Piccolo vs. 17

[Xyex]

The argument was saying that Piccolo could mitigate the disadvantage of this technique by only becoming a "little bit bigger". I was sort of thrown by this idea, because Piccolo (in all the history of DB and DBZ), has never shown that he can appear at sizes below what he's shown (much like Oozaru).

Piccolo used two different sizes for his 'giant form' in DB and, I believe, he made himself just slightly larger in the fight against Garlic Jr. in the Garlic Jr. Saga (filler, I know, but meh).

now to me, this ability really only seems applicable to the fact that Kami is a KAMI, and that it's just an ability to use this to get to snake way and back.

Yeah... that wasn't actual teleporting, just shifting planes.

King Piccolo had the ability to create demon clones of himself, but at the price of shortening his life...My opponent argued that Piccolo Jr. could have done this as well...but I find it perfectly plausible that his children wouldn't necessarily share all of King Piccolo's abilities... Uub was never shown to possess all abilities of Buu.

I'm sure Piccolo could have spit out a whole army of kids if he wanted, but nothing says they'd be any stronger than your average Namekian kid.

According to the daizenshuu, Warrior-type Namekians can't lay eggs, and Piccolo/Ma Junior is a Warrior-type (whereas Daimao was a Demon Clan Namekian, and the Great Elder was of the Dragon Clan). That explains why Piccolo didn't lay an egg when Nappa killed him (of course, even if he could, Nappa and Vegeta would have probably just destroyed it soon after).

Seriously?

Man... no Piccolo III? That bites.

OK, so actually looking at it I can’t find anything that flat-out says Warrior-types can’t lay eggs, but since egg-laying is touted as the special ability of Dragon Clan Namekians, it’s implied that they can’t. Also, Daizenshuu 7’s page on races says that any Namekian born into the Dragon Clan can lay eggs, which again doesn’t flat-out say Warrior-types can’t, but implies it (otherwise, why not say all Namekians can lay eggs?).

Hmm. That is odd to imply but not state it. I'm going to assume that since it's not stated it's not true, cause there needs to be more Piccolo. >>

Does DBO state if Piccolo ever created any kids? We know he's behind one of the Namekian fighting styles....


EDIT
As for who would have won, I'd say Piccolo would have managed it in the end. A Special Beam Canon to the head, if he could manage it, would take out 17 just fine. And the Gekiretsu-Kodan would likely have killed 17, or at least badly injured him, had it been used on him.

[Herms]

Does DBO state if Piccolo ever created any kids? We know he's behind one of the Namekian fighting styles....

Not that I'm aware of. It's been mentioned in one of the game makers' interviews that Piccolo is still alive in Age 1000.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I recently had a debate with someone who said that Piccolo would probably defeat #17 in the battle they had. I argued the opposite, and used the manga to back up my assertions. My opponent stated that Piccolo could have used the following techniques to secure victory...

1. Super Large Body Technique

The argument was saying that Piccolo could mitigate the disadvantage of this technique by only becoming a "little bit bigger". I was sort of thrown by this idea, because Piccolo (in all the history of DB and DBZ), has never shown that he can appear at sizes below what he's shown (much like Oozaru).

Piccolo's "Super Large Body Technique" wouldn't have helped any because the only thing it did was increase his size. It didn't increase his physical strength, nor did it increase his speed.

As for what you said about Piccolo never showing that he can appear at sizes below what he's shown, I think Piccolo could grow as little as he wanted to as big as was possible. I mean, nothing confirms that we saw at the Tenka'ichi Budokai was the biggest he could grow. If he could grow that big, then surely he would have some sort of control over his ability and would be able to grow "a little bit bigger".

[Kiyza]

Piccolo's "Super Large Body Technique" wouldn't have helped any because the only thing it did was increase his size. It didn't increase his physical strength, nor did it increase his speed.

As for what you said about Piccolo never showing that he can appear at sizes below what he's shown, I think Piccolo could grow as little as he wanted to as big as was possible. I mean, nothing confirms that we saw at the Tenka'ichi Budokai was the biggest he could grow. If he could grow that big, then surely he would have some sort of control over his ability and would be able to grow "a little bit bigger".

Well, I don't know too much about physics, but if you're bigger, you probably have more mass. More mass means more weight, and more weight means there's more force behind something when it moves. So he probably is physically stronger while giant, but not ki wise.

And you know, he grew larger twice during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, so he obviously has some sort of control over how big he gets.

[Savage68]

Well, I don't know too much about physics, but if you're bigger, you probably have more mass. More mass means more weight, and more weight means there's more force behind something when it moves. So he probably is physically stronger while giant, but not ki wise.

"In the physical sciences, mass and weight are different properties. Mass is a measure of the amount of matter in the body while weight is a measure of the force on the object caused by a gravitational field.

Thus the mass of an object will remain constant wherever it is on the earth’s surface (assuming it is not traveling at a relativistic speed with respect to an observer), but if it is moved from the equator to the North Pole, its weight will increase by about 0.5% due to the increase in the earth’s gravitational field."

[Kiyza]

I need to check these laws of physics before I post. -_-

But still, I'd say that he's somewhat stronger when he's larger. I mean, it'll hurt hit if you're hit by a truck than if you are with a baseball.

[Velasa]

OK, so actually looking at it I can’t find anything that flat-out says Warrior-types can’t lay eggs, but since egg-laying is touted as the special ability of Dragon Clan Namekians, it’s implied that they can’t. Also, Daizenshuu 7’s page on races says that any Namekian born into the Dragon Clan can lay eggs, which again doesn’t flat-out say Warrior-types can’t, but implies it (otherwise, why not say all Namekians can lay eggs?).

Hmm. That is odd to imply but not state it. I'm going to assume that since it's not stated it's not true, cause there needs to be more Piccolo. >>

Oh thank god. I mean I would have just ignored it anyway, but knowing it's not an exactly-stated rule is just a good thing to hear.

As for the fight... I always thought they were even, and 17 would have ended up winning via the stamina debate unless Pic did his usual job of pulling something genuis out of his ass at the right time.

[Onikage725]

Well, yes, Mass remains constant while weight changes... but is the reverse true? Unless his body hollowed out, both his mass and weight should increase. We know an Oozaru's weight increases, as evidenced by Gohan's defeat of Vegeta simply by falling on him.

As for this debate... I think it is likely that anime Piccolo would have won. He was a walking utility belt. Marginal size increase was shown, and his multi-form technique. If we take it a step further and extrapolate without holding specifically to manga canon, movie 6 seems to indicate that the Makkankosappo has been mastered and no longer requires a large charge up (probably true anyway, but never demonstrated).

Going strictly by the manga, it's a tough call. On the surface, it feels like Freeza vs SSJ Goku- a seemingly close match up with one fighter being fairly stable and one burning ki and endurance at a quick rate. However, if I equate Piccolo to Freeza and #17 to Goku, Freeza didn't start out Goku's equal and he still put up a good fight. Piccolo *did* start out 17's equal, and was a tactically better fighter than Freeza. Or, at least more experienced, since Freeza had never had to push himself in an actual all out fight before meeting Goku. Goku, comparatively, was also a better/more experienced fighter than #17. So if a weaker and less experienced fighter was able to put up a good fight, it is possible that Piccolo (being as strong as his opponent and more experienced) could have pulled something out by the end. Maybe the Makkankosappo could bypass the barrier, or catch #17 off guard? Maybe Piccolo would pull a Super Robot Wars and damage a certain circuit or component- causing #17's stamina to begin to drain temporarily? It's speculatory, but I could see it happening.

Thing is, even if he did win, #18 whups his tired ass up and down the island chain afterwards. So it was a flawed plan either way, unless he was just thinking killing one was enough.

[Savage68]

I always thought they were even, and 17 would have ended up winning via the stamina debate unless Pic did his usual job of pulling something genuis out of his ass at the right time.

Like the Gekiretsu Kodan?

[Kiyza]

As for the fight... I always thought they were even, and 17 would have ended up winning via the stamina debate unless Pic did his usual job of pulling something genuis out of his ass at the right time.

I'd honestly think that's how Piccolo would this fight anway. Just because we haven't seen him use some attack doesn't mean he won't. A lot of his attacks seem to be pretty spur of the moment anway.

[Xyex]

Thing is, even if he did win, #18 whups his tired ass up and down the island chain afterwards. So it was a flawed plan either way, unless he was just thinking killing one was enough.

I think that was his thought. If he removes one of them then Cell can't absorb both. Defeating Cell if he can't become Perfect is a lot easier than defeating him afterward. If Piccolo had taken out 17 before Cell arrived then he'd have only had 18 (and I'm not entirely convinced he could absorb her first) and thus Vegeta would have killed Cell in his fight and that would be that.

[Bussani]

"In the physical sciences, mass and weight are different properties. Mass is a measure of the amount of matter in the body while weight is a measure of the force on the object caused by a gravitational field.

Thus the mass of an object will remain constant wherever it is on the earth’s surface (assuming it is not traveling at a relativistic speed with respect to an observer), but if it is moved from the equator to the North Pole, its weight will increase by about 0.5% due to the increase in the earth’s gravitational field."

He's right, though: more mass means more weight. It also means more momentum, which means more force delivered on impact. However, I think the key is that Piccolo's ki wouldn't increase, unlike something like an Oozaru transformation. He'd mostly just be making himself an bigger target for #17.

[Dayspring]

I say Piccolo would win. #17 doesn't have infinite stamina. Even though he has infinite energy reserves, he's not used to manipulating them while exhausted. Factor in his arrogance and inexperience in combat, and I can see Piccolo taking advantage of #17's numerous faults before running out of too much strength. Hell, from what we saw, it may even be possible for #17 to faint from exhaustion if he kept using tons of energy without resting. Then it would be a wounded, exhausted Piccolo vs a stronger, sleeping teenager.

[Onikage725]

That's a good point. #17 did look kind of strung out before his absorption. His ki synthesizers didn't deplete, but his body could fatigue. Also, there's no indication that he could focus and amplify his ki. I think he ran at a set level, whereas Piccolo could exceed his level with focus.

[Dayspring]

That's a good point. #17 did look kind of strung out before his absorption. His ki synthesizers didn't deplete, but his body could fatigue. Also, there's no indication that he could focus and amplify his ki. I think he ran at a set level, whereas Piccolo could exceed his level with focus.

Exactly. It's like having a gun with infinite ammo in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to shoot properly. Sure he can pull the trigger non-stop, but Piccolo knows how to evade the bullets, as well as aim, reload and handle the recoil on his proverbial six-shooter.

[HazelMystic]

Hmm... Well, this thread is definitely getting interesting... Piccolo's power level isn't noted to increase, but his mass does. In terms of DBZ: strength, ki, and power level seem to be used interchangeably, and it would *seem* that these concepts at LEAST overlap. Power level seems to be one of the most crucial factors, as noted by Vegeta when fighting Cui. He says that his speed also increases, although Trunks' transformation increases his power level, but decreases his speed. In most cases, a higher power level is positive. Let's take the battle with Frieza for instance. Goku fights Frieza on really good terms when he powers up to %100, and is able to land a lot of hits (in some way he's got control of the fight), but then his energy decreases and the battle tide is turned again...

150,000,000 vs. 120,000,000

Goku has a 20% battle power advantage over his foe, and yet Frieza opens quite nice against Goku...until his transformation drains his power.

Going back to the World Tournament, Goku was able to fight fairly evenly with Piccolo, but with Goku at an advantage in landing successful, damaging hits.... we note the positive trend towards Goku in this regard until he wins. I think you know where I'm going with this...

In regards to skill, it seems...

Goku >+/- Piccolo
Goku < Frieza


We don't really know #17's history, so we'd be ill-equipped to say exactly what his battle experience is, WE DO know that his battle statistics are higher in terms of his battle with Piccolo, and we know from the manga that he went all out against #17 (Cell states it and we can peer into Piccolo's mind with his thought bubble). The strategy was to shut down #17 to prevent Cell's perfect form. Vegeta and Trunks were to be done with their training anyway. Piccolo does have a variety of techniques, but remember that many techniques doesn't always mean a good thing. You have to TRAIN techniques for them to really make a difference. Fewer techniques can mean better mastery. Goku is a great example of this... just look at how outnumbered Goku is by Piccolo's arsenal. Piccolo can regenerate, increase his mass, materialize objects, shoot eye lasers, shoot ki out of his mouth... you get the idea. Having more techniques shouldn't be an assumed win. #17 has all the tools he really needs to put Piccolo away. I cannot say for certain where it would have gone, but the trend was absolutely in #17's favor, in many ways. The price of using what I call the "cherry bullet", would have been much higher for Piccolo when used against #17, than Cell. If Piccolo were to miss, #17 would have remained strong while Piccolo would have lost power and be in even worse shape. Regarding infinite energy... I don't know why some of you guys are saying the manga is somehow wrong: #17 and #18 are eternal energy types. #17 getting his insides bashed in by Cell would have hurt like hell, #17 is still a human being, and the pain caused by that would have inevitably caused him to keel over, but he hasn't lost power from it...it's pain induced disadvantage, nothing more. The problem, is that Piccolo wasn't able to cause #17 anything other than the level of cosmetic damage. If Piccolo were to land a strike powerful enough to be truly hurtful to #17, he could catch him off with a Ki blast to finish him off, but that was becoming less of a possibility as Piccolo became drained during the fights progression.

I also think it would be a mistake to say Piccolo was a better fighter by any means. It's stated that both #17 and #18 were runaway delinquents, perhaps growing up on the streets...that's just a guess, and that could potentially indicate street fighting skills (in addition to the knowledge of Dr. Gero's data of techniques).

[Savage68]

Goku has a 20% battle power advantage over his foe, and yet Freeza opens quite nice against Goku...until his transformation drains his power.

Goku was stalling until everyone was transported to Earth safely.

[HazelMystic]

Goku has a 20% battle power advantage over his foe, and yet Freeza opens quite nice against Goku...until his transformation drains his power.

Goku was stalling until everyone was transported to Earth safely.

Why would it have been necessary to let him add damage by taking hits? I just reviewed the manga.

[Savage68]

...Because he was so much stronger than Frieza that the attacks didn't actualy damage him.

[HazelMystic]

Frieza recovered from them, but he showed signs that he felt them. They DID damage! The best example of not taking damage would be #16 punching Cell's face after he transformed. Frieza is shown to affect Goku with his attacks. After everyone was evacuated, there is a frame in which both fighters both land a strike, and they both recover additionally...

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