Dabra v. SSJ Goku - Interesting match?

[Kaboom]

But "he had a reason to" is not proof that he did.

Goku had "a good reason" to go Super Saiyan 3 to beat Vegeta quickly so he could go help Gohan and Kaioshin, but he didn't. Vegeta had "a good reason" to finish of Semiperfect Cell, but he didn't. Goku had "a good reason" to finish off Freeza quickly instead of letting him power up, but he didn't.

Gohan had "a good reason" to get pissed off and use Super Saiyan 2 to fight Dabra. But he didn't. We could all sit around and debate why he didn't all day, but that doesn't change the fact that he didn't.

[Xyex]

Plus, his hair is as his SSJ2 style, not SSJ1, just without the lightning.

Gohan's hair, from the time of the Budokai onward, is the same in SSJ and SSJ2. There's no difference.

Gohan had "a good reason" to get pissed off and use Super Saiyan 2 to fight Dabra. But he didn't. We could all sit around and debate why he didn't all day, but that doesn't change the fact that he didn't.

This about sums it up. But I wouldn't even go so far as to say he has a good reason, or any reason, really. Sure, beating Dabura is the only way to turn Piccolo and Krillin back to normal but... even if he doesn't do it, Goku's there. Vegeta's there. Someone will do it. It's not all riding on him.

[Son_Gohan]

Anger has always been Gohan's Ace since the battle with Radditz. It gives him an enormous boost of power. This power is needed to go SSJ2 because he's become so friggin' weak. In ROSAT, Gohan learned to control that anger so he could transform into regular SSJ. In regards to no anger against Kibito, he takes his time doing 'something' to the point that he becomes half-SSJ (SSJ aura+eyes). When he transforms, this causes him to jump straight to SSJ2. So he either he spent that time slowly gathering up power so that he's at a point where transforming takes him beyond SSJ, or he's slowly increasing his anger. Regardless, he doesn't have the time to just sit there and focus while in battle with Dabura, so they tell him to get angry. If it is rage-related, problem solved. If it's power-related, then getting angry will give him the boost he needs.

I thought Super Saiyan transformations work as multipliers of the preceding form. As long as the Saiyan has unlocked the ability the first time, and is able to transform under their own will (something Gohan evidently displayed at the tournament), then I don't see why Gohan's atrophied power would have an effect on that; he'd just be a weak SSJ2. Gohan may have achieved greater control over his emotions after training in the ROSAT, but the degree of anger needed to raise his battle power was never something he could willingly control, there is always an external catalyst. While facing Kibito, he builds up his Ki from his base form, bypassing the first stage of Super Saiyan, going straight to SSJ2. Which explains the partial physical traits; Goku also displayed something similar when training in the Afterlife, he had the same aura too.

I see Toriyama not giving Gohan bio-electricity as a way of representing his weakness, to show that he's not 'fully-charged'. Because he certainly displayed other traits that would suggest he was using SSJ2, such as the hair, and even the durability; Dabura wasn't able to inflict much damage on Gohan even after hitting him with a powerful magic attack, and if he was supposed to be weaker than his Cell Games self, I find it hard to believe he'd come out without a scratch with just SSJ1.

[Mewzard]

But "he had a reason to" is not proof that he did.

Goku had "a good reason" to go Super Saiyan 3 to beat Vegeta quickly so he could go help Gohan and Kaioshin, but he didn't. Vegeta had "a good reason" to finish of Semiperfect Cell, but he didn't. Goku had "a good reason" to finish off Freeza quickly instead of letting him power up, but he didn't.

Gohan had "a good reason" to get pissed off and use Super Saiyan 2 to fight Dabra. But he didn't. We could all sit around and debate why he didn't all day, but that doesn't change the fact that he didn't.

Goku was protecting Vegeta's pride (i.e, SSJ3 was made up after that fight), and Vegeta's an arrogant ass. Gohan? Not so much. As far as Freeza, it was odd of Goku to do so, but we could attribute that to his first SSJ change bringing out some of that primal Saiyan desire for fighting to the forefront initially.

Gohan had none of these reasons from what we saw.

And the same in SSJ and SSJ2? He never transforms again after gaining the power up from the elder Kaioshin, and before that, but after the Budokai, we see him changed how many times in the manga? Not many. We don't even see him change in the Dabura fight, it just skips to where he's already changed.

[Vegeta Jr]

I thought Gohan in SSJ1 had two bangs whereas SSJ2 only had one big one.

[Savage68]

There's a very good reason why Gohan didn't go Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra. Because he's unpracticed with it. He hasn't trained much at all, much less in order to perfect and control the new transformation since he first pulled it out on Cell.

But he did it for no compelling reason, back at the Budokai, and was sure of his capability to do so beforehand. Why would he offer to do something that's potentially difficult or taxing for him, and especially when it wasn't necessary to begin with? No one said he perfected or controlled the transformation since the Cell Games, because that obviously couldn't be the case. Neither Goku nor Vegeta perfected or controlled SSJ before they went into the Rosat, but could activate it on a whim. Goku was admittedly inexperienced with SSJ3, and he changed into that instantly.

I understand where you're coming from. I really do. But when you have a really weak SSJ1 Gohan fighting against someone that's comparable to Cell (suppressed Cell or not), and Gohan/Dabura taking a ton of damage from the high SSJ2-tier Majin Buu...I don't understand how he could be so weak against them.

[Kaboom]

I thought Gohan in SSJ1 had two bangs whereas SSJ2 only had one big one.

In the Saiyaman arc, it did. But either his hair seems to have grown or otherwise changed a bit between then, or Toriyama just started drawing him a bit differently. Because he has only one big bang in both SSj and SSj2 from the Tournament and onwards.

I understand where you're coming from. I really do. But when you have a really weak SSJ1 Gohan fighting against someone that's comparable to Cell (suppressed Cell or not), and Gohan/Dabura taking a ton of damage from the high SSJ2-tier Majin Buu...I don't understand how he could be so weak against them.

1) We never saw Gohan actually try against Cell before SSj2. All he did was deliver one self-defensive kick that actually knocked Cell on his butt and made him bleed. We don't know how he'd compared to full-power Cell at just SSj1, only that he would do a heckuva lot better than Goku.

2) Kaioshin also survived fighting Majin Boo at that point, and unless I'm mistaken, actually lasted longer than Gohan. But he's definitely not comparable to any Super Saiyan 2s. There's no certain "percentage" that you have to be to survive a beat-down from somebody.

[Savage68]

1) We never saw Gohan actually try against Cell before SSj2. All he did was deliver one self-defensive kick that actually knocked Cell on his butt and made him bleed. We don't know how he'd compared to full-power Cell at just SSj1, only that he would do a heckuva lot better than Goku.

Right, so since we don't know, there's no reason to assume that Cell's massive power-up would still serve to be inferior to Gohan, who was already using all of his SSJ1 power. Gohan's kick would've done a lot more damage to Cell, had he been so much stronger at that point - regardless of if he wasn't wasn't technically trying his hardest with that attack. It would be like full-power Cell not really trying, but still using a single kick on FPSSJ Goku. It would've defeated him, because the difference in strength was too great.

2) Kaioshin also survived fighting Majin Boo at that point, and unless I'm mistaken, actually lasted longer than Gohan. But he's definitely not comparable to any Super Saiyan 2s. There's no certain "percentage" that you have to be to survive a beat-down from somebody.

There's not a certain percentage for anything, but Buu was still as powerful or more powerful than a SSJ2 at that point. Gohan said it would require all of his power to kill Buu. Buu was strong enough to make Goku worried and stop his battle. All this, before he even increased his power. You don't need that much more strength than someone to totally own them - and Buu did that to three different folks.

And Gohan was stated to have displayed a greater amount of power than he did at the Budokai, at some point in time between the end of the Budokai and before the Z-Sword training.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Kaioshin was surely referring to the Kamehameha that Gohan fired at Boo's egg. Gohan never displayed any kind of amazing power while fighting Dabra ("Gee Kibito, you should have seen Gohan get his ass kicked by Dabra! He was extremely powerful!!!").

[Savage68]

That's hilarious, especially since Gohan didn't get his ass kicked by Dabura. The power of a SSJ Kamehameha would, in no way, be stronger than a stationary SSJ2. Unless Gohan's full-power is now SSJ1.

[Xyex]

I see Toriyama not giving Gohan bio-electricity as a way of representing his weakness, to show that he's not 'fully-charged'.

This is a nice try but it fails because Gohan already displayed the lightning bolts at the Budokai against Kibito. He didn't suddenly become even weaker between fighting Kibito and fighting Dabura.

Because he certainly displayed other traits that would suggest he was using SSJ2,

"Other traits"? With Gohan there are no other traits.

such as the hair, and even the durability; Dabura wasn't able to inflict much damage on Gohan even after hitting him with a powerful magic attack, and if he was supposed to be weaker than his Cell Games self, I find it hard to believe he'd come out without a scratch with just SSJ1.

His hair is the same in both SSJ1 and SSJ2 from the World Tournament onward. So that's not a trait. Surviving being hit by an attack is also not a trait of SSJ2, just one of not being considerably weaker than the attack. The only reason you find it hard to believe he'd come out 'without a scratch' from that attack is because you are under the misconception that Dabura is stronger than he is, or that Gohan is weaker than he is.

I thought Gohan in SSJ1 had two bangs whereas SSJ2 only had one big one.

Saiyaman Saga SSJ1 Gohan had two bangs. When he transformed at the Budokai during Videl's fight he only had one.

Anyway, this entire debate is ridiculous. Gohan was SSJ1 against Dabura, plain and simple. There's nothing, anywhere, to even remotely suggest otherwise.

[Savage68]

Anyway, this entire debate is ridiculous. Gohan was SSJ1 against Dabura, plain and simple. There's nothing, anywhere, to even remotely suggest otherwise.

Are you trying to troll? Everything in this very topic begs to differ. Just because you say there's no evidence doesn't make it true.

[Xyex]

Anyway, this entire debate is ridiculous. Gohan was SSJ1 against Dabura, plain and simple. There's nothing, anywhere, to even remotely suggest otherwise.

Are you trying to troll? Everything in this very topic begs to differ. Just because you say there's no evidence doesn't make it true.

You saying over and over again that he was because you think Dabura has to be stronger than any SSJ1 ever doesn't count as evidence. Gohan was drawn as an SSJ1, nothing in the plot requires him not to be an SSJ1, and nothing contradicts him being an SSJ1. Therefore, he is an SSJ1.

[Son_Gohan]

This is a nice try but it fails because Gohan already displayed the lightning bolts at the Budokai against Kibito. He didn't suddenly become even weaker between fighting Kibito and fighting Dabura.

According to Kibito he did.

"Other traits"? With Gohan there are no other traits.

No, that's just what you've chosen to believe. If there were no other traits given, there would be no debate to begin with.

His hair is the same in both SSJ1 and SSJ2 from the World Tournament onward. So that's not a trait. Surviving being hit by an attack is also not a trait of SSJ2, just one of not being considerably weaker than the attack. The only reason you find it hard to believe he'd come out 'without a scratch' from that attack is because you are under the misconception that Dabura is stronger than he is, or that Gohan is weaker than he is.

That doesn't make any sense, there's no reason at all for Toriyama to give both forms the exact same hair, if he didn't care about it he would've had all SSJ forms share one hairstyle. That is evidently not the case. So are you implying that this 'weakened' SSJ1 Gohan is stronger than Dabura? In the Cell Games, Perfect Cell and SSJ1 Gohan's powers weren't far apart from each other, and Cell's blows were still inflicting damage. Yet, when a full-powered Cell delivers a punch to a SSJ2 Gohan, it had no effect... if a Buu arc SSJ1 Gohan is supposed to be substantially weaker than his Cell Games counterpart, he's not going to take an attack head on (from an opponent hyped to be of about Perfect Cell's level) and come out unscratched, it doesn't matter how you look at it; that just wouldn't happen.

If you view him as SSJ2 everything seems to fit in, with all that's given. While viewing him as a SSJ1, you'd have to come up with your own subjective reasonings for why he wouldn't use his strongest form. Whether it's; Gohan is "unable" to transform (even though he or anyone else never states this), Gohan would take too long to transform (even though he never addresses this as an issue), Gohan needs to be in an intense rage to access SSJ2 (even though he transforms willingly at the tournament), Gohan was intentionally holding back (even though it's never stated or expressed on his part), so on and so forth... and even after the Dabura fight you'd still have to find a reason why he still wouldn't use SSJ2, even when it's apparent he's trying to reach the full potential of his power, which I doubt was of his "SSJ1" state (although some people may even still try arguing that). At the end of the day, you're only looking at one trait and having it take precedence over all others, even when it does not have to be there. We have seen SSJ2 without an aura, and still maintain the form; so why would auras and lightning be the most important trait when they evidently don't even need them to be within the form?

[Savage68]

You saying over and over again that he was because you think Dabura has to be stronger than any SSJ1 ever doesn't count as evidence.

It does when it's true, and every attempt to skew it's validity has been smacked down by me. But I guess if Gohan has to be SSJ against Dabura, rules need to be changed to make it work coherently.

[Bussani]

While viewing him as a SSJ1, you'd have to come up with your own subjective reasonings for why he wouldn't use his strongest form.

Because your side of the argument doesn't use any "subjective reasonings" at all, right?

No one who's undeniably known to be SSJ2 at the time has ever been without lightning in their aura, except when they don't have an aura at all. But your explanation is either that Toriyama forgot the lightning or that Gohan wasn't at full power and therefore didn't have it. Neither makes sense, if you ask me, but you've decided that it does because the rest of your logic works that way.

[Rocketman]

Toriyama must be really forgetful to leave out Gohan's lightning on two separate pages when on the page between then, Goku and Vegeta both are surrounded by lightning.

[Savage68]

Toriyama must be really forgetful to leave out Gohan's lightning on two separate pages when on the page between then, Goku and Vegeta both are surrounded by lightning.

This was said about 10 different times already, and I still don't know who this sarcasm is supposed to be aimed at. Who's claiming that the author 'forgot' the aura? How is that even possible?

No one who's undeniably known to be SSJ2 at the time has ever been without lightning in their aura, except when they don't have an aura at all.

SSJ2 kid Gohan refutes this. So does SSJ2 Vegeta.

[Rocketman]

So does SSJ2 Vegeta.

When was this?

[Savage68]

During the fight with Buu, directly following the "angry explosion", I believe.