the whole universe besides Freeza, Freeza himself says as much when fighting Goku. A power level of 100,000 is enough to stomp all over the entire living realm. Hell, Raditz was useful enough to be kept around, and he was in the 1000s (Oozaru ~10,000).

Goku was the eleventh-strongest guy in the universe when he showed up to fight Nappa, a human walking around with a power level of 20,000 is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of.

Actually, Goku would have been the ninth strongest when he showed up to fight Nappa, if we go by the maximum amount of power he could muster (32,000 at Kaioken x4) and include Cold in the list. The best in the universe are as follows:

1) 100% Freeza - 120,000,000
2) Cold - ~2,000,000
3) Oozaru Vegeta - 180,000
4) Ginyu - 120,000
5) Nail - 42,000
6/7/8) Burter/Jeice/Recoome - ~40,000
9) Kaioken x4 Goku - 32,000

That's better. >>

[Rocketman]

Actually, Goku would have been the eighth strongest when he showed up to fight Nappa, if we go by the maximum amount of power he could muster (32,000 at Kaioken x4) and include Cold in the list. The best in the universe are as follows:

1) 100% Freeza - 120,000,000
2) Cold - ~2,000,000
3) Oozaru Vegeta - 180,000
4) Ginyu - 120,000
5/6/7) Burter/Jeice/Recoome - ~40,000
Kaioken x4 Goku - 32,000

You forgot Nail at 42,000.

I don't think KKx4 should be included, though, since it was only enough for one attack that barely phased someone at 18,000.

[Xyex]

Actually, Goku would have been the eighth strongest when he showed up to fight Nappa, if we go by the maximum amount of power he could muster (32,000 at Kaioken x4) and include Cold in the list. The best in the universe are as follows:

1) 100% Freeza - 120,000,000
2) Cold - ~2,000,000
3) Oozaru Vegeta - 180,000
4) Ginyu - 120,000
5/6/7) Burter/Jeice/Recoome - ~40,000
Kaioken x4 Goku - 32,000

You forgot Nail at 42,000.

I don't think KKx4 should be included, though, since it was only enough for one attack that barely phased someone at 18,000.

Oops. >>

And as for barely phasing Vegeta, I think most of the power got 'burned off' just getting through Vegeta's attack. Plus, Goku let up as soon as it hit Vegeta. I'm sure if Goku had managed to keep it going Veggie-head would have been incinerated. The way I see it, KKx4 Kamehameha = 40,000. Gallick Gun = 32,000. Amount of 'power' that hit Vegeta = 8,000.

[Bussani]

Unless Toryama remade the whole scene, Yamcha never lost against the Saibaimen. I never see anyone claiming how Tenshinhan lost, when he also did not killed his enemy and was probably lucky enough, that Vegeta blew up the little thing before he could surprise him, like he managed to do with Yamcha.

Yamcha got killed, by more than one factor: his overconfidence and Vegeta distracting him, but being a less powerful fighter was not one of them. Like Ten, he categorically proved he was stronger, and unlike the Anime (ironic because Toei actually made him more powerful in other scenes), the Saibaimen did not touched him once in that fight.

To be honest, I was using 'losing to a Saibaiman' merely to indicate that point in time. The point is that according to filler, Yamcha somehow arrived at Kaio's planet weaker than Goku had left it, then trained for roughly the same 6 days as Goku did on his way to Namek. Despite Goku abusing zenkais, senzu beans and 100 times Earth's gravity to get the strength to stand up to the Ginyu Force, Yamcha, who started weaker than Goku, probably gained more than him in those 6 days in order to catch up and also be a match for them.

[Olympian]

This often holds true for the main character but almost never for the secondary characters. At the start of Z not even Tenshinhan was comprable to King Piccolo yet, and Yamcha still wasn't even as strong as Tao.

..uh, which Tao?

Tenshinhan in the 23rd Budokai did not faired that badly against a much stronger Goku, Was he really that weaker than King Piccolo? Anyway, if they had not increased so much in so little time for the Vegeta coming, i could agree with you, but they did. And Toryama kept using them, despite them not being major characters anymore.

I do not think he would have used them, for example, against the Cell Jrs, if they were really weaker than the Ginyu. I mean, how strong those little bastards seemed to you, despite holding back?

Except that Piccolo then turned around and wholly trounced Gero with no problems what so ever, so he didn't actually need Gohan's help.

Whether he had enough energy to still take Gero is not the question. Gohan still came to his rescue.

To be honest, I was using 'losing to a Saibaiman' merely to indicate that point in time. The point is that according to filler, Yamcha somehow arrived at Kaio's planet weaker than Goku had left it, then trained for roughly the same 6 days as Goku did on his way to Namek. Despite Goku abusing zenkais, senzu beans and 100 times Earth's gravity to get the strength to stand up to the Ginyu Force, Yamcha, who started weaker than Goku, probably gained more than him in those 6 days in order to catch up and also be a match for them.

We know Yamcha was considerable stronger than Goku when he arrived at Kaio and for that reason he likely (probably, actually) did the trials faster than Goku as well, as did the others.

Filler wise, he was always stronger than what he showed to be in the Manga, because he had more scenes. Manga wise, i think he got there in the final stage of the Cell arc. Certanly stronger than the weaker members and competitive against the strongest. The main doubt is how he would compare with the Captain, when Krillin with a power up did as well as he did, because the Captain was still assimilating Goku`s body.

[Xyex]

..uh, which Tao?

Oh, sorry. The cyborg version. Yamcha was certainly stronger than organic Tao, he was almost as powerful as Tien from the 22nd Budokai.

Tenshinhan in the 23rd Budokai did not faired that badly against a much stronger Goku, Was he really that weaker than King Piccolo?

Until Goku took off the weights, sure. Once the weights came off Goku had complete control of the fight. And if you go by the Daizenshuu King Piccolo's power was 260. Tien's was 250 at the start of DBZ.

Toryama kept using them, despite them not being major characters anymore.

I wouldn't say he used them, they were just there. And they were written out pretty fast, really. They went from fighters to background characters to cameos over the course of DBZ.

I do not think he would have used them, for example, against the Cell Jrs, if they were really weaker than the Ginyu. I mean, how strong those little bastards seemed to you, despite holding back?

The humans were there at the Cell Games so you can't expect them to just be ignored. They're friends of Gohan's as well so of course the Cell Jr.s would go for them. And if Hercule can survive blows from Cell and Buu I'm sure the humans can take a few hits from Cell Jr.s who aren't trying to kill them.

[Maphisto86]

Yeah good points all around Xyex and c.o. It's hard to tell though where the human characters where after power levels where phased out and especially so during the Buu saga. Yet the point you brought up about Tenshinhan using a super kikoho is a good point concerning how techniques can help supplemant a lack of strength or power. All and all it kinda sucks that "human" characters became pretty much obsolete by the Freeza and Cell arcs but it makes sense in the context of the story. Even the most powerful characters like Goku, Vegeta, Gohan or Piccolo had to overcome huge hurdles to achieve the level of power they ended up commanding.

[Bussani]

We know Yamcha was considerable stronger than Goku when he arrived at Kaio and for that reason he likely (probably, actually) did the trials faster than Goku as well, as did the others.

But the 'trials' were part of the training, not some time wasting right of passage. Being able to do them faster makes them pointless.

More importantly, the idea that they could start much weaker than Goku, spend the same amount of days training, then end up in the same power range as him after what he put himself through, is insane.