Powerlevels (discussion con't from DB Rankings)

[IncredibleGuy]

From the Dragon Ball Ranking topic

Oh no, trust me, I'm being the bigger nerd here because I do know what I'm talking about... For the sake of this argument that is a good thing, but in the grand scheme of things (particularly the "will I get laid tonight" scheme of things) it's a very very bad thing. But let me break this down for you. You're confusing the arbitrary "Power Level" numbering system for the universal concept of latent energy, "Ki." Freeza and co. used scouters to get a readout of a fighters "Power Level." It was just a number for any character's capacity and capability of handling their Ki. Goku and Piccolo didn't have a "power level." Radditz thought they did and that's why he ended up face down in the dirt with a hole in his stomach (or a very nasty bruise depending on which version you're watching). There could be several reasons, besides just raw numbers, that Goku and Piccolo got slapped silly by Hairy McMeatymanleg. One of which may be that they were fighting an unknown style. Another may be that he was actually stronger and faster than them, numbering aside. Goku learned a lot about fighting from that fight, from his training in the afterlife, from his fight with Vegeta, and his fight with Freeza. The numbers didn't matter. What mattered was the skill of the fighter and his ability to control his Ki. That is why he defeated Freeza. That and the golden hair.

That's the absolute biggest load of crap I've ever heard. The reason Raditz died was because Piccolo managed to raise his power level to 1440 right before shooting his Masanko beam. I think you're confusing fandom and canon, because there is NEVER a distinction made in the comic or anime between power level and ki. Also, fighting styles have never been a point of contention in the Dragon Ball universe. In fact, Master Roshi even makes a point to denounce them before entering Goku and Krillin in their first tournament.

Actually the only reason Ki is a universal property is because of the philosophies and beliefs Dragon Ball was built around. Particularly those of Buddhism and cultural norms of the area.

And again, so are transformations and super powers. You're just picking one irrelevant and arbitrary "problem" and latching onto it like it actually holds up to any sort of scrutiny.

Dragon Ball was not built around the philosophies of Buddhism, that's ridiculous. It was a gag manga inspired by Drunken master that loosely followed the plot of Journey to the West. It didn't become a universal property until later in the saga and it was worse off because of it.

How is that nonsense? Why would always needing to be about 33% stronger than your opponent to completely outclass them in power be nonsense? How would it make sense if you only had to have 400 points more power than the other guy, no matter what, to outclass them, make sense? Why is 10,000 smacking around 6,700 and 1,000,000 smacking around 670,000 equally well less realistic than 1,000,000 smacking around 999,600 and 800 smacking around 400 equally well?

Because that would be equal in intelligence to telling someone that because the difference in height between a 200ft building and 300ft tall building are similar in proportion to that of a 400 ft tall building and 600 ft tall building they would both take the same amount of time to scale.
What you're saying is that as a powerlevel increases its inherent value decreases, which makes an idiotic scale of measurement. It would be like if I told you that a meter is about 3ft in length, but 2 meters are 4.5 ft in length.

Too much power to survive it. Kaioken alone is dangerous and runs the risk of blowing you up from the inside out.

and why is that? They're both multipliers. If KOK plus SS is too much then how did Goku ever manage to go USS, SS2, and SS3?

They don't.

They do.

I think that you are forgetting about Radditz's comment on Goku's Kamehameha and Piccolo's Makankosappo. That's what it was all about, underestimating the fighter.
Ordinary fighters in the universe who had 1500 in powerlevel, didn't shoot blasts over 1500. But those who controlled their powerlevel, could shoot blasts up to three times their strength.
Also, scouters don't show the reserves fighters have (Radditz: "Do you still have those powers left?").
Aaaaaaaaaaand thus it explains why it varies between different characters how long they stand against an opponent.
This is even shown in the 23rd Budokai, when everyone are astonished over that Goku fired a Super Kamehameha and wasn't even tired. Their natural power sensing didn't show that Goku had much more power within him.
Kuririn is shown to be able to feel those reserves much later, in the Cell arc.
Thus, your question now has a great explanation.

Explain how Piccolo after getting demolished by Vegeta and Nappa managed to stay toe to toe with Freeza despite the fact that they're difference in powerlevels should've been in the millions. Explain why Goku can survive a KOKx20, but Super Saiyan Goku can't even withstand a KOKx2. Explain why if the Zenkai powerup or whatever you wanna call it are multipliers Goku and Vegeta didn't make slitting their wrists their new training technique.

It's because of that Ki is a part of the Asian culture. The Chinese and Japanese especially. That's why it's used so often, because of that it's a normal and spiritual thing for them. That's your good reason there.

Culture is a stupid reason to include something in your story. Nobody tells Americans that its a good reason to include biblical quotes in their television shows and movies because its part of their culture. Culture is the bane of originality.

[Haseowolf]

Who are you talking to? A bunch of these just say "Quote" with no one attached. Is this an argument in your head?

[Rocketman]

and why is that? They're both multipliers. If KOK plus SS is too much then how did Goku ever manage to go USS, SS2, and SS3?

Kaioken was stated right after it was introduced that it takes perfect control to use or you blow yourself up. That's why Goku's x3 and x4 versus Vegeta hurt him so bad - the Kaioken is an inherently dangerous technique.

Explain how Piccolo after getting demolished by Vegeta and Nappa managed to stay toe to toe with Freeza despite the fact that they're difference in powerlevels should've been in the millions.

He fused with Nail.

Explain why Goku can survive a KOKx20, but Super Saiyan Goku can't even withstand a KOKx2.

Nothing is ever said that Goku can't use the Kaioken at Super Saiyan. All we know is that he doesn't. Again, probably because it's incredibly dangerous.

Explain why if the Zenkai powerup or whatever you wanna call it are multipliers Goku and Vegeta didn't make slitting their wrists their new training technique.

They did. Goku's entire training reginem on the way to Namek was "nearly kill myself, then take senzu". Vegeta likewise constantly abused the Zenkai throughout the Namek arc, though at a slower pace since he didn't have Senzu to instantly heal himself.

[Hujio]

Wow. Now people, pay attention, because this how you post random crap with absolutely no context for discussion! I think we could all learn from this.

Who are you talking to? A bunch of these just say "Quote" with no one attached. Is this an argument in your head?

My best guess is that this is from a heated PM session between IncredibleGuy and Innagadadavida. Either that, or it's something copied from MFG. Take your pick.

[Tsukento]

Battle power readings mean jack squat. They're estimated readings placed in a number system to judge the battle power of a living being.

They only apply to Scouters and Vegeta has even said time and time again that they're useless as they don't actually detect people who are suppressing their Ki, nor do they give accurate readings the potential of those who are suppressing it. As Vegeta said, Raditz and everyone else on Freeza's side ended up meeting their end due to relying too much on their Scouters. Even Ginyu recognized this while fighting Goku and eventually when he obtained his body.

And considering those estimated readings were done with after Freeza's henchmen saw Trunks had a reading of 5, battle power readings really have no purpose afterward nor did they really ever.

[Innagadadavida]

there is NEVER a distinction made in the comic or anime between power level and ki.

Power Level is a numerical readout of a fighters capabilities from a scouter. This includes the fighters ability to channel and control Ki. Power Level is a concept that is abandoned after the Freeza arc.

Dragon Ball was not built around the philosophies of Buddhism, that's ridiculous. It was a gag manga inspired by Drunken master that loosely followed the plot of Journey to the West. It didn't become a universal property until later in the saga and it was worse off because of it.

Culture is a stupid reason to include something in your story. Nobody tells Americans that its a good reason to include biblical quotes in their television shows and movies because its part of their culture. Culture is the bane of originality.

Unreal. Your ignorance is baffling.

Mods: It might make it a little easier for other members to join in on this discussion if some of relevent the posts from the "Dragon Ball Ranking" topic were to be moved to this topic. It's clear that many members are a little confused.

[Hujio]

Mods: It might make it a little easier for other members to join in on this discussion if some of relevent the posts from the "Dragon Ball Ranking" topic were to be moved to this topic. It's clear that many members are a little confused.

Why? It isn't their job to set up the context for a thread. If someone starts a thread, it's their job to do it. The very first sentence of the thread should have given people a heads up on where this is coming from. To most people, it was completely and utterly random, with no real basis or justification. I mean, just look at the beginning of the thread. There's no question, or general statement, just one guy yelling at another. How is anyone supposed to guess that this came from another thread, and even if someone were to assume that, it isn't their job to go searching for what thread it may have come from. There are hundreds of thousands of possible threads.

I just don't see what's so hard about setting up a thread properly. If you want others to be involved in the discussion, then give them some reason.

[Innagadadavida]

I just don't see what's so hard about setting up a thread properly. If you want others to be involved in the discussion, then give them some reason.

I agree. I don't see what's so hard about it either. But there is an entire thread worth of off topic discussion that could be easily moved to this one. We're here, why not?

[Xyex]

Because that would be equal in intelligence to telling someone that because the difference in height between a 200ft building and 300ft tall building are similar in proportion to that of a 400 ft tall building and 600 ft tall building they would both take the same amount of time to scale.
What you're saying is that as a powerlevel increases its inherent value decreases, which makes an idiotic scale of measurement. It would be like if I told you that a meter is about 3ft in length, but 2 meters are 4.5 ft in length.

That's not even a comparable analogy. What you're suggesting is that because the numbers are bigger your power advantage over the other person should be smaller, which makes no logical sense what-so-ever. Think about it in stats terms. You have a PL of 800, your opponent has a PL of 400. They hit you and do 4 damage per hit, you hit them for 8 damage per hit. Later, you fight again. Your PL is 8,000, their PL is 7,600. Now you hit them for 80 damage per hit and they get you for 76 damage per hit. Obviously, they're going to do better in this fight than the last one, even though the # difference is still 400 points. However, at 8,000 and 4,000 your damage ratios would be the same, only worth 10x as many 'points', thus the battle would go exactly the same.

It is your suggestion on how power levels should work that requires their inherent value to decrease. If that 400 point difference remains just as effective at higher levels than lower ones then the amount of defensive power associated with higher levels is far less than it is with lower levels. As a PL goes up the person's offensive and defensive abilities increase in kind. If a weight weighs 500 pounds and can hang from a rope made to hold 450 pounds for 30 seconds before the rope snaps then increasing the weight to 5,000 pounds and the strength of the rope to 4,500 pounds would result in the same 30 second delay. However, if the rope is increased to a strength of 4,950 pounds then it will hold that 5,000 pound weight for far longer than 30 seconds because the weight is only just barely over it's strength threshold.

and why is that? They're both multipliers. If KOK plus SS is too much then how did Goku ever manage to go USS, SS2, and SS3?

Becasue Kaioken is stated and shown to be far more taxing on the body than any of the SSJ levels. SSJ3 is shown to be an energy hog but non of them are shown to induce the same degree of physical strain that Kaioken does. Beyond this, the SSJ forms are transformations, phyiscal changes designed to contain this specific level of power. They're made to handle SSJ so it stands to resason they'd be able to.

They do.

Show me somewhere that Gohan's power is considerably more or less when angry than it was when he was first introduced.

Explain how Piccolo after getting demolished by Vegeta and Nappa managed to stay toe to toe with Freeza despite the fact that they're difference in powerlevels should've been in the millions.

Difference between Piccolo and Nappa - about 1.42x (Nappa's favor)
Difference between Piccolo and 2nd Form Freeza - about 1.2x (Piccolo's favor) - Does well against Freeza
Difference between Piccolo and 3rd Form Freeza - about 1.25x (Freeza's favor, absolute minimum difference, 2.3x difference maximum) - Doesn't do well against Freeza
Difference between Piccolo and 4th Form Freeza (initial level) - about 1.67x (Freeza's favor, absolute minimum difference, possible 3.33x difference maximum) - Can't even see Freeza move.

Explain why Goku can survive a KOKx20, but Super Saiyan Goku can't even withstand a KOKx2.

Kaioken severely strains the body. Super Saiya-jin puts some strain on the body. 150,000,000 x2 - 300,000,000 = Far more power and strain than SSJ Goku, at this point in the series, can handle.

If you want to ask why SSJ Goku can't handle Kaioken then also ask why Saiya-jin Saga Goku can't handle Kaioken x100. It's the same question.

Explain why if the Zenkai powerup or whatever you wanna call it are multipliers Goku and Vegeta didn't make slitting their wrists their new training technique.

No one ever said that Zenkais are multipliers, it's just easiest to express them as such (his power increased 1.3x here, 2.5x there, 10.9x this time, etc). And, uh, did you not watch the same Namek and Freeza sagas as me? Goku left Earth with a full bag of Senzu beans and landed on Namek with 2 or 3 of them. Vegeta, meanwhile, told Krillin to blast a hole through his chest so that he could get the power to defeat Freeza.

Following Namek and the advent of SSJ Zenkais became all but non-existant.

Culture is a stupid reason to include something in your story. Nobody tells Americans that its a good reason to include biblical quotes in their television shows and movies because its part of their culture. Culture is the bane of originality.

Culture is why CSI, Lost, Survivor, Big Brother, The Apprentice, and so forth are popular shows.

[Godo]

Reading the manga from beginning to the end, there should be no questions regarding ki and the scouter's readings. It's explained in several quotes from Vegeta and Radditz aswell.

And the problem with the Kaioken is also explained from Goku: "One small mistake and It will backfire and kill me".
The times he used it: When Gohan and Krillin were going to be attacked by Nappa (it was an emergency), When Vegeta shot a a blast and he had to block it, when he tried to fight back for real, and then it was all or nothing, he used kaioken x3 and beat Vegeta around, and then when he fired the kamehameha, and even went to x4 during that duel.
He never used it for fun or in a relaxed state. The same goes for the rest of the times he used it, including the movies.

Culture isn't something stupid to incorporate into a story, IncredibleGuy, since it's done in all the American shows you watch. The difference is that you don't notice it since it's so normal for you.

I'm not going to explain myself more than that. It's simple enough.

[ShinRogafuken]

Dragon Ball's Ki isn't based off Buddhism beliefs?

Umm....it is very obvious that it is (if you've actually studied the Buddhism beliefs).

[IncredibleGuy]

Culture isn't something stupid to incorporate into a story, IncredibleGuy, since it's done in all the American shows you watch. The difference is that you don't notice it since it's so normal for you.

Let me rephrase this then. Culture is a poor excuse for unoriginality. I hate Western cliches just as much as I hate Eastern ones.

[Innagadadavida]

Let me rephrase this then. Culture is a poor excuse for unoriginality. I hate Western cliches just as much as I hate Eastern ones.

So the concept of "Ki" is unoriginal. Okay, name five anime or movies off the top of your head that use this concept as a core feature in the same way as Dragon Ball Z.

By that logic, shows that use Western medicine are unoriginal as well, as medicine is very much the product of a culture that values human wellness. Specifically Western medicine because it comes from Western culture. So much so that it's specified as such in the title.

Boom, headshot. Your shit's weak, son!

[IncredibleGuy]

So the concept of "Ki" is unoriginal. Okay, name five anime or movies off the top of your head that use this concept as a core feature in the same way as Dragon Ball Z.

Bleach, Naruto, Yu Yu Hakusho, Shaman King, Street Fighter, Rurouni Kenshin, etc.

By that logic, shows that use Western medicine are unoriginal as well, as medicine is very much the product of a culture that values human wellness. Specifically Western medicine because it comes from Western culture. So much so that it's specified as such in the title.

Boom, headshot. Your shit's weak, son!

Eh, if you say so. Western medicine is moreso a fact of life, whereas spiritual energy is nothing more than a plot device. The only reason I made a distinction between it and Eastern medicine was on the off chance this board contained a few otaku-philes who actually consider acupuncture a reliable medicinal tool.

[Innagadadavida]

So the concept of "Ki" is unoriginal. Okay, name five anime or movies off the top of your head that use this concept as a core feature in the same way as Dragon Ball Z.

Bleach, Naruto, Yu Yu Hakusho, Shaman King, Street Fighter, Rurouni Kenshin, etc.

Mmhmmmm... And how many of those came before Dragon Ball?
On a side note, The Odyssey is unoriginal because it uses adventure as a plot device.

Eh, if you say so. Western medicine is moreso a fact of life, whereas spiritual energy is nothing more than a plot device. The only reason I made a distinction between it and Eastern medicine was on the off chance this board contained a few otaku-philes who actually consider acupuncture a reliable medicinal tool.

Ki is considered a fact of life in the Dragon Universe. The whole concept of fighting in Dragon Ball is built around a characters ability to channel Ki. You can not have Dragon Ball without Ki. So to consider "Ki" a problem in Dragon Ball, would be to consider pirates a problem in One Piece. It's just fact. It's supposed to be there.

Your shit = still weak, brah.

[IncredibleGuy]

That's not even a comparable analogy. What you're suggesting is that because the numbers are bigger your power advantage over the other person should be smaller, which makes no logical sense what-so-ever. Think about it in stats terms. You have a PL of 800, your opponent has a PL of 400. They hit you and do 4 damage per hit, you hit them for 8 damage per hit. Later, you fight again. Your PL is 8,000, their PL is 7,600. Now you hit them for 80 damage per hit and they get you for 76 damage per hit. Obviously, they're going to do better in this fight than the last one, even though the # difference is still 400 points. However, at 8,000 and 4,000 your damage ratios would be the same, only worth 10x as many 'points', thus the battle would go exactly the same.

It is your suggestion on how power levels should work that requires their inherent value to decrease. If that 400 point difference remains just as effective at higher levels than lower ones then the amount of defensive power associated with higher levels is far less than it is with lower levels. As a PL goes up the person's offensive and defensive abilities increase in kind. If a weight weighs 500 pounds and can hang from a rope made to hold 450 pounds for 30 seconds before the rope snaps then increasing the weight to 5,000 pounds and the strength of the rope to 4,500 pounds would result in the same 30 second delay. However, if the rope is increased to a strength of 4,950 pounds then it will hold that 5,000 pound weight for far longer than 30 seconds because the weight is only just barely over it's strength threshold.

You're reasoning holds up well enough when a powerlevel is an indication of both strength and life supply, but what about speed? Speed increases with powerlevels, right? So let's say that not only are powerlevels a perfect representation of strength and life, but also speed as measured by meters per hour times .1. Going back to your example about a 400 pl and 800 pl fighting, in a match like that the difference in max speed between these two fighters is a mere 40m/hr. However as the strength of these fighters increases ten fold the difference in speed increases to 400 m/hr. Despite proportionate battle powers, the weaker fighter now has a harder chance of hitting the stronger fighter and the dynamic changes.

Show me somewhere that Gohan's power is considerably more or less when angry than it was when he was first introduced.

At the start of the show it goes from 1 to 1,307, then it goes from 1,000 to 3,000 against Nappa, then sometime during the Freeza battle it goes from around +20,000 to +1,000,000. I don't know what the numbers were against Cell. Vegeta gets some pretty weird Zenkai powerups too. After his fight with Goku his battle power doubles, but after his fight with the Ginyu force it quadruples.

[IncredibleGuy]

Mmhmmmm... And how many of those came before Dragon Ball?
On a side note, The Odyssey is unoriginal because it uses adventure as a plot device.

Eh, if you say so. Western medicine is moreso a fact of life, whereas spiritual energy is nothing more than a plot device. The only reason I made a distinction between it and Eastern medicine was on the off chance this board contained a few otaku-philes who actually consider acupuncture a reliable medicinal tool.

Ki is considered a fact of life in the Dragon Universe. The whole concept of fighting in Dragon Ball is built around a characters ability to channel Ki. You can not have Dragon Ball without Ki. So to consider "Ki" a problem in Dragon Ball, would be to consider pirates a problem in One Piece. It's just fact. It's supposed to be there.

Your shit = still weak, brah.

Nobody in Dragon Ball makes the slightest mention of ki until somewhere around the introduction of Piccolo. Furthermore, if you're daft enough to think that today's fighting anime get their spiritual energy inspiration from Dragon Ball then I'm just going to ignore you from now on. Spirit energy as a plot device has been used in Japanese entertainment far longer than Dragon Ball existed.

[The Time Traveller]

Nobody in Dragon Ball makes the slightest mention of ki until somewhere around the introduction of Piccolo.

... What version of the show did you watch?

I can't remember the first mention of ki, but I'm sure it was WAY earlier than that.

[Xyex]

Bleach, Naruto, Yu Yu Hakusho, Shaman King, Street Fighter, Rurouni Kenshin, etc.

Bleach - Never seen it, can't make a call.
Naruto - Nope, not even close.
Yu Yu Hakusho - Alright, that's one.
Shaman King - Always struck me more as 'magic' than anything ki like.
Street Fighter - I'll go with this one, even if they don't go as far as DB does.
Rurouni Kenshin - Buh?

You're reasoning holds up well enough when a powerlevel is an indication of both strength and life supply, but what about speed? Speed increases with powerlevels, right?

We've seen that while speed does increase with power level a person's power level is not the only factor in determining speed. Two prominent examples: Burter's as strong as Recoome and Jeice but much faster. SSJU2 Trunks is stronger than Perfect Cell but much slower.

At the start of the show it goes from 1 to 1,307,

Actually, it goes from 710 to 1,307. That "1" is him unconcious. 710 is him "powered-up" and would be his "normal maximum" without anger if he were a trained fighter and knew how to call it out.

then it goes from 1,000 to 3,000 against Nappa,

981 x 1.84 (number derived from above levels) = 1,805 + Charged Masenko = Power used against Nappa. (Assuming, of course, that 981 is his maximum and not a suppressed level like everyone else had at that time.)

then sometime during the Freeza battle it goes from around +20,000 to +1,000,000.

Gohan was way over 20,000 in the fight against Freeza. Vegeta wouldn't have considered him any sort of help against Freeza otherwise.

Vegeta gets some pretty weird Zenkai powerups too. After his fight with Goku his battle power doubles, but after his fight with the Ginyu force it quadruples.

You got his Zenkai after Goku wrong, but it's not important. Zenkais are not stable increases. They're not "Oh, hey, I got beat up, no my power will increase by this amount." They're a lot more random than that, and not really important to the discussion of PL numbers as actually being a functional system.

Nobody in Dragon Ball makes the slightest mention of ki until somewhere around the introduction of Piccolo.

Funny, I seem to remember Roshi leveling the Ox King's mountain and castle far earlier than that.

[Godo]

Eh, if you say so. Western medicine is moreso a fact of life, whereas spiritual energy is nothing more than a plot device. The only reason I made a distinction between it and Eastern medicine was on the off chance this board contained a few otaku-philes who actually consider acupuncture a reliable medicinal tool.

I am a medicine student studying Western medicine (4th year), and I have to add that Eastern medicine has always been researched by Western scientists to bring out new medicines and cures. And there are actually some cases where their remedies work because of their pharmacological properties.
And acupuncture actually helps- in muscular pain. The needle stick activates the pain receptors in the muscles and also increases the blood flow, giving the feeling of pain relief. Also, it can lower the pain in other parts of the body.

And you using the term "otakuphiles" shows much more of your overall attitude. And you are being more and more corrected by people that have more knowledge than you, although you fail to see that. It doesn't stop you from discussing things, it's our right, but maybe you'll eventually learn to listen to people and their arguments and try to be more open to new knowledge.