Removing story mode in future DBZ fighting games

[johnboy1]

I like this idea, but the highlighted part: You mean Dragonball AF?

You know, if I was in charge of developing the game, I'd collect the post-GT story battles under the title "Dragon Ball AF Saga", just to fuck with everyone.

[NECPS]

Story mode is cool.

It just don't need to show the same scenes everytime.

Budokai 3 had cool spin offs dialogs betwen.
If only showed some pics instead of avatars ..

[Rocketman]

I really would like to know what happened to the gang after Goku left with Shenlong, and yet nobody's even tried to explore that option (Hell, even fanfics in such a time period are scarce).

Every single goddamn one of them: "Everybody is shit without/except for ~GOKU~".

[Adamant]

For the topic title of removing story modes from Dragon Ball fighting games, I beleive that that should not happen. Like someone said earlier, the best part of Dragon Ball (or any lisenced product) is the story and characters from the story, whether it's a retelling of the main plot or a brand new arc. Besides, having no story alienates those who are familiar with the property from those who aren't. I can play a story-less Dragon Ball game like Super DBZ because I know who everyone is and what's going on. A game that I played that did this was Gundam Battle Assault 3. It was based on the Seed universe. It had a couple of cutscenes that mostly said "We're here, now let's go there" and "There's some enemies, let's fight them", and if I hadn't watched the series prior, I probably would not have finished it.

Tatsunoko VS Capcom has an ass-ton of licensed characters few outside Japan know who are and a story that amounts to "these guys fight each other", and it's still pretty damn popular. As long as the game is actually good, it can manage.

[johnboy1]

Every single goddamn one of them: "Everybody is shit without/except for ~GOKU~".

Ah. Not a GT-lover, I see. I like to think that they went on to have their own adventures after getting over the permanent loss of Goku, though. In the fight with Super 17, when it appeared that Goku was not going to save the day, Vegeta basically named himself the planet's defender, which I still consider the final step in his character arc, Toriyama or no Toriyama. How does that job work out for him, now that Goku won't ever be saving the day again? Since Goku actually named Oob as his successor, how does Vegeta get on with him? Does Goten end up marrying Paris? Does Bra ever gain any superpowers? Does Capsule Corp go under because of Trunks' piss-poor managerial skills? All these and a myriad other questions that come with the absence of Goku and Dragon Balls, and nobody up top has thought of continuing the story past that point? Seriously, with the exception of the Goku Jr. special and the epilogue to GT, NOTHING has been explored post-Yi Xing Long.

[Rocketman]

Ah. Not a GT-lover, I see.

No...well yes, but that's not what I was referring to. Every single AF fanfic/fancomic/fanshit has everybody being worthless until ~GOKU~ returns to save the day.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

Kunzait_83, your argument was very strong and I agreed with everything you posted however you are treating these Dragonball games like they are a gaming franchise and not video games based off of an anime franchise. The thing is if these installments were anything but fighting games based off of a popular anime series then the lack of a story mode wouldn't be a problem, but this is Dragonball we are talking about, and a story is needed.

Like you I want a game that plays well but the whole point of buying a Dragonball game is to have the ability to relive the story with all my favorite characters, if I wanted something else I would have picked up SFIV or Soul Calibur or etc.(which I did). While this experience has been replayed over and over in the past, it's not like the feature isn't needed. For fans like myself a story mode is needed in order to make my $60 feel like it was worth something(especially when it could go towards something like Tatsunoko vs Capcom or any of the previously mentioned games). I want my Dragonball games to feel like the best Dragonball/fighting experience imaginable and all Dimps(Spike or whoever) needs to do is find ways to keep the story mode entertaining so that reliving that experience remains enjoyable. Hell in reality these games have only covered a small portion of the Dragonball Saga.

I think the best middle ground for all of this is to have a story mode(more bang for your buck) but have it so that you don't need it to unlock every character or stage because after 10 games, playing through each fight(or the same fight over and over again for Dragonballs) does become a chore. By not making story mode a requirement you can allow fans of fighting games to have a well thought out fighting system, were they can literally spend months in practice
mode mastering their favorite characters and then test their skills against friends or strangers online and at the same time, have a mode for fans of the series where they can replay their favorite battles in a new and exciting way.

In the case of most fighting games no a story mode is not need but for Dragonball it is. Otherwise it wouldn't be a Dragonball game.

[johnboy1]

No...well yes, but that's not what I was referring to. Every single AF fanfic/fancomic/fanshit has everybody being worthless until ~GOKU~ returns to save the day.

Oh, I thought you were talking about the kind of story they big wigs would come up with for post-GT missions.

[Rocketman]

No...well yes, but that's not what I was referring to. Every single AF fanfic/fancomic/fanshit has everybody being worthless until ~GOKU~ returns to save the day.

Oh, I thought you were talking about the kind of story they big wigs would come up with for post-GT missions.

Same thing.

[johnboy1]

Same thing.

Ha ha. I didn't know Goku returning was such a common plot device in post-GT fanfics, though. It's a good thing I don't have him returning in mine. Heh heh...

Damn it, damn it, damn it! Everything is ruined now. Somebody needs to save the day, but now I can't use Goku! Think, Johnboy! Use your creative talents. Design your own savior! Um... he'll have a white gi, with a little orange circle on the left breast... yeah... in the circle is the kanji for... for... a rabbit! Yes, and his hair is... umm... white, and he has a fish-like tail! There, and his name is... umm... Kugo! That's it! Damn, I'm a genius.

[Xyex]

The sheer number of years that millions of gamers spent digging out combo after combo, strategy after strategy, play style after play style for the various characters in any one of the original Street Fighter II games from Hyper Fighting onward alone disagrees with this statement.

And yet, at the end of the day, I do still see some of these 'greats' get their buts kicked by button mashers. Hell, I did it at the arcades a few times myself because their bragging and/or controlling of the game was irritating.

I mean, I can understanding enjoying something purely for the mechanics of the system and the challenge you can get from it but, at the end of the day, it's a rather shallow experience and enjoyment, from my experience.

For the really well-designed games in this genre, that’s something that takes far, far, FAR longer to learn and master than “in about 5 hours, if that”, and anyone who seriously argues otherwise is frankly speaking full of shit and is talking entirely out of their ass.

This requires caring about getting that deep and unless there's something there to make me care, and the mechanics alone wont do it, then after five hours I've seen what the game has to offer and there's no reason to go back.

I could never in a trillion years wrap my head around that kind of mentality towards video games. Never. A game, an action-oriented game specifically, has to sell me on its gameplay first before I’ll start to see if I might actually care about its storyline and characters. If I do then that’s a wonderful, marvelous bonus… but if not, then so long as the gameplay is good to the point where it still engages me, then it’s really an inconsequential loss.

And this has never made sense to me, something I can't wrap my head around. If I don't like the characters or the story I don't want to play the game. The characters/story have to make me care about the game in order to play it. No amount of great gameplay is going to make me like the characters and if I don't like the characters I don't care what happens in the game and have no reason to play it.

I have to wonder, how long have you been playing video games? Did you come into it by the 32-bit era (i.e. PS1 and N64), or before that? If you came into it before that, either you must’ve stuck solely to RPGs and adventure games, or I can only guess that you must’ve absolutely hated about 85 to 90% of everything you ever played outside of those or similar-such genres, considering how much of what was out there during that time lacked any kind of coherent storyline whatsoever. I mean you had cases like the NES Ninja Gaiden games sure, but those were rare, rare exceptions to the general rule at the time.

I started in the NES era, actually. SMB3, Kirby, the two Golgo 13 games, Kabuki: Quantum Fighter, TMNT2 and TMNT3, the Ninja Gaiden games, and Little Nemo were some of my favorites on the NES, along with a handful of RPGs. I probably played Kirby, TMNT3, and Dragon Warrior the most on that system.

I can certainly agree that a truly special game is a game that has “masterpiece” stamped all over both its gameplay and its storyline in equal doses. I’ve played all the games you listed except for Hybrid Heaven (and my experience with Ico was fairly limited), and I’ll certainly agree with the considerable merit of every one of them to one extent or another.

Hybrid Heaven's a game you either love or hate, no real middle ground. It's an RPG of a sort. Real time turn-based fighting RPG would be the easiest way to describe it. I love the combat in it but it gets tedious near the end and only the story ever makes me finish when I play it.

Again though, maybe its telling or maybe its not, but while none of those games are RPGs, they were also all made during the 32-bit era or later… the 32-bit era being the period where narrative storytelling in games began to gain a real foothold in a large chunk of the output of genres outside of usual RPG, strategy, and adventure genres.

I listed newer games because they're usually fresher in my memory and there's less chance of a 'nostalgia cloud' around the experience. For older generations you've got the NES titles I mentioned above (especially the Golgo 13 games, the Ninja Gaiden Games, and Kirby) as well as games from the SNES/Genesis era like Flashback, Star Fox, and Comix Zone. There's others but most of my 16-bit experience is in RPGs because RPGs were where the good stories could usually be found. Sure, 'back in the day', as it were, I'd deal with weak and flimsy and not all there stories because that's all there was. But even in the NES days I always wanted something more out of my games.

My current game collection for the N64 is made up primarily of games with good or interesting stories. Ocarina of Time, Resident Evil 2, Conker's Bad Fur Day, Hybrid Heaven, Shadow Man, and Perfect Dark, for instance. The fact that they all have excellent gameplay as well as good to excellent stories is a major bonus. Gameplay, to me, is about 45% of the experience. The story takes another 45% while graphics, sound, etc, make up the last 10% of the quality and experience. My games without story get played far less, such as my racing games and Pokemon Stadium.

My PS2 library totals 59 games (holy shit o_o I hadn't realized I had that many XD) and of those 21 are RPGs (and 8 are DBZ games). Of the rest the vast majority are story driven games such as God of War, Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, Beyond Good and Evil, Indigo Prophecy, and so on. Now, I'm not saying a game needs an epic masterpiece of a story to be good. Sometimes a bare-bones story is good enough, and the gameplay is as such to carry the rest. Ico's story is actually told, by-and-large, through the gameplay. Robot Alchemic Drive has a really thin story (giant alien robots invade, you beat them up with your own giant alien robot) but is still good because the gameplay can hold it up. But if the story is awful then no amount of quality gameplay can support it.

I highlighted the above portion because I think it’s the most telling part of exactly where we’re differing on this issue: I don’t in any way, shape, or form consider the act of playing through a well constructed, well designed, flawlessly playing and controlling game (fighting or otherwise) to be anything even remotely approaching anything I could conceivably call a chore of all things.

No matter how good the gameplay is, if the story is no good then the only thing left from the game is beating it. Simply beating a game is not entertainment, it's a task, and tasks involve chores. No matter how good the gameplay is, if I don't feel like I'm accomplishing something in the game world then what I'm doing is just a chore I need to do in order to finish the game.

Not having the act of enjoying the gameplay itself coming as the first and foremost primary objective in terms of what the game is meant to offer is certainly NOT the kind of philosophy on video game design that I signed up into this hobby for.

I signed up to be entertained and if I don't care about the characters, or the story is horrid, then no amount of quality gameplay is going to entertain me for long. A good to great story with passable to bad gameplay, however, can continue to entertain me for quite some time. For instance, while I love the LoK series as a whole, I'm not very fond of Blood Omen's controls or combat. They're too slow, too clunky, and not much fun. But I greatly enjoyed the game because the story was involve and intriguing, the world was interesting, and the characters were interesting. I'll admit, part of my enjoyment was knowing what came after Blood Omen (having started the series with SR2 and BO2) and being interested in the beginnings of it, in filling in those gaps. But the point is if the story hadn't been there and been so good I wouldn't have worked my way through the game. I've already sold and traded-in games with horrible stories but good gameplay because the lasting entertainment value just isn't there for me.

Look at Donkey Kong. Super Mario Brothers. Street Fighter II. Tetris. The original Mega Man series. The original Sonic the Hedgehog series. Metroid. Space Invaders. Galaga. Punch-Out. Gradius. Shinobi. I could go on forever.

Sure, games can be entertaining just for gameplay for a little while, but it just doesn't have a lasting value. Gaming in America was dying before the NES came to the states. Arcades were on their way out and are pretty much an extinct animal around here these days. Also, in the games listed above, only SMB (and then only SMB3), Metroid, and Punch-Out have ever managed to hold my interest for more than 30 minutes at a time.

There’s something to be said for a game that doesn’t require you to sit through minutes on end of cutscenes and backstory before you’re even allowed to press a single button,

Xenosaga1/2/3? Metal Gear Solid 2/3?

I dunno, maybe I'm just not impatient and willing to sit there and be entertained by the game, instead of being jittery and wanting to push a button every few seconds. I mean, that's how it feels a lot when people complain about cutscenes and cutscene lengths and so forth. I've seen complaints about Xenosaga's first few hours of the game being about 70% cutscene, and about it's one span of cutscenes that's about 45 minutes long, but I don't mind them in the least. In fact, I love just sitting there and watching the story unfold, watching the characters develop, and just being entertained. I don't need to be pushing a button every five seconds to find enjoyment in game.

but truly difficult and time consuming to actually master

Why should I care about 'mastering' it if I don't care about the story/characters/game, though?

If what you’re after in gaming is primarily something that tickles your literary leanings above all else,

Oh, I like fighting games and the challenge in skill and reflexes they represent. I just want to be able to give a damn about the characters, about the outcome of a fight beyond my own personal involvement, to actually enjoy it on a lasting level that isn't all about self-gratification and having it now. No matter how good the gameplay is, once you put down the controller/step away from the machine, the enjoyment of the game ends. Not so with a good story or interesting characters.

along with what you consider to be a “chore” that has to be worked through in order to get there

It's only a chore when the game gives me no reason to care about the gameplay other than the fact that it doesn't suck.

If a whole vast swath of gamers didn’t feel that way as well for so long, then gaming (certainly console gaming at least) most certainly would not have survived the 70’s, 80’s, and vast bulk of the 90’s.

It almost didn't. Nintendo and the NES saved gaming, at least in the states.

That purpose is the single most fundamental aspect of the genre, one that’s rooted to its very fabric of existence, something which cannot be taken away without unraveling the whole ordeal into a “once and done” experience, ala the Budokai games. Few people ever come back to games like those after beating story mode and unlocking everything, whereas people STILL TO THIS VERY DAY, decades after the fact, come back time and time and time again to games like Street Fighter II, King of Fighters, and Samurai Shodown, games with hardly a whit of unlockable content between them. There is in fact a reason for this, and it isn’t story-related in the slightest.

I'll take playing through Budokai 1's story mode over an equal amount of time spent playing SF, KoF, or SS. Don't get me wrong, I like those games. I was a HUGE Samurai Showdown addict at the arcades. But that's also where games like that are best, at the arcades. You play for 30 to 40 minutes, at most, and then you move on. Gameplay enjoyment is good for a 'quick fix' and that's really about it. Lasting entertainment value requires a little more effort. I'm not saying to sacrifice the the quality of the game to make sure the story is great, I'm just saying don't make a shitty story in favor of making the greatest gameplay ever, either.

Arcades died primarily because the technological capabilities of consoles began to (amazingly) outpace and overcome that of arcade developers.

Arcades were floundering before the NES debuted stateside.

In America maybe, but not Japan.

Oh, I know. But Japan is a whoooole other animal when it comes to a lot of things, including gaming.

Reading kunzait's post makes me want to play Super DBZ. I've played it for about 10 minutes before at a friend's house, but then I bought it and have yet to put it in the PS2...

I've played it fairly heavily. No where near as much as the Budokai or even the BT games, but I do like the title. I'd just enjoy spending two hours playing through the story mode of the Budokai games more than two hours playing the Arcade mode of SDBZ.

I like this idea, but the highlighted part: You mean Dragonball AF?

The real (read: original) AF doesn't take place after GT. It replaces GT.

[caejones]

Ur... so how about an "arcade mode" with a small number of character / storyline fights, and appropriate start/end dialogue? Vaguely like what the SF:Alpha series tried to do?
For instance, have a set number of "bosses" at specific points in what would otherwise be a traditional arcade mode. It'd be super-tedious to try and cover every fight (and I'd appreciate being able to change characters at times... ), but adjusting specific things based on who's in play ... could... be interesting?
Y' know, like Piccolo would have to fight Goku, Freeza, Cell, T'en would have to fight ... Goku. And... Cell... I'm seeing a pattern already....
Umm... Yeah. *Goes off to scheme* ... *again*

[Xyex]

Ur... so how about an "arcade mode" with a small number of character / storyline fights, and appropriate start/end dialogue? Vaguely like what the SF:Alpha series tried to do?
For instance, have a set number of "bosses" at specific points in what would otherwise be a traditional arcade mode. It'd be super-tedious to try and cover every fight (and I'd appreciate being able to change characters at times... ), but adjusting specific things based on who's in play ... could... be interesting?
Y' know, like Piccolo would have to fight Goku, Freeza, Cell, T'en would have to fight ... Goku. And... Cell... I'm seeing a pattern already....
Umm... Yeah. *Goes off to scheme* ... *again*

That's about what I was thinking for it. Give each character a couple specific fights, a 'mid boss' and 'final boss' that have little story bits before and after them. My choices would be:

Goku - Freeza and Majin Vegeta
Piccolo - Goku and 17
King Piccolo - Krillin and Goku
Krillin - King Piccolo and 18
Videl - Ultimate Gohan and Cell
Chi-Chi - Videl and Cell
Trunks - Cyborg Freeza and Cell
Vegeta - Goku and 18
Majin Vegeta - Goku and Buu
"Teen" Gohan - Goku and Cell
Ultimate Gohan - Majin Vegeta and Buu
Buu - Majin Vegeta and Ultimate Gohan
Android 16 - Trunks and Goku
Android 17 - "Teen" Gohan and Piccolo
Android 18 - Krillin and Vegeta
Cell - Goku and "Teen" Gohan
Freeza - Piccolo and Goku
Cyborg Freeza - Trunks and Goku

[caejones]

My only question is regarding ChiChi and Videl Vs. Cell, Hee... *ponders otherworld filler* XD

... My problem is that I always try to do too much at once.

[Xyex]

My only question is regarding ChiChi and Videl Vs. Cell, Hee... *ponders otherworld filler* XD

Heh. Time travel! Chi-Chi goes to the future and fights Videl because she's bothering Gohan, then goes back and fights Cell so that Gohan wont have to! And Videl fights Gohan as training and then Cell escapes from Hell and since everyone else is busy Videl has to put him down herself.

[Vashkey]

I think Dragon Ball Z games should just toss out the story mode unless they can figure out a way to make it more fun and interesting. As it is I'm tired of seeing cut scenes depicting events a dozen other games have already done, not to mention I've already watched the series through several times. If I wanted to watch Dragon Ball I'd watch it. When I play a game I expect to play and have fun.

I know I'm not the only one tired of it. And I doubt new comers at this point is much of a concern. Regardless people don't need elaborate plots in order to enjoy fighting games. People didn't play Street Fighter II or Mortal Combat back in the day because they cared about the characters or the half baked story. They enjoyed it for the gameplay and with fighting games that what matters most.

In short I think developers should spend more time making their game fun rather than trying to make impressive flashy cut scenes that most players will only watch once and never bother to play the story mode again after completion.

[Kendamu]

They could just skim by the story mode for all I care right now. Really, if they did something similar to the story segments from Idainaru Dragonball Densetsu then I'd be really happy. I mean, they're basically colored manga panels with narration and neat music that give context to the next fight!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DktAgM6mSs

[fktizle]

I wouldn't necessarily want a new story mode. It's DBZ, the whole thing is a story. What-ifs are only good if they involve some fights that could never actually happen. The only way they could make some new story mode would be if they added some new What if characters, and to be honest, I wish they just had all the characters before they started these random what if characters.

I wish they did something like Budokai 3 combined with Legacy of Goku. Make it so you have to fly and find stuff like the Dragonballs. I say make it like Legacy of Goku 2 because I always thought it was cool how they incorporated the movie characters into the actual story.

I'd make it something like if you kill Raditz without having to kill Goku, then the Garlic Movie comes up and you have to fight him. That would make everything a little more entertaining. To me, as long as they make the story enjoyable and incorporate GT and DB, I really don't care about What-ifs. To me, exhibition = what if.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I wish they did something like Budokai 3 combined with Legacy of Goku. Make it so you have to fly and find stuff like the Dragonballs. I say make it like Legacy of Goku 2 because I always thought it was cool how they incorporated the movie characters into the actual story.

I don't know why so many people liked this "flying around" thing in Budokai 3's story mode. Frankly, I don't need to fly around pointlessly on fucking DB hunts just to get to the story's battles and progress the story.

[caejones]

I wish they did something like Budokai 3 combined with Legacy of Goku. Make it so you have to fly and find stuff like the Dragonballs. I say make it like Legacy of Goku 2 because I always thought it was cool how they incorporated the movie characters into the actual story.

I don't know why so many people liked this "flying around" thing in Budokai 3's story mode. Frankly, I don't need to fly around pointlessly on fucking DB hunts just to get to the story's battles and progress the story.

Now, see, this is the point Kunzait was making (sorta).
Basically, if you want to play the fighting game, you have to play the watered down RPG.
The RPG-like part can be fun and interesting all over the place; it's making it a necessary part of the fighting part that's kinda "?".
The example that comes to mind is MK:Deceptions... but... the hidden characters in that game feel like they add so little that for me Konquest and not-Konquest are effectively completely separate games. Well, that, and Konquest expanded on the universe (with an OC to boot...), so yay.
Budokai 3's "Dragon Universe" seems on the similar side to me (Bleh, I'm Zordon either way. T.T ), except the way the game works, you're pretty limited if you don't go into it to unlock characters and capsules out the wazoo.
I think Sparking! Meteor's starting with like 50 people unlocked was an improvement, but meh.

So clearly, we need John Vodgil to work on the next DB/Z game. And by John Vodgil, I mean Kaboom, and by next DB/Z game, I mean GT:Revised. And by Kaboom, I mean me, and by GT:Revised I mean five essays I have to write in four hours.