Names & Phrases: Translate or Not?

[Mountain]

I'm in no way against discussion, as long as it's constructive. However, I was responding to the earlier use of "weeaboo" in regards to one who tries to keep things Japanese, which is ridiculous, because as I said earlier, it's a Japanese show.

[Xyex]

Every single Japanese source Spells it "Boo", including Jump Ultimate Stars.

So we should be using Seru and Toranksuu, then?

It means "Future". That's it. It's as bad as that stupid Death Note fanslation that didn't translate 'plan'.

And I never argued against refering to him as "Future Trunks" for his title/descriptor. But what started this thread wasn't people complaining over the use of "Mirai" as a descriptor but for being used as a name pun in a name replacement for Trunks to help distinguish the one from the future from the one in the present within fanfiction where both characters appear simultaneously. To not like the the use of "Mirai" in this way would also in turn mean you wouldn't like the use "Miira" in DBM because both are used in the exact same fashion.

I actually use "Future Trunks" when talking about the character. Just like I use "Demon King Piccolo". My opinion is that only names (character names, attack names, and titles used as names, like Kami) should be left untranslated because names aren't supposed to be translated. And this goes back to the use of "Mirai" as a name pun and replacement name for a character when they're around an otherwise identically named character. In this instance the word is not being used as a title but as a name and thus should not be "Future". Sure, you could use "Future" as the name instead of "Mirai" but "Future" does not sound like a name to Western ears while "Mirai" doesn't sound as awkward while still allowing the reader to easily identify who the character is. When using a 'replacement name' for someone this is highly important because if people forget that "Tuvokobumogo" is what Krillin is going by/being called (for whatever reason) then they're going to be really confused about who "Tuvokobumogo" is.

[DemonRin]

Every single Japanese source Spells it "Boo", including Jump Ultimate Stars.

So we should be using Seru and Toranksuu, then?

W... what?...
I've never seen a Japanese source that spelled Cell's name as "Seru" outright in English/Romanji that way... ever... same goes with "Torankusu".


Meanwhile



To my knowledge, I've never seen a piece of Japanese merch spell out his name as "Buu" in Romanji. I'm not saying it never happened, but the vast majority spells it "Boo".
Hell, look at the website for "Battle Stadium D.O.N.", the game in which Mike himself famously voiced his anger at this very same situation regarding Freeza's name and how they were taken in by the dub spelling.


Look:
1: "Boo" fits as a proper Transliteration of the Katakana ブー
2: "Boo" matches the official spelling of "Bibbidi Bobbidi Boo" put out by Disney
3: The vast, VAST majority of Japanese merchandise spells it "Boo". I can't actually recall a piece of Japanese Merchandise that didn't spell it that way, although it's possible, I haven't seen every single bit of merch. Whether it's "All" or just "Most", the Majority is clear.

It's pretty much the exact same argument for "Freeza" vs "Frieza"I don't see why I'm being so seriously fought on this.

[nathantheguitarist]

The biggest example I know of "Trunks" being an official spelling of his name is in the DBZ "Legends" manual. I scanned mine a long time ago, but can't find the files. But in there, several main characters all have katakana/kanji spellings, while Trunks is specifically "TRUNKS" in this. It's such a sore thumb, and I've always thought it was hilarious. If anyone can post a scan of it, please do! If not, I'll try and take a picture tomorrow.

[Xyex]

It's pretty much the exact same argument for "Freeza" vs "Frieza"I don't see why I'm being so seriously fought on this.

It's not really the same thing, actually. And until recently I'd only ever seen that spelled "Bippity Boppity Boo" and not "Bibbidi Bobbidi Boo"

As for Seru and Toranksuu, they were just randomly chosen ones. There's plenty of JP DBZ stuff out there with spellings that don't match what the majority of English speakers (Americans especially, of course) use.

[DemonRin]

It's pretty much the exact same argument for "Freeza" vs "Frieza"I don't see why I'm being so seriously fought on this.

It's not really the same thing, actually. And until recently I'd only ever seen that spelled "Bippity Boppity Boo" and not "Bibbidi Bobbidi Boo"

As for Seru and Toranksuu, they were just randomly chosen ones. There's plenty of JP DBZ stuff out there with spellings that don't match what the majority of English speakers (Americans especially, of course) use.

I'm not talking about the Japanese spellings used in Japanese. Of course they're written as "Seru", "Torankusu" and "Buu" in Katakana, I mean the English/Romanji that gets written on Japanese merchandise like... all the time...

And the Argument is the exact same as the Freeza argument.

1 - Freeza and Boo fit the Katakana. This is the only one that "Buu" fits into as well ("Frieza" does if you ignore the rules of... English...)
2 - Freeza fits the pun (Freezer), Boo fits the Pun (the official spelling of "Bibbidi Bobbidi Boo")
3 - Freeza is used on the Vast Majority of the Japanese Merchandise, Boo is used on the vast Majority of the Japanese Merchandise. This is the only one that "Freeza" doesn't fit into anymore, what with the recent Japanese stuff starting to use "Frieza"... annoyingly so.

And regardless of which of the two spellings of Bibbidi Bobbidi Boo you referenced... both of them used "Boo" the same...
But yeah, that's Disney's official spelling. They also have a store in Disney World called the "Bibbidi Bobbidi Boutique" spelled that way, and that's the spelling used on the DVD Subtitles and official sheet music and products that reference the name.

No matter how you look at it, it's the same situation.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Oh, here we go! I don't necessarily mean this as an, "Ah-HAH! GOTCHA!" example (maybe a little bit), but I'm genuinely curious:

--> Majin <--

Why is this purely-Japanese word acceptable when others are not? Two-fold, actually: (1) It's Japanese, so why does everyone feel free to keep it and speak it as-is, and (2) why that and not "Saiya-jin"...? Both have the same translatable/adaptable "-jin" suffix. Is it because "Saiya" is not an actual "word", so you want to adapt the entire name?

My example extends further to "Majin Vegeta". As far as we've been able to tell, up until the most recent round of video games, not a single Japanese piece of merchandise ever referred to him straight-up as "Majin Vegeta". It was always something referring to a "Demon Prince", but never "Majin". Why does fandom accept "Majin Vegeta", then, if it's never actually said? It's not a formal name. It's a description of him, and using a word that's only used as a description and never a formal name.

Except maybe with "Majin Buu". FUNimation adopted it, and so did their entire audience. They consistently spout out a Japanese phrase like it's nothing. Why is that? Why don't you call him "Demon/Magical Buu" instead? You go over to Viz, and they were in that period of "LET'S CRAZY ADAPT EVERYTHING!" and wound up with "Djinn Buu", but few people roll with that. Maybe they will in another ten years; I dunno.

I'm genuinely interested: what makes "Majin" as a word different from anything else, especially in reference to characters that are never labeled with that term in the show? Trunks is from the future, so "Mirai Trunks". Vegeta's under Babidi's spell, so "Majin Vegeta". What's the difference? That you heard "Majin" spoken aloud in FUNimation's dub, so it's OK?

The reason why Majin is left untranslated is because it is his title. Kami, Kaioh and Enma Daioh are titles thus they should be left untranslated. "Mirai" isn't a title, it is just a word used to distinguish one Trunks from another and should be translated to future. Saiya-Jin isn't a title, it is just a name for a race of people and thus it should be translated to Saiyan.

Oh and "Djinn" is an acceptable translation, it just conflicts with the "M" written on his belt.

[fig404]

It's pretty much the exact same argument for "Freeza" vs "Frieza"I don't see why I'm being so seriously fought on this.

It's not really the same thing, actually. And until recently I'd only ever seen that spelled "Bippity Boppity Boo" and not "Bibbidi Bobbidi Boo"

As for Seru and Toranksuu, they were just randomly chosen ones. There's plenty of JP DBZ stuff out there with spellings that don't match what the majority of English speakers (Americans especially, of course) use.

And they're sometimes incorrect.
Case and point:

[DemonRin]

But:
1: Oolong's name was already of Asian decent, it wasn't adapted from anywhere Western.
2: I don't think we actually DO have a concrete name spelling for Pu'erh. Steve Simmons uses "Pu'erh", the FUNi dub uses "Puar", And there's like, 100 different spellings. I just stick with Steve on this one because his version is pretty much my standard.

But even so, those names are either consistently different (IE, there's multiple different spellings all used in about the same frequency) or those examples are few and far between.

"Cell", "Trunks", and "Boo" are in the OVERWHELMING Majority when you see their names transliterated in English on Japanese Merchandise.
I tend to work on a fact basis, and the facts are far tipped in the favor of the spelling "Boo" on the Japanese side of things to ignore.

[VegettoEX]

The reason why Majin is left untranslated is because it is his title. Kami, Kaioh and Enma Daioh are titles thus they should be left untranslated. "Mirai" isn't a title, it is just a word used to distinguish one Trunks from another and should be translated to future. Saiya-Jin isn't a title, it is just a name for a race of people and thus it should be translated to Saiyan.

How is "Majin" any less of a name for a group of people than "Saiyajin" is? They both end in the exact same kanji (人) that signifies as much. Near as I can tell, we've got quite a collection of characters that fall under the group (Dabra, Pui-Pui, Yakon, Supopovitch, Yamu, maybe Vegeta). They may not be a "race" in the sense that they were "born into" it, but it's the same idea with the exact same word formation.

The only thing that even remotely separates them is that one character in the series gets his "race" plopped before his given name for a little bit (Majin Buu). It's really no different than all the other qualifiers being tossed into the mix ("Future Trunks"), except that characters literally speak aloud this one far more often and the precious FUNimation dub decided to leave it untranslated/unadapted.

Oh and "Djinn" is an acceptable translation, it just conflicts with the "M" written on his belt.

I never said otherwise. I don't particularly like it (swapping out a foreign word for another foreign word), but it's fine. The point was that it was only Viz that ever saw fit to "translate" Majin, and here you have fans that are up-in-arms about translating every single last thing... and hardly anyone grasps on to that translation in their everyday use. That seems inconsistent and hypocritical.

If you have a problem with "Saiyajin" being spoken aloud or written "in English", you have to have a problem with "Majin".

Perhaps mazoku (Piccolo-Daimao's self-described group of followers) is a similar situation? Why do we traditionally translate that out as "Demon Clan", but not "Majin" into "Demon Being" or "Magical Monster" or something?

I think "length" has something to do with it, as Rocketman was describing. I'm on-board with that. That boils down to a personal preference, though, and has nothing to do with being "accurate".

Also just wanted to toss this in, because clearly no-one's reading it:

And I never argued against refering to him as "Future Trunks" for his title/descriptor. But what started this thread wasn't people complaining over the use of "Mirai" as a descriptor but for being used as a name pun in a name replacement for Trunks to help distinguish the one from the future from the one in the present within fanfiction where both characters appear simultaneously. To not like the the use of "Mirai" in this way would also in turn mean you wouldn't like the use "Miira" in DBM because both are used in the exact same fashion.

Folks, he's talking about a fanfic where two versions of the same characters appear simultaneously, and is creating a way to differentiate them. This isn't general usage.

Do I agree that using "Mirai Trunks" in your everyday speech is an antiquated, lovely toss-back to English-speaking internet culture in 1996 or so? Yep! Is it "wrong", though? Hardly. It still boils back to personal preference.

RE: "BUU" VS "BOO"

If you're going to take a stand on Japanese precedents, then sure... go with "Boo". I still have yet to see a response to or counter-claim against my argument for using "Buu" in a series of "Bibidi / Babidi / Buu" vs "Bippity / Boppity / Boo", though. For me, it's about consistency, balancing out name puns while preserving something from the "original" spelling and/or romanization, etc. That's still all boiling down to personal preference and your ability as a "translator" (if any). I mean, Julian's the one who coined "Tullece" as a spelling -- that had no basis what-so-ever in anything beyond our understanding of the name pun and desire to convey it while still staying true to the original pronunciation. If you want to stick with majority-of-appearing Japanese spellings, be my guest. For example -- "Bulma" is one of these that we go with due to its first-appearance spelling in the manga, but there are plenty of valid points for using something like "Bluma", instead.

Like I said before, DragonBall is far different from most other series with the ways it pulls in words from various languages and creates puns out of them. I feel like people are harping on my "MIKE SAYS YOU HAVE TO USE MIRAI" non-point, and ignoring any other evidence or arguments or suggestions I'm tossing out there. Such is the Internet, though.

[Adamant]

But:
1: Oolong's name was already of Asian decent, it wasn't adapted from anywhere Western.
2: I don't think we actually DO have a concrete name spelling for Pu'erh. Steve Simmons uses "Pu'erh", the FUNi dub uses "Puar", And there's like, 100 different spellings. I just stick with Steve on this one because his version is pretty much my standard.

"Woolong" isn't a completely uncommon spelling of the tea name, and "Pooal tea" actually gives about as many Google hits as "Puar tea", so it doesn't make that spelling any worse than Funi's.

It's mostly a matter of these teas having been around for ages, and have had their names romanized in many different ways, most/all of which are still in use by people who wouldn't know what "Pinyin" was if their life depended on it, so they're kind of special cases.

The reason why Majin is left untranslated is because it is his title. Kami, Kaioh and Enma Daioh are titles thus they should be left untranslated.

Enma-daiou isn't a title, it's an actual mythological figure (and here is where we could start debating whether it should be kept as "Enma" or changed to "Yama" or "Yanwang" or "Yanluo" or whatever), and as for "Kami" (and I really really don't like calling him that, it just reeks of censorship)... if you were to translate a German novel where God played a part, would you keep him as "Gott" or properly translate it as "God"? I know what I would do.

The point was that it was only Viz that ever saw fit to "translate" Majin,

Carlsen Comics translated it as "Demon" (and kept "Saiya-jin" as such).

[JulieYBM]

On the subject of 'Majin Vegeta', if that is a term specific only to FUNimation's dub/public face of the series, what do the Japanese use? I know 'Majin Vegeta' is in Sparking METEOR, so what did the Japanese version call him?


I'm not entirely sure I have a standardized spelling system for stuff, myself. Typically I'll use Steve's stuff, but for stuff that have extended vowels I'll use circumflexes, because they're fun to read (Rôshi, Kaiô, Gokû, etc.). I believe I picked up using 'Tenka'ichi Budôkai' and 'Kame-sen'nin' from the site, however. I also took on 'Boo' instead of 'Buu/Bû' to match the pun, and 'Broli', not 'Broly' for the same reason.

Mike mentioned recently treating 'Daimaô' as an honorfic for Piccolo, but I ask...what happens when Piccolo calls himself 'Piccolo Daimaô-sama'? O.o

Pointing back to Yamcha, I actually haven't bothered to switch to Steve Simmons' 'Yamucha', as...well...it's one letter and 'Yamcha' is a perfectly accepted ramanization of the name.

On the subject of Bulma...it occurs to me that to match the pun on 'bloomer' the 'Bul' should be pronounced NOT as the 'bull', but rather 'bool'. In fact...I think the Blue Water dub might've done such. O.o

[VegettoEX]

On the subject of 'Majin Vegeta', if that is a term specific only to FUNimation's dub/public face of the series, what do the Japanese use? I know 'Majin Vegeta' is in Sparking METEOR, so what did the Japanese version call him?

Oh, "Majin Vegeta" goes back far longer than FUNimation. It's more that FUNimation used the phrase "Majin Vegeta" on all their merchandise and stuff to differentiate him, whereas I don't recall seeing Japanese merch do that. Near as I can tell, there are no episode or manga chapter titles that use "Majin Vegeta" as a phrase. It was purely a "fan" term until FUNimation took it and made it official... not that there's anything wrong with that.

Since I'm at work I can't actually check my copy of Sparking! METEOR, but the Japanese Wikipedia page for the game lists him in the character roster as ベジータ（後期）（魔人）, or something like Vegeta (Final Time Period) (Majin). On the SSJ chart from the Perfect Files (where, incidentally, you'll see mirai no torankusu), "Majin Vegeta" gets listed as 魔王子 / ma ouji, or "Demon Prince" Vegeta. I don't have the daizenshuu in front of me to see what else they might call the various transformations for him.

I guess we're getting more into term origins rather than how to translate them... but maybe it'll be useful...?

EDIT: I'm digging around some old Curtis Hoffmann stuff... it looks like he went with listing "Majin Buu" in the intro occasionally, and then translating it as "Magical Being Buu" for the remainder of summaries. I don't see any reference to a "Majin Vegeta" in here, though.

[JulieYBM]

On the subject of 'Majin Vegeta', if that is a term specific only to FUNimation's dub/public face of the series, what do the Japanese use? I know 'Majin Vegeta' is in Sparking METEOR, so what did the Japanese version call him?

Oh, "Majin Vegeta" goes back far longer than FUNimation. It's more that FUNimation used the phrase "Majin Vegeta" on all their merchandise and stuff to differentiate him, whereas I don't recall seeing Japanese merch do that. Near as I can tell, there are no episode or manga chapter titles that use "Majin Vegeta" as a phrase. It was purely a "fan" term until FUNimation took it and made it official... not that there's anything wrong with that.

Since I'm at work I can't actually check my copy of Sparking! METEOR, but the Japanese Wikipedia page for the game lists him in the character roster as ベジータ（後期）（魔人）, or something like Vegeta (Final Time Period) (Majin). On the SSJ chart from the Perfect Files (where, incidentally, you'll see mirai no torankusu), "Majin Vegeta" gets listed as 魔王子 / ma ouji, or "Demon Prince" Vegeta. I don't have the daizenshuu in front of me to see what else they might call the various transformations for him.

I guess we're getting more into term origins rather than how to translate them... but maybe it'll be useful...?

EDIT: I'm digging around some old Curtis Hoffmann stuff... it looks like he went with listing "Majin Buu" in the intro occasionally, and then translating it as "Magical Being Buu" for the remainder of summaries. I don't see any reference to a "Majin Vegeta" in here, though.

That's quite interesting, indeed. I do recollect the term 'Demon Prince' being tossed around before, and it--as well as 'Majin Vegeta'--seems to be titles equally official. Depending upon what the Daizenshû says, I might be tempted upon using 'Demon Prince' from now on to mix things up a little.

Now the question is whether 'Ma-ouji' should be given the 'Majin' treatment by fans or not! ;p

[DemonRin]

RE: "BUU" VS "BOO"

If you're going to take a stand on Japanese precedents, then sure... go with "Boo". I still have yet to see a response to or counter-claim against my argument for using "Buu" in a series of "Bibidi / Babidi / Buu" vs "Bippity / Boppity / Boo", though. For me, it's about consistency, balancing out name puns while preserving something from the "original" spelling and/or romanization, etc.

See, you're going off of the wrong spelling of the song.
it's not "Bippity Boppity Boo" it's "Bibbidi Bobbidi Boo".
"Bibbidi" is spelled exactly the same the way you put it sans one b (Bibbidi vs Bibidi) and Bobbidi is only different in the same way, plus changing the O out for an A. Other than that, it's the same. And Changing an O out for an A is like how in Japanese, "Ice Cream" is written "Aisu Kuriimu"
Nobody makes the argument that we should be spelling "Ice Cream" in that Boo filler at the end of DBZ as "Aice Cream", etc. (Though, IIRC, he used the shorthand of just "Aisu", but I can't remember, but that's not the point)
So if you take that into account, the official spelling of the song name is PRETTY damn close to a straight up romanization.
"Bibbidi" is pretty much spot on already. "Bobbidi" is extremely close sans ONE letter, and I don't see ANY Problem with "Boo", it's the most popular Japanese spelling.

I know the Japanese can occasionally screw up when they try to write English. We've got like 7 different spellings for Son's name ("Gokuh", "Gokuu", "Gokou", etc.) and what not, but I look at consistency. They CONSISTENTLY Use "Boo" on pretty much everything in Japan. It fits the name pun perfectly, and it matches the Katakana.
Plus, Steve Simmons uses it. Where is the part where this is somehow wrong?

That's still all boiling down to personal preference and your ability as a "translator" (if any). I mean, Julian's the one who coined "Tullece" as a spelling -- that had no basis what-so-ever in anything beyond our understanding of the name pun and desire to convey it while still staying true to the original pronunciation. If you want to stick with majority-of-appearing Japanese spellings, be my guest. For example -- "Bulma" is one of these that we go with due to its first-appearance spelling in the manga, but there are plenty of valid points for using something like "Bluma", instead.

Like I said before, DragonBall is far different from most other series with the ways it pulls in words from various languages and creates puns out of them. I feel like people are harping on my "MIKE SAYS YOU HAVE TO USE MIRAI" non-point, and ignoring any other evidence or arguments or suggestions I'm tossing out there. Such is the Internet, though.

It's just like the "Tullece" spelling. I like that spelling because it makes sense, and fits the name pun. I don't think "Turles" is right at all if you realize they meant it to be "Lettuce". Same with Broly. I don't see how "Broly" works when its supposed to be "Broccoli".

As for "Bulma", I actually think it should be "Bloomer", "Blooma" or "Buruma". I only recently started calling her "Bulma" because Everyone almost universally goes with "Bulma" including Steve Simmons, it appeared that way in the Manga, so I thought why not just go with it. If it appears so much on Japanese Manga panels and Merch, then I guess to an extent its right.

[B]

I don't think "Tullece" is right at all if you realize they meant it to be "Lettuce".

"Turles" seems to be filtered.

EDIT: Yes, it is!

[DemonRin]

Lol, fixed my post then.

But I'm not trying to be a stickler on proper translation or anything really, especially on an Asian-themed series like Dragon Ball...

The only thing I wont stand for is when someone tries to tell me that "Nakama is the most meaningful word in the Japanese language and must never EVER be translated Ever"......

Then just replace "Nakama" with any number of other average everyday words like "Kawaii" and "Chibi" and "Ossan" etc, etc. (though Nakama is BY FAR the worst I've ever seen this argument extend to)
This kind of stuff comes from Fansub-fans though, but I could just see a Dragon Ball Kai subtitle looking something like this:

Gyumao: Chichi! Where is my Kawaii Grandson Gohan-chan?! I brought Sugoi presents for him!
Chichi: He's outside with his otosan, Goku-sa. I swear, Goku-sa wants him to ni naru a powerful senshi! Goku-sa no Baka! Gohan-chan is going to become a dai gakusha!
HUGE DISTRACTING TRANSLATION NOTES FILL THE SCREEN!

As long as you don't make claims that this ^ is how things should be "Translated" then, as I said in my first post, I don't see the reason to even make issue of it. And I don't think anyone is making that claim here.

[DNA]

By the way, I've been wondering that for a while, what is the actual romanization for "Puar"?

Side Note: Never found this puar tea, found woolong tea and it's fucking bitter T_T I was all like "hehe look, woolong, gonna try that :3" and then "ARGH why? oh why are you so bitter woolong?" *sigh*

[VegettoEX]

By the way, I've been wondering that for a while, what is the actual romanization for "Puar"?

Side Note: Never found this puar tea, found woolong tea and it's fucking bitter T_T I was all like "hehe look, woolong, gonna try that :3" and then "ARGH why? oh why are you so bitter woolong?" *sigh*

プーアル = pûaru

From a never-completed section we occasionally work on:

"Pūaru" is a loanword from Chinese, 普洱 pu'er, the name of a county in Yunnan province, China. The word is most often used, however, to signify a particular kind of tea that originated in (and is nearly exclusive to) Yunnan. The leaves of this tea are allowed to naturally ferment over years at a time, and it can be of quite an old vintage by the time it reaches the drinker (similar in concept to fine wines). This process is said to give the tea a very dark color and an earthy, distinctive flavor that sets it apart from other teas.

We choose to spell it as "Pu'er" (the actual loanword with the "vowel" distinction) rather than "Puer" because the latter has some not-so-wonderful connotations.

[Adamant]

We choose to spell it as "Pu'er" (the actual loanword with the "vowel" distinction) rather than "Puer" because the latter has some not-so-wonderful connotations.

Oh? To what?