If an accurate re-dub surfaced, would you watch it?

[KakaR0T]

This has to do with the way that our brains interpret written language (by the shape of entire words, rather than by individual "letters").

Taht rmenids me of semnoithg I raed aubot how if the frist and lsat lteter of a wrod is in the rgiht pacle you can siltl udrneatsnd the wrod as a wohel. So eevn if the sbuetilts were wertitn lkie tihs tehy wloud sltil be qciuk and esay to crmpoehned.

[TonyTheTiger]

Also... every other country in the world who's totally got subtitles ingrained in their accepted culture is laughing at those who don't .

I really don't understand what you're getting at here because under no circumstances does the U.S. and North America in general differ from the rest of the world in this respect. Foreign films are constantly brought over subtitled for the obvious reason that dubbing live action doesn't work right. Animation, on the other hand, is dubbed all the time because it lends itself to it. This is how it's done in every country I know of. You're insinuating the the U.S. dubs more than other countries which is just false. Go to any movie theater showing foreign films and see for yourself. They're all subtitled. Even the "actiony" non-artsy fartsy ones like Brotherhood of the Wolf. And look up any cartoon you want on YouTube to then find dubs of Disney films and popular cartoons in Spanish, French, German, Japanese, Korean, Hebrew, etc.

And, like I said, all proposed "reasons" for preferring one version over another have holes in them. You can't beat down another preference by saying it's flawed when it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Live and let live.

[JulieYBM]

I've always found that reading subtitles makes me pay closer attention to the entirety of the product. Very rarely is something happening on screen that basically isn't a character standing there and talking using the same frames over again, so it's not like I can't take a quick glance at the subtitles and then pay attention to the performance with my ol' ears. Great performances always transcend language anyhow...

[Cipher]

And, yeah, Tenchi Muyo in Love was recorded in English first due to some weird scheduling thing, I think. Vampire Hunter D Bloodlust might be a better example because not only was it recorded in English first but it was actually first shown in Japan in English with Japanese subs. I think the Animatrix might also fall into this category. And forget Batman: Gotham Knight and Halo Legends. These "western animes" are kind of hard to pin down as far as original language goes. Yeah, I'll watch it with both tracks and might prefer one to the other. But I'd be kidding myself if I tried defending my preference by saying it's "original."

That's not really fair. It's about what most preserves the original directorial and scripted intent. If it's a joint production, as in the case of things like Gotham Knight, Halo Legends, etc, it was planned from square one with two languages in mind. Each preserves the intent.

It's when you have to rework elements without significant input from the original director/crew that more emphasis should be placed on the original production. As in, when you're dealing with the triple-whammy of translation, lip-flap matching, and a new voice cast all orchestrated by an entirely new team.

I really don't understand what you're getting at here because under no circumstances does the U.S. and North America in general differ from the rest of the world in this respect. Foreign films are constantly brought over subtitled for the obvious reason that dubbing live action doesn't work right. Animation, on the other hand, is dubbed all the time because it lends itself to it. This is how it's done in every country I know of. You're insinuating the the U.S. dubs more than other countries which is just false. Go to any movie theater showing foreign films and see for yourself. They're all subtitled. Even the "actiony" non-artsy fartsy ones like Brotherhood of the Wolf. And look up any cartoon you want on YouTube to then find dubs of Disney films and popular cartoons in Spanish, French, German, Japanese, Korean, Hebrew, etc.

This is the same argument I made last page, but it really doesn't hold true in the same way and I've retracted it. I've only stayed in Japan for one summer, so someone can correct me on this, but they were much more receptive of subtitled media. I know it wasn't unusual for two channels to play either a subtitled or dubbed version of the same drama (I saw Grey's Anatomy at least once both ways). And while I was there, Die Hard 4 was getting a subtitled theatrical release. That's a blockbuster, not a niche foreign film as subtitled films tend to be billed in the U.S. There are dubs, but they don't take mainstream precedence.

Hell, Japan loves subtitles so much they put them in their own talk shows and game shows..

And Adamant layed out the norm in Norway last page.

[TonyTheTiger]

Great performances always transcend language anyhow...

I tend to disagree. Acting is a complex artform where just emoting isn't enough. Emoting has to be done in the right ways at the right times. There's a lot of subtlety in timing and nuance. Watching live action, yes, I'd agree with you since when you see the actual person you can get that nuance from things other than their voice. But voice actors are limited to only speaking. Without understanding the language it can be extremely hard to distinguish appropriate emoting from hammy overacting.

That's not really fair. It's about what most preserves the original directorial and scripted intent. If it's a joint production, as in the case of things like Gotham Knight, Halo Legends, etc, it was planned from square one with two languages in mind. Each preserves the intent.

It's when you have to rework elements without significant input from the original director/crew that more emphasis should be placed on the original production. As in, when you're dealing with the triple-whammy of translation, lip-flap matching, and a new voice cast all orchestrated by an entirely new team.

Fair enough. In most cases where something is dubbed it's done in a way that's relatively removed from the original studio. Funimation obtains DragonBall from Toei and then does it's thing. I can see how people would be weary of the game of telephone.

But what about something like Metal Gear Solid in which the original people involved in the production actually had substantial input in a subsequent dub and, in the case of Metal Gear, come to like it more than the original language it was intended for? There you've got the same kind of game of telephone going on but there's a blending of "intent" happening, as well. In a way, you could argue that the "original intent" was retconned once Hideo Kojima heard David Hayter's amazing performance.

I'm not saying that people who prefer the Japanese version of something are wrong. I'm just saying that their arguments defending the "why" aren't as airtight as they might think. In a way I'm playing devil's advocate here. The reason I'm attacking the "original intent" argument isn't because I have an axe to grind against the Japanese version or "subbies" but because the trend of the topic has been of people who were using the "original intent" argument while simultaneously accusing the pro-dub arguments as being full of holes. I'm just pointing out the double standard. I'd do the opposite if the roles were reversed.

This is the same argument I made last page, but it really doesn't hold true in the same way and I've retracted it. I've only stayed in Japan for one summer, so someone can correct me on this, but they were much more receptive of subtitled media. I know it wasn't unusual for two channels to play either a subtitled or dubbed version of the same drama (I saw Grey's Anatomy at least once both ways). And while I was there, Die Hard 4 was getting a subtitled theatrical release. That's a blockbuster, not a niche foreign film as subtitled films tend to be billed in the U.S. There are dubs, but they don't take mainstream precedence.

I think there's a reason for that separate from any supposed cultural preference for dubs vs. subs. That has to do with the fact that Hollywood is in California. The U.S. is one of the biggest exporters of entertainment media. There aren't many Japanese movies that compare to the likes of big budget summer blockbusters like Independence Day or Transformers. That reason alone explains why there aren't as many subtitled blockbuster films in the U.S. Most blockbusters are already in English. Same goes for television. American TV shows get sent around the world and are then subtitled because dubbing live action is stupid. But how often do we import Japanese dramas and air them on NBC? I'm sure if we did they'd be subtitled. But, for better or worse, we just don't do it. I don't think it has anything to do with subtitles themselves. It has to do with the U.S. just doing less importing of foreign media than other countries.

Besides, the topic here is about animation anyway. Live action and animation have different rules. Dubbed live action is necessarily awkward so it's no wonder people are more dismissive of it. That's why foreign films are usually subtitled when foreign cartoons are usually dubbed or both. YouTube is full of clips of foreign dubs of both anime and American cartoons, from Disney to The Simpsons to South Park.

[Dr. Casey]

Watching live action, yes, I'd agree with you since when you see the actual person you can get that nuance from things other than their voice. But voice actors are limited to only speaking. Without understanding the language it can be extremely hard to distinguish appropriate emoting from hammy overacting.

I don't think you're completely blind with animation, either. I think there's some actual indicators as to the quality of whatever voice actor, weak though they might be.

- The actor's skill with laughter, screams, etc. Things that obviously can fully be understood the world over. This is something I first made note of with the first season Slayers. There's a scene where Gourry and Sylphiel are gathering firewood, accidentally reach for the same bit of wood at the same time, and break into laughter afterwards. (I think that's what happened, anyway. Been about six years.) The laughter seemed a lot warmer and more authentic in the Japanese version. An episode from the first season of Sailor Moon also comes to mind where Usagi laughs derisively at Mamoru after insulting him during a heated argument. Carried across very well, great bit of acting. And I know that Kyoko seemed pretty damn scary sometimes whenever she screams at her tenants in Maison Ikkoku.

- The actor's performances when speaking names or words that the viewer actually understand. Bulma's concerned "Son-kun..." whenever she comes across Goku mourning Krillin translates perfectly well, it's just a name after all. Or words that are already familiar, like a remorseful 'Gomenasai...' in whichever anime of your choosing.

I'm sure there's been plenty of individual lines of dialogue in anime that I'd view differently if I understood the language, but I do think there's ways of determining the general quality of whoever's work you're watching. If the Japanese actors do a competent or better job with things that can reach someone who knows almost nothing of the language - universal things like laughter or crying, names, or the select few words and phrases I'm familiar with - then I'll trust that those aspects of their history aren't flukes and that they really are just good actors in general. And even just taking actors' performances as a whole, there are some deliveries and performances that strike me as stilted, forced, or just underwhelming, while others are clearly more natural and decent. Not everything's automatically placed under the umbrella of 'I can't understand this, so I can't consider it faulty.' Whether my instincts are right or not and the performances that strike me as bad actually are bad or if my brain's just full of shit, I'm not really sure since I can't understand the language, but...

[Adamant]

Besides, the topic here is about animation anyway. Live action and animation have different rules. Dubbed live action is necessarily awkward so it's no wonder people are more dismissive of it. That's why foreign films are usually subtitled when foreign cartoons are usually dubbed or both. YouTube is full of clips of foreign dubs of both anime and American cartoons, from Disney to The Simpsons to South Park.

I don't know what to say, other than "you're wrong and need to do more research". Whether it's a cartoon or live action has absolutely nothing to do with it, the intended audience is all the matters here. If it's considered directed enough at young children who won't be able to read the subtitles that a dub would be worth it, a dub is produced. Thus, we get dubbed Hannah Montana and subtitled The Simpsons. Demand is all that matters. No one wants a Simpsons dub, because all Simpsons fans can read, but there's enough illiterate kids who'd like to watch Hannah Montana without having someone older read the subtitles to them. Makes sense, don't you think?

[Onikage725]

No, dubs are solely for children here. Any and all attempts to produce a dub targeted at an older audience has been met with protest and massive ridicule.

I think this may be a region thing. In the US, for example, we have a robust voice acting business. Especially in the modern day, there are a number of talented agencies and a number of serious productions putting solid work into a dub. There are even occasionally joint projects between countries that make one think in regards to dub vs sub. Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust, for example. One fan once got on me for preferring that in English, citing as a reason that dubs are never as good as the original vocal cast. Thing is, the English track is quite good...and the original recording. As a joint project, it was recorded in English first, and dubbed in Japanese. The Japanese dubbing is great too. And if you didn't know that little bit, you wouldn't know the difference between it and any other anime production. But it just shows that complaints based on who spoke the lines first are silly, and you should just go with who you personally prefer.

There are a number of good dubs, and good actors too. I love Steve Blum, going back to his role as Agito in the Guyver 12 episode OVA. His career is based around dubbing anime and video games. Sure, a number of dubs muck things up as they try to make the product unique. But a good dub (by my standards, anyway) stays close to the "intent" of the original. One could then argue that the director's intent is what is important. But, many of these shows are based on manga. And not all of the mangaka are very involved (if at all) with the various adaptations of their works. So there is already someone who isn't the originator of the story imposing their vision of the work, yet we all seem fine with watching these shows and movies.

And let's look at video games. Some games have sub par dubs, and some games are best when dual language. But others hold up really well when dubbed. The undub patch for Xenogears, in my opinion, is a god send. But I have no interest in Japanese Metal Gear Solid. Even the series creator gives Dave Hayter major props for his work as Snake.

And there it is! But what does this actually do for you...? This, alone, by itself, is absolutely nothing other than a statement of fact -- it's a state of being. Yes, it's now in English. But... what about it? This by itself says nothing -- it's only the backdrop for your other points.

Heh, I have one. This is sometimes seen as a lazy answer, but sometimes it's about reading. I won't take a crap dub over the original, but I do enjoy having a good dub. One reason? I have crappy eyesight, and I try very hard not to fall asleep with my glasses on. At the risk of TMI, I also have sleep apnea, so I have to get an obnoxious mask on my face that obscures my sight and doesn't lend itself to my glasses. In the mornings I am with my 18 month old son. Not much hardcore anime viewing, unless I'm letting the TV be on with Pokemon in the background. I work evenings, until 3-1130. I tend to do my TV watching during the hour or two after work that I'm winding down. If I throw something dubbed on (say, Yu Yu Hakusho), and it doesn't offend my ears... gravy. If I'm watching, say, Dangaio- well, I have to be a bit more alert for the subs and run the risk of dozing without my mask and with my glasses on. Dubs I can watch more passively.

Also, in some cases, I prefer the dub. Let's be fair here. The Japanese are JUST as susceptible to an off-performance as everyone else. The general anime community seems to assume that anime in Japanese = awesome by nature of it being Japanese. I've seen plenty of shows where the acting was ok but nothing to write home about, or where some actors just sucked. And sometimes, they have good dubs attached to them. I think Cowboy Bebop is good in Japanese, but IMO the dub is outstanding. CB would likely just be "an anime I like" if I only watched the Japanese version, instead of one of my favorites which I frequently revisit. Just my opinion, but my opinion fuels my DVD-watching-habits.

We've been over this in plenty of threads. People get offended with the answers, but that's too bad. If you're even remotely literate, your brain absorbs the subtitles at the bottom of the screen faster than the characters are verbally stating it aloud. This has to do with the way that our brains interpret written language (by the shape of entire words, rather than by individual "letters"). There is plenty of time for you to absorb the subtitles *and* the "action" on-screen... especially older shows (we are primarily talking about DBZ, here) that are only being animated at ~12 fps, anyway. If you're "missing" something, it's because you can't read well enough.

This is the best for-sub argument for the general "I don't like to read" statements you sometimes see. Sometimes I forget a show is in japanese when I'm watching it, cuz the brain reads ahead and often will convert the sound of the actor into the words you just read.

Is it? How? Are you talking about the subtleties of spoken language? It certainly can't be body language, since it's animated and a dubbing voice actor isn't going to showcase that body language any differently. I'd then argue that if the translator handling the subtitles can't get across these subtleties and nuances somehow, then you're right -- that subtitle track isn't worth watching. I'd then question whether or not I want the company who can't hire a proficient subtitler handling the dub for the show, though...

It is hardly a big deal, but with some types of humor there is an argument for inflection. With two different languages, there will be differences in inflection. And, of course, different words will be stressed by the actor (compared to the translation) to get the point across. Some methods of getting humor across rely on more than just reading the script. Sometimes, comedic delivery is just as important. If you don't speak the language, the nuance of that delivery can be lost on you. In these cases, it is nice when a responsible dubbing studio with a talented cast and accurate script have provided you with an alternative.

[TonyTheTiger]

I don't know what to say, other than "you're wrong and need to do more research". Whether it's a cartoon or live action has absolutely nothing to do with it, the intended audience is all the matters here. If it's considered directed enough at young children who won't be able to read the subtitles that a dub would be worth it, a dub is produced. Thus, we get dubbed Hannah Montana and subtitled The Simpsons. Demand is all that matters. No one wants a Simpsons dub, because all Simpsons fans can read, but there's enough illiterate kids who'd like to watch Hannah Montana without having someone older read the subtitles to them. Makes sense, don't you think?

Then Norway is an outlier. Simple as that. Believe me, I've done plenty of research. Like I mentioned above, this is a hobby of mine. If you seriously think that The Simpsons is subtitled in most countries in which it airs, you're kidding yourself. It might be available subtitled in those countries but a dub is produced. So I wouldn't use your microcosm as the measuring stick for the rest of the world like you're doing. But regardless of what Norway does, the insinuation that dubbing is somehow a North American thing is factually false.

[Kid Buu]

If it's Dragon Ball and it's on TV I'm giving it a watch. So the answer is yes.

[Big Momma]

This has to do with the way that our brains interpret written language (by the shape of entire words, rather than by individual "letters").

Taht rmenids me of semnoithg I raed aubot how if the frist and lsat lteter of a wrod is in the rgiht pacle you can siltl udrneatsnd the wrod as a wohel. So eevn if the sbuetilts were wertitn lkie tihs tehy wloud sltil be qciuk and esay to crmpoehned.

I had almost forgotten about that!

[Onikage725]

Ha, I wonder if some words would throw you off. I mean, it would be like forcing your brain to "smart text" and hoping for the best!

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

We've been over this in plenty of threads. People get offended with the answers, but that's too bad. If you're even remotely literate, your brain absorbs the subtitles at the bottom of the screen faster than the characters are verbally stating it aloud. This has to do with the way that our brains interpret written language (by the shape of entire words, rather than by individual "letters"). There is plenty of time for you to absorb the subtitles *and* the "action" on-screen... especially older shows (we are primarily talking about DBZ, here) that are only being animated at ~12 fps, anyway. If you're "missing" something, it's because you can't read well enough.

Okay, note how I said "focus more on the action". You can't honestly say that nothing down to every single detail is missed while reading subtitles. If you're watching the dub you'll see a bit more than if you're watching the sub.

Is it? How? Are you talking about the subtleties of spoken language? It certainly can't be body language, since it's animated and a dubbing voice actor isn't going to showcase that body language any differently. I'd then argue that if the translator handling the subtitles can't get across these subtleties and nuances somehow, then you're right -- that subtitle track isn't worth watching. I'd then question whether or not I want the company who can't hire a proficient subtitler handling the dub for the show, though....

I'm talking about verbal jokes that only Japanese people would get, that can't possibly be expressed in subtitles without those stupid "translator notes" you see in fansubs. But nobody wants those.

[VegettoEX]

I'm talking about verbal jokes that only Japanese people would get, that can't possibly be expressed in subtitles without those stupid "translator notes" you see in fansubs. But nobody wants those.

Snot a problem for competent translators. Don't blame the show or the existence of subtitles -- blame the lack of professionalism in the release you're watching that isn't DBZ.

[Gaffer Tape]

Really? Nobody wants those? Because I personally love those translator notes that tell me things like Chichi accidentally used the term for "thermos" instead of "widow" because the words are very similar. Obviously, given the example I just used, Simmons uses those on occasion as well. It's one of those things that conveys information that simply can't be expressed in a dub. Not sure why anyone would want less accurate subtitles.

[Adamant]

Because languages are different, and "truly accurate" subtitles would require about 5 notes per sentence explaining the intricacies of each word used.
As for puns and other word-related jokes, jokes that don't work unless you explain them just aren't funny. Just play around with the sentence a bit, and you can generally come up with something similar in the language you're translating to.

(also, these notes are generally too long and placed on the top of the screen when there are dialogue subtitles at the bottom, making you have to pause the video in order to catch them. Nobody wants to do that.

[Gaffer Tape]

Hmm, again, I've never had that problem with Simmons, even when he uses translation notes. I still laugh at the joke, mostly because I feel I fully understand it. Actually, I was a bit disappointed that he didn't use that for most of his Kaio gags, simply because, while the intent came across, I wasn't sure I got where the original joke was. I was able to listen to the actual dialogue and hear the play on words myself, but I do wish he'd used notes on that.

[KakaR0T]

If they dropped some F-bombs in there then sure I would watch a re-dub.

[TonyTheTiger]

I think the point is that a viewer isn't going to get a "pure" experience unless he knows Japanese and watches it raw. Both subs and dubs create an alternate experience, however good or bad, in different ways. The way a person's eyes move while watching a subbed anime is not the same way a person's eyes move while watching a raw one. That's pretty obvious. That does change the viewing experience, however slight it may be. We might be able to say that subs are a necessary evil or a best attempt, but it is in fact not the exact same experience. It's just the best a non-speaker can hope for. Dubs can preserve the viewing experience but necessarily sacrifices the auditory one. You might be able to say that the auditory sacrifice from a dub is larger than the viewing sacrifice from a sub, but let's not pretend subs are a perfect solution. The only perfect solution is to spend a shit load of time with Rosetta Stone.

[Blue]

If they dropped some F-bombs in there then sure I would watch a re-dub.

A fan of Anime Labs I see?