A fun Vegeta "What-If?"

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Immortality is not interchangeable with invulnerability.

But he will be invulnerable to death.

[Savage68]

Which has nothing to do with what happens before he would 'die'.

Blowing his head into a million pieces should effectively kill him. Maybe his soul won't pass, but he'd still be - for all intents and purposes - dead.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Which has nothing to do with what happens before he would 'die'.

Blowing his head into a million pieces should effectively kill him. Maybe his soul won't pass, but he'd still be - for all intents and purposes - dead.

Immortatly means you can't die, no matter if your head gets blown up into a million pieces.

If someone were to get a sword and try to cut off someone's head who was immortal, the sword would probably break upon contact with that person's head.

[Cold Skin]

Immortality is not interchangeable with invulnerability.

That's right. Someone immortal can still be wounded, on the contrary of someone invulnerable.
However, from the definition, it seems they can't die no matter what happens. True immortality is not logical, it's magic.

Immortality as in the Highlander series is not true immortality: they can actually be killed, it's just that it must be done in a specific way. They're not immortals, they're just hard to kill.

Immortality as in Torchwood is more like real, magic immortality: he can be hurt, but never die no matter what, for some reason if the body is decapitated or tear to pieces, it'll just magically re-grow. So there is REALLY no way he could die, as implied by the definition and morphology of the word itself. However, there would seem to be a power of regeneration associated in that series, as immortality might not protect from mutilation as long as it's not deadly...

Or, and that's most disturbing, immortality would result in him keeping being alive without a head or in pieces, which is hardly believable (no brain, no eyes, no mouth...) but hey, once again: immortality is just magic, it magically makes you never die. But I guess the most logical would be that you can't be put in those states to begin with, it's more logical.

The most logical way I'd see it: the person can't be decapitated or tear to pieces... or they'd live without a head, which is gross and hardly believable since there's no brain attached, but again: magic. So Vegeta decapitated or tear to pieces, I think:
- either his body would fully, magically regenerate...
- ...or he simply can't be decapitated or tear to pieces, he's body being "protected" against that by some way or another: maybe his neck would be made impossible to cut.

Anyway, whatever we all choose to interpret, true immortality is what its name implies: absolutely ZERO way you can die when you have it, which is illogical, but that's the point, that's why it's not supposed to exist and no one's supposed to have it unless using the force that defies logic: magic.

[Maphisto86]

Vegeta's immortality would help him with the zenkais, and he would just zenkai his way to the top.

Zenkais become insignificant after a certain point. He wouldn't get to Goku's SSj power, at least.

Sorry to get a little off topic but I am still confused about what source stated this is so. Is it in the Daizenshuu? It is hinted at in the story since zenkai's no longer play a significant role in the story. I guess a Saiyan's ability to recieve zenkai's perhaps stops a little bit before you can achieve SSJ just to get you to that level. Still, it would be better in a practical way if Saiyans always had the ability to get stronger after recovery from a savage beat down but I digress it's the same weird problem Saiyans have with their tails. I guess you can't have everything!

On the topic of immortality, I would assume Vegeta would have recieved the same thing as Garlic Jr and basically be unkillable in some fashion. In a lot of fiction, immortality is often synonymous with invulnerability but as Savage68 has pointed out many times it is really not synonymous in real life contexts. I think Cold Skin pretty much summed up what would happen to Vegeta if he recieved his wish and fought Freeza. He would either magically regenerate or be invulnerable to harm.

If we want to get literal, one of the meanings of the word "Immortal" as identified by the Oxford English Dictionary Online is: "In wider sense: Not liable to perish or decay; everlasting, imperishable, unfading, incorruptible." Would this not suggest invulnerability to lasting physical damage?

[rereboy]

Which has nothing to do with what happens before he would 'die'.

Blowing his head into a million pieces should effectively kill him. Maybe his soul won't pass, but he'd still be - for all intents and purposes - dead.

When someone is brought back with the Dragon Balls their wounds are automatically healed. If they weren`t, they would just die again or they would be alive with holes in their bodies zombie style.

In the same way, I imagine that if the Dragon Balls granted immortality to someone, that someone would automatically be brought back by magic everytime he/she died. Like a perpetual wish to be brought back to life.

And since the wounds are gone everytime someone is brought back by the Dragon Balls, in that case, the wounds would also be gone.

So that person woundn`t be invulnerable, but he/she wouldn`t die because he/she would automatically be brought back everytime he/she died, with his/her body whole.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Vegeta's immortality would help him with the zenkais, and he would just zenkai his way to the top.

Zenkais become insignificant after a certain point. He wouldn't get to Goku's SSj power, at least.

Sorry to get a little off topic but I am still confused about what source stated this is so. Is it in the Daizenshuu? It is hinted at in the story since zenkai's no longer play a significant role in the story. I guess a Saiyan's ability to recieve zenkai's perhaps stops a little bit before you can achieve SSJ just to get you to that level. Still, it would be better in a practical way if Saiyans always had the ability to get stronger after recovery from a savage beat down but I digress it's the same weird problem Saiyans have with their tails. I guess you can't have everything!

I don't think any source stated that Zenkais became insignificant after a certain point, but post-Freeza arc, that's how it looks. They never play any important part in the story after that, the Saiyans don't seem to become stronger after near-death experiences (or they don't take notice of it or mention it). In the Majin Boo Arc, after Son Gohan was healed by Dende, Super Boo remarked that he didn't get any stronger.

It seemed like Zenkais were only a Freeza Arc thing. Granted, after Vegeta told Zarbon about Zenkais, Kuririn said that it was true, that's how it was whenever Goku survived a fierce battle--something to that effect. But I'm not sure as to the validity of that statement, since it certainly doesn't look that way in Dragon Ball before (and Toriyama probably hadn't thought up Zenkais back then, anyway).

[rereboy]

I don't think any source stated that Zenkais became insignificant after a certain point, but post-Freeza arc, that's how it looks. They never play any important part in the story after that, the Saiyans don't seem to become stronger after near-death experiences (or they don't take notice of it or mention it). In the Majin Boo Arc, after Son Gohan was healed by Dende, Super Boo remarked that he didn't get any stronger.
It seemed like Zenkais were only a Freeza Arc thing. Granted, after Vegeta told Zarbon about Zenkais, Kuririn said that it was true, that's how it was whenever Goku survived a fierce battle--something to that effect. But I'm not sure as to the validity of that statement, since it certainly doesn't look that way in Dragon Ball before (and Toriyama probably hadn't thought up Zenkais back then, anyway).

Thats because his power was already maxed out by the Mystic upgrade.

Zenkais still exist after Freeza, but they aren`t significant enought to matter. After Freeza, the main concern of the Sayans was to improve their SSJ states. By doing so they improved a lot more then they did with Zenkais (since even basic SSJ multiplies the base power by 50).

The zenkais still exist but they aren`t big enough to make any difference against their adversaries.

The only big Zenkai that mattered after Freeza was Cell`s zenkai and he only had a zenkai that large for the sake of the plot.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I don't think any source stated that Zenkais became insignificant after a certain point, but post-Freeza arc, that's how it looks. They never play any important part in the story after that, the Saiyans don't seem to become stronger after near-death experiences (or they don't take notice of it or mention it). In the Majin Boo Arc, after Son Gohan was healed by Dende, Super Boo remarked that he didn't get any stronger.
It seemed like Zenkais were only a Freeza Arc thing. Granted, after Vegeta told Zarbon about Zenkais, Kuririn said that it was true, that's how it was whenever Goku survived a fierce battle--something to that effect. But I'm not sure as to the validity of that statement, since it certainly doesn't look that way in Dragon Ball before (and Toriyama probably hadn't thought up Zenkais back then, anyway).

Thats because his power was already maxed out by the Mystic upgrade.

Zenkais still exist after Freeza, but they aren`t significant enought to matter. After Freeza, the main concern of the Sayans was to improve their SSJ states. By doing so they improved a lot more then they did with Zenkais (since even basic SSJ multiplies the base power by 50).

The zenkais still exist but they aren`t big enough to make any difference against their adversaries.

The only big Zenkai that mattered after Freeza was Cell`s zenkai and he only had a zenkai that large for the sake of the plot.

So you're telling me that there was no way for Gohan to get any stronger? At all? Despite everything else that's been established in Dragon Ball before (characters, particularly the Saiyans, always finding new ways to get stronger, etc)?

[Rocketman]

So you're telling me that there was no way for Gohan to get any stronger? At all? Despite everything else that's been established in Dragon Ball before (characters, particularly the Saiyans, always finding new ways to get stronger, etc)?

Yep. I mean, think about it, in his regular everyday form, Gohan was more powerful than a Fusion using Super Saiyan 3. He was only overpowered by a fusion (Super Buu) fusing with both a fusion (Piccolo) and another fusion (Gotenks) at SS3!

And this is his regular power; he needs no energy-consuming transformation, it's not limited by time, it causes no strain on him, and it never goes away (as he's still Mystic ten years after Buu). The Mystic powerup is the ultimate powerup possible for a single being. What, is he gonna do a few pushups and surpass that?

[Kaboom]

Gohan could get stronger. But with how powerful he already is compared to the rate at which he could grow... it'd probably take him 10+ years to add another 1% or 2% to his power.

[Savage68]

Wait, we're talking about Mystic Gohan?

That guy who's power exceeded his possible limits? How the hell could he get stronger, barring more magic?

[SSJmole]

Mystic Gohan would never had come to be through. As he never would have become a SSJ2 so the first fight Buu saga would have killed him. If not then Buu would have and he wouldn't be in position to shatter Z-sword and release the old Kai who gave him potential unlocked spell, thing.

[rereboy]

I don't think any source stated that Zenkais became insignificant after a certain point, but post-Freeza arc, that's how it looks. They never play any important part in the story after that, the Saiyans don't seem to become stronger after near-death experiences (or they don't take notice of it or mention it). In the Majin Boo Arc, after Son Gohan was healed by Dende, Super Boo remarked that he didn't get any stronger.
It seemed like Zenkais were only a Freeza Arc thing. Granted, after Vegeta told Zarbon about Zenkais, Kuririn said that it was true, that's how it was whenever Goku survived a fierce battle--something to that effect. But I'm not sure as to the validity of that statement, since it certainly doesn't look that way in Dragon Ball before (and Toriyama probably hadn't thought up Zenkais back then, anyway).

Thats because his power was already maxed out by the Mystic upgrade.

Zenkais still exist after Freeza, but they aren`t significant enought to matter. After Freeza, the main concern of the Sayans was to improve their SSJ states. By doing so they improved a lot more then they did with Zenkais (since even basic SSJ multiplies the base power by 50).

The zenkais still exist but they aren`t big enough to make any difference against their adversaries.

The only big Zenkai that mattered after Freeza was Cell`s zenkai and he only had a zenkai that large for the sake of the plot.

So you're telling me that there was no way for Gohan to get any stronger? At all? Despite everything else that's been established in Dragon Ball before (characters, particularly the Saiyans, always finding new ways to get stronger, etc)?

Yes. You know why? Two reasons:

1 - Because nobody in the series was even close to Mystic Gohan power except fusions or buu`s absorptions.

2 - The series ended.

The only way to Gohan at that point become stronger would be with a fusion.

His power was already much more powerful than it would be if he achieved SSJ 3 like Goku did because he had no trouble with sustaining the Mystic form (unlike SSJ3 that consumes way too much energy, so the time is limited) and his power was clearly above SSJ 3 normal level. And there are no SSJ forms above SSJ3 (forget DBGT).

The fact that he doesn`t even need to turn SSJ is clear in saying that all his power, factual and potential, is already in the surface.

That`s why the Mystic power up is so important and special. Its the ultimate power up. It brings out all what you are capable of.

Besides, the buu arc is also clear in stating that all the fighters were reaching their maximum possible peak in power, in my opinion.
Think about it... They didn`t beat buu by becoming stronger, individually. They turned to fusions and one giant Genki Dama to do it. The only one who tried to beat buu by becoming stronger was Gohan, who Dragon Ball show us to be the most naturally gifted fighter of them all. And even he did it with the help of magic which not only allowed him to become the strongest possible, but also removed all of the disadvantges of the SSJ forms (namelly the SSJ 3 disadvantage).

Also, no one can become stronger forever. There has to be a limit for every being.

Mystic Gohan can only become stronger with fusions in my opinion. Besides that he can only maintain his power or become weaker.

Yep. I mean, think about it, in his regular everyday form, Gohan was more powerful than a Fusion using Super Saiyan 3. He was only overpowered by a fusion (Super Buu) fusing with both a fusion (Piccolo) and another fusion (Gotenks) at SS3!

And this is his regular power; he needs no energy-consuming transformation, it's not limited by time, it causes no strain on him, and it never goes away (as he's still Mystic ten years after Buu). The Mystic powerup is the ultimate powerup possible for a single being. What, is he gonna do a few pushups and surpass that?

I agree.

[Savage68]

Because nobody in the series was even close to Mystic Gohan power except fusions or buu`s absorptions.

What makes you think he was so much stronger than Super Gotenks?

[Jon Jon]

I always thought that SSJ3 Gotenks was just as powerful as Mystic Gohan (at least that's how I interpreted the events). I understand that everyone was in shock at how powerful Gohan was, but SSJ3 Gotenks was no weakling and did his share of damage to Buu even though he was just playing around.

Though I could believe that he was much stronger, it's just how you interpret it. What about compared to SSJ3 Goku?

[Savage68]

SSj 1 Gotenks was closer to SSj 3 Goku, so naturally, Super Gotenks would outclass him.

And it was outright stated twice and implicitly stated once that Mystic Gohan was just stronger than Super Gotenks.

[rereboy]

Because nobody in the series was even close to Mystic Gohan power except fusions or buu`s absorptions.

What makes you think he was so much stronger than Super Gotenks?

Like I said, except fusions or buu absorptions.
Fusions and absorptions are always more than one fighter combined. Its not really fair to compare them with a single fighter like Gohan because he could resort to fusion too, if he wanted.

But, even so, despite being a fusion, Mystic Gohan was stronger than Gotenks using SS3. Not WAY much stronger. But stronger no doubt. The way he handles Super Buu and the way Super Buu talks about him, implies that.

As for SSJ 3 Goku he obviously was outclassed by both Gotenks and Gohan.

A fusion between sayans or half-sayans using a SSJ state will always be much stronger than a unfused sayan using that SSJ state.
Thats why Gotenks was very strong even in his base state and way more powerful than any basic SSJ with his basic SSJ. Naturally his SSJ 3 was also much more powerful than a normal SSJ 3.
That his confirmed by Vegetto, despite being an even larger difference. His basic SSJ is also way much more powerful than any basic unfused SSJ. And naturally his SSJ 3 would also be that much more powerful compared to a normal SSJ 3.

That also tell us that kid buu is inferior to Super Buu, as it is confirmed by Goku statement of being afraid to take him on while inside of Super Buu, but not being afraid of taking on kid buu (despite kid buu being more wicked).

[Jon Jon]

Which begs the question...why not teleport Gohan to the Kaioshin Planet? lol

I don't think he was dead during that battle, I believe he was revived was he not?

[rereboy]

Because Toriyama wanted to give a more meaningful ending to kid buu which is the last villain of the series.

He didn´t want to just have a stronger fighter beat up the villain (thats was also the reason why he didn`t make Gotenks or SSJ 3 Goku, after powering up for a minute, beat Kid buu). That had already been done. And since Gohan was much more powerful, that would be a "boring" fight.

With the Genki Dama solution Toriyama gave us the perfect ending to a villain... Everyone contributed to his defeat. Everyone united in one common interest. The sayans, the humans, the powerful, the weak... The perfect Shonen ending, I believe.

Besides that, Toriyama had already admitted on interviews that he didn`t think Gohan was ultimately suited to play the role of main hero, and that was why it was Goku`s job to handle the Genki Dama in the end. But one thing was clear, as it had always been... Gohan was the most naturally gifted fighter of them all, and with the mystic form that remained true, with Gohan being the strongest of them all, with all his potential finally at his grasp.

In universe, its sort of an plot hole, just like why didn`t Kid buu just teleported away of the Genki Dama, like he did to reach the Kaioshin planet. In universe its a plot hole, but its clear what Toriyama had in mind, I believe.