DBZ: English VS Japanese

[Questrider]

I know, I know. This probably is not the best place to post these thoughts but then again, maybe it really is.

I know now that Daizenshuu EX is primarily a site for fans of the original Japanese version of DBZ. I get that.
And so before I go any further, was THAT version the first version you saw?
Was it the first version you viewed from start to finish?

I ask because subsequently, the first version we see makes for severely biased opinions, not to mention it heavily influences our standing. I am proof of this as well.
What also plays a big factor is that many of you (I’m sure) were anime fans to begin with thus the respect was already deeply rooted in and for the original product.
Right so far?

I’m posting today to talk about the other side of the coin. The side of the coin that is often times misinterpreted and coincidentally the side of the argument in which I stand.

I stand for fans of the DBZ English Dub and I stand for what I feel is the best version of DBZ.
I know, I know. I’m walking right into the lion’s den.
At least here me out and while at the end you will still surely disagree, I merely ask that you try to understand where we fans are coming from.

For me personally, DBZ is the only, ONLY anime I am interested in.
Not to say I dislike cartoons, because that’s not the case and it’s not to say I don’t like anime either, as the two are clearly different.
I love animation as a whole and could never help what shows piqued my interest, and I’m sure most of you feel the same.

But let’s keep moving…

I have the utmost respect for the original material. Honestly, I do.
I recognize that it was a Japanese show FIRST, while at the same time, I respect the author and I respect all original intentions.
(Which includes the original translation)
However, I feel that FUNimation took this product/story and transformed it into something even greater.
From the music, to the voices, to every aspect of the series, I strongly feel that FUNimation did everything better.
(With the exception of losing 20% of the screen on the orange brick release)

Again, I realize this is NOT the original version. I recognize it was not even the original VISION. Some people will forever make the argument that an original “anything” is always the best but in all honestly, this viewpoint seems rather…flawed.

Just because McDonald’s is the granddaddy of all fast food restaurants, does it mean that McDonald’s has the best tasting burger among the other fast food chains? No, it doesn’t. (Even though McDonald’s IS the best, lol)
Or…just because Pizza Hut came before Papa John’s, does it mean that Pizza Hut’s pizza tastes better? Does it mean that a pizza can never be surpassed?
Well, no. It comes down to a matter of OPINION. Agreed?

I realize that we are LUCKY for DBZ to get the American treatment as I think as a whole, they made a great show even greater and a lot of that stems from the FUNi cast and version. This is the point I am getting at.

For example: In the Japanese version, Goku has always, ALWAYS (imo) sounded like a screechy girl while Sean’s Goku sounds and IS a man. And yes, I am fully aware that a female IS cast in the role for the Japanese version.
Hearing Goku with the Japanese voice though pretty much kills that version dead on arrival. At least for me. Granted, I don’t know Japanese, but I DO know the difference between a man’s voice and that of a woman and I am forever hearing a woman anytime I watch DBZ in Japanese.
Please tell me so of you agree.

So, my first question to those that SUPPORT the Japanese voice acting is this:
Do most of you understand Japanese?

I ask that because people are constantly praising the Japanese voice acting and I am always left wondering: How are you even able to comment on such a thing? (Without being fluent in the language?)
Do you know WHEN they are saying a specific word? Do you know how well it is actually being acted out when most of us don’t know Japanese in the first place?
How can we be critics if we don’t even understand the voices word for word?

Granted, you can TELL when someone is angry. You can tell when a voice is sad. But how can we critique such a thing without this being our native language? Or at the very least being a language we understand?

I guess if I had things my way, I would ask a thousand people who are fluent in both English AND Japanese which version sounds better.
Which version and voices better fit the characters? It would also be helpful is said thousand people are neither Japanese or American to begin with to receive the most non-biased comments possible. That makes sense, right?

Moving on…

My first exposure to DBZ was the classic scene in which Goku goes SSJ3 for the first time. Sucked me right in.
Falconers’ music is pounding in the background and Goku is letting out this scream that completely matched the emotion on the characters face.
But when I turn things around and listen to this same scene in Japanese, I am left wondering: How? How is this better???
Is it because English is MY first language? Well sure, I’m willing to bet that has a LOT to do with it.
On the other hand, I’ve never had a problem reading subtitles while enjoying something in a foreign language.
Am I still biased? Clearly.
We all are in one form or another. After all, that’s just the nature of our species. No real sense in denying that.

I have a feeling we like what was original to US…OR we like what we like because we want to be the best fan possible.
The so-called best fan would of course love nothing more than the original product, right? It would be blasphemy to feel differently.
Is that how some of you feel?

In every aspect, we the fans of the English Dub are just as great of fans. We are just as loyal.
But do we get the same respect, especially from the so-called die-hard fans?
I’m not sure that we do. The English version seems forever frowned upon.

That in itself is surprising to me because I honestly think that DBZ enjoys the success it does DUE to the English Version.
Would the show be NEARLY as popular if it had only been released in Japanese and only in Japan? I honestly doubt it.
Would DBZ still command such a following had an English version never had been made? Especially when we consider all of the video games and movies that have come as a result?

So, I guess what I want to know is, why can’t the English version be better? Or at least, why can’t it be treated with just as much respect? Is it simply because of the translation issues?
And if the English version is so inferior to the Japanese version, which the majority of you seem to back, then why did the company even bother making an English version?

The logical answer is of course: Money.

But beyond a financial argument, what other reasons are there?

This site and its users repeatedly stress the importance of a good, solid translation. I respect that. This always seems to be the core of your argument.
But is it possible that you have brainwashed yourself due to your love of anime? Due to respecting where anime originated from?
Is it possible that you blindly count the Japanese version as “King” simply because it came first?
Is it possible you are being a bit too nit-picky, thus clouding your judgment?

When watching the English version, I had no idea that the Japanese translation was a bit different at times. I was clueless to that fact. But it also did nothing to ruin my experience.
But MAYBE by being clueless to these facts, I was able to appreciate this version on a level few of you are able to experience.
Because your love for the Japanese version is so firmly planted, is it possible you have never watched the English version with an open mind?
Is it possible you will NEVER be able to view it as such?

And sure, it’s just as easy for you to reverse that argument on me because I love the English version like you love the Japanese.
So yeah, I understand the argument can work both ways.

Long story short:

A friend of mine was kind enough to make me a copy of “Yo! Son Goku and his friends return”.
Yeah, it was awesome, and yeah, I watched in all in Japanese. (An English version does not exist, correct?)
I bring this up because while I enjoyed this short film immensely, I knew after my first viewing that I would have preferred to have heard it in English.
In my head, all I kept hearing were the English voices anyway.

Is this basically what happens when you guys watch DBZ in English? Do you constantly want to hear it in Japanese?
Have you been a fan of the Japanese version for so long that the English coming out of a characters mouth just sounds out of place?
Or, is it simply because you want the most accurate translation possible?

And now that Kai is out, will you find yourself finally a fan of the English version since the translation is as accurate as it’s ever been?
Or, will these characters ALWAYS have to speak in Japanese for you to enjoy it?

In the end, what exactly makes the Japanese version better? Why is it more respected?
Beyond the reason of it being the “original”, are there any other reasons?

I like the DBZ English version for several.
For starters, I have no problems with the voice acting. Every voice seems to fit. Yes, even King Kai.
A God he might be but he was certainly not a typical one. I mean, humor is one of the biggest traits of the character and yet none of his importance was lost to me. Just saying.

Another reason why I think the English version is vastly superior is because of the music and I’ll even give a few examples.

Remember the fight between Teen Gohan and Cell, specifically the final kamehameha tug of war?
Listen to Falconer’s version and then listen to the Japanese score.
Is there even a comparison???

Falconers’ music was so intense, so dramatic; you honestly felt it was all coming down to that one moment.
And in essence, what Falconer added was what DBZ was always missing in the first place: More emotion and more HEART.
Now, I’m not saying that the Japanese version has no emotion. That’s insane.
But one cannot undermine what the right music can do for a scene. The right music adds depth, adds MORE emotion where emotion is already running high. It simply makes the finished product BETTER. It draws you in faster than you can yell Kamehameha!

Another good example is when Goku gives up on trying to push the Spirit Bomb (or if you prefer: Genki-dama) into Kid Buu and is ready to give up.
Suddenly, he hears Dende’s voice and hears the wish he made.
Now, listen to the music in that scene. Listen for the change. Listen for when the score changes into Goku’s classic theme.
When that happened, I literally screamed with delight.

The music kicks in, Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan, and there’s Sean’s Goku screaming like there’s no tomorrow.
Something about all of that put together simply FIT. It just felt like THIS is how it was always supposed to be.
It was like all of the pieces of the puzzle were finally put in place.

It was then I wanted to thank Toriyama himself for his brilliant story but at the same time I wanted to rush the FUNimation office to exclaim:
You just took the greatest story in the world and made it a gazillion times better. How is that even possible??? Hats off to you both.

Everything about the English version just feels like THIS is the version everyone should be watching.
THIS was the final transformation. This was DBZ, the way it was meant to be seen.
To hell with a perfect translation if it means losing some of these vital aspects! (I mean, none of the action changed, right? The story is STILL the same story with minor, MINOR changes, at least in my opinion)

It is the ONLY version, (imo) that does justice to the sheer intensity of the series. It is the ONLY version I will ever again watch, period.
(As I have now seen both)

So, in closing I say this:
The Japanese version is like the Super Saiyan version while the English version is like taking it to a whole new level.
In my opinion, the English version went SSJ3 on the Japanese version thus far surpassing the original. Just like the Goku himself surpassing previous limits which seems rather fitting in the end..

…And in the end, that’s the only way to really describe it and there will never, EVER be a better version for me.

[Herms]

Why does every dub fan on Daizex feel the need to carry on as if they were the only dub fan on Daizex, some brave minority of one, when there's actually a pretty decent number of them here?

Anyway, all the points you brought up have been brought up many times already by other dub fans on Daizex, and discussed in depth. So you're only "walking into the lion's den" in the sense that you're rehashing an old debate that most people here been through already and are probably a little tired of.

[Rory]

I'm in a real hurry, so I can't stick around to read all of that massive post, but I'll just answer your first question.
The dub was how I got into the show and for a long time I did enjoy it.
Then I started to watch the original Japanese with subtitles and realised how shit the dub is.

If I get back later tonight I'll see if my answer can be a bit more fleshed out.

The Japanese version is like the Super Saiyan version while the English version is like taking it to a whole new level.

Cool bullshit bro.

[Questrider]

^Respect the opinion at the very least.
Just because YOU think it's bullshit doesn't make it so.

That's like saying a Coke is the same as a Pepsi.

In the end, both versions are 2 VERY different products and I just wanted to give my endorsement.

[Questrider]

Why does every dub fan on Daizex feel the need to carry on as if they were the only dub fan on Daizex, some brave minority of one, when there's actually a pretty decent number of them here?

Anyway, all the points you brought up have been brought up many times already by other dub fans on Daizex, and discussed in depth. So you're only "walking into the lion's den" in the sense that you're rehashing an old debate that most people here been through already and are probably a little tired of.

How is the "other" fan base any different?
I mean, this site is DEDICATED and CATERS to your specific taste, thus I can see why there's no need to write up things like this on your end.
It's already being covered from every angle.

[Rory]

I mean, this site is DEDICATED and CATERS to your specific taste, thus I can see why there's no need to write up things like this on your end.
It's already being covered from every angle.

...So why the hell did you start this thread in the first place?

[jjgp1112]

Even I'm starting to think this is being overdone. Anyway:

Dub
Pros:
-For the most part, good performances by the majority of the cast. Although it took some longer than others, they all eventually really developed into their roles and became perfect for their characters
-It doesn't deviate from the original script nearly as much as some other anime out there, especially at the time when you had 4kids changing entire plot elements and rearranging footage.
-The replacement score was good and fit much better than the Japanese score imo

Cons:
-The early parts of the dub were horrific. Bad scripting, bad voice performances, etc. This is basically the low point in the dub
-There are some name changes and other inconsistencies. Certain conversations are needlessly changed, there's some added dialogue, etc. Also, certain minor plot elements are simplified and glossed over, like character motivations and that shit.
-Some odd casting choices
-Changed the score. Yes, I realize this is contradictory.

JP
Pros:
-Obviously, the original version of the anime. I have no idea what significance this has since the manga came first, but there ya go.
-Didn't deviate from the manga for the most part.
-The score is well composed, at least, and it did fit well during the early parts of the series

Cons:
-Odd casting choices, as they seemed to think that someone's personality affected the actual sound of their voice (IE, Adult Goku sounding like a 12 year old, etc)
-The music in the later parts of the show became boring and extremely repetitive
-They made some odd deviations from the manga, such as Vegeta's reasoning for attacking Cell after killing Trunks

[Questrider]

I mean, this site is DEDICATED and CATERS to your specific taste, thus I can see why there's no need to write up things like this on your end.
It's already being covered from every angle.

...So why the hell did you start this thread in the first place?

Isn't that obvious? Because the English version is NOT really covered. I understand that this is not this site's intention, but I wanted to stick up for the English version that is EVER frowned upon.
There ARE fans out there that DO like the English version better, you know, and I am speaking as one of them and on their behalf.

Is it a crime to be fan of the English Version???

It's like I HAVE to be a Japanese version type of fan or not a fan at all.
English version fans are always wrong, or stupid, or both.
This is how a lot of you feel, right?

Do you want everyone in the world to be just like you or what?
It's called an OPINION.

And well hey, no one is forcing anyone to read OR reply.

[The Tori-bot]

I blindly count the Japanese version as king because, in my opinion, the dub sucks the big one. Now, back to your regularly scheduled interesting discussions.

[linkdude20002001]

I watched the entirety of DBZ dubbed as it aired on TV (except for the episodes I bought on VHS because they weren't on TV yet), and I could tell it was bad. I watched it, enjoying the story and characters, but never truly enjoyed it fully. The only experience I had where I truly enjoyed FUNi's dub of DBZ was when the first two movies aired on Cartoon Network, but they turned out to be done by Geneon (in association with FUNi).

What was so good about those two movies that made me enjoy them so much? At the time, I didn't know why. It was just so much different, so much better. It turns out that by using the original music and original script, and having fitting, well acted voices, they can make a good dub of DBZ.

Now, you say that you think FUNi's dub of DBZ is better than the original... Well that's up to you. It's like saying apples are better than oranges; in the end, it's just your opinion. But even still, that doesn't change the fact that their dub of DBZ is a bad dub. And I mean that it's bad in the scene that they did a poor job creating an English version of DBZ. In fact, they didn't creat an English version of DBZ! Instead, they made their own "reversioning" (as FUNi calls it) of what was once DBZ. You can like FUNi's show called "Dragon Ball Z", that's fine, but people shouldn't get upset whenever someone says it's a different show. I can never understand why people get upset like that. They act like they're being told their preferred version is shit, regardless what what you're actually saying.

[VegettoEX]

It's like I HAVE to be a Japanese version type of fan or not a fan at all.
English version fans are always wrong, or stupid, or both.
This is how a lot of you feel, right?

Whenever I read something like this, I immediately conclude the person is just making things up, possibly to make themselves feel better about themselves -- that they're some persecuted minority fighting the good fight. Herms has already addressed this.

We have a very specific rule against this kind of thing on this forum. It's called "NO MORE PLAYING THE VICTIM".

[jjgp1112]

You can like FUNi's show called "Dragon Ball Z", that's fine, but people shouldn't get upset whenever someone says it's a different show. I can never understand why people get upset like that. They act like they're being told their preferred version is shit, regardless what what you're actually saying.

I'd reckon because it's because it's almost as if they're being told that they're not even fans of Dragon Ball if they like the dub.

Bah, I need to stay out of this...

[Herms]

How is the "other" fan base any different?
I mean, this site is DEDICATED and CATERS to your specific taste, thus I can see why there's no need to write up things like this on your end.
It's already being covered from every angle.

My point is that, contrary to what you seem to think, threads just like this one are constantly made on this forum. The annoying part, for me, is that many of the makers of such threads seem to think they're doing something astonishingly counter-cultural and original, as opposed to making the same old thread for the zillionith time. Though this site's owners are strictly fans of the Japanese version, these forums contain many fans of the Funi dub, who aren't exactly shy about it. Beyond the word filter (which I personally find annoying), the forums as a whole don't really cater to my specific tastes as a fan of the Japanese version. Individual members say what they want.

Anyway, to answer some of your questions:

And so before I go any further, was THAT version the first version you saw?

The Funi dub.

Was it the first version you viewed from start to finish?

No. So far the only version I've technically gone through from start to finish would the manga, both the original Japanese and the Viz translation. I've seen all of DBZ and DBGT in Japanese, but only parts of the Funi Z dub (mostly from the android and Boo arcs), and none of the Funi GT dub. I've seen the later third of the original DB anime in both Japanese and the Funi dub, but nothing before that in any version. I haven't seen anything but brief clips of other dubs.

What also plays a big factor is that many of you (I’m sure) were anime fans to begin with thus the respect was already deeply rooted in and for the original product.
Right so far?

It's a bit hard for me to remember at this point, but I think at the time I got into DB and other anime, I wasn't really an anime fan, just a fan of those shows. Even today, I suppose I consider myself more a fan of certain manga and anime than a fan of manga and anime in general, just as I'd never describe myself as a fan of "books"; it's too vague a statement to be meaningful.

What really made me develop a respect for the original product, I'd say, was beginning to read Viz's more faithful adaptation of the manga, and finding that more to my liking. While I'm similar to Mike in that I do have an urge to seek out the original version of things to a certain extent, if I enjoy certain changes made in a later adaptation, it doesn't bug me too much that said changes weren't part of the original. It's just that with Funi's DBZ dub, I don't like any of the changes they made.

So, my first question to those that SUPPORT the Japanese voice acting is this:
Do most of you understand Japanese?

Yes; I'm able to understand the level of Japanese used throughout DB fairly well.

That in itself is surprising to me because I honestly think that DBZ enjoys the success it does DUE to the English Version.
Would the show be NEARLY as popular if it had only been released in Japanese and only in Japan? I honestly doubt it.
Would DBZ still command such a following had an English version never had been made? Especially when we consider all of the video games and movies that have come as a result?

You have to remember that it's not that there's simply the original Japanese version of DB and Funi's English dub. There have been countless dubs of DB throughout the entire world. Heck, there's been more English dubs alone than you can shake a pointed stick at. How much of DB's worldwide success is attributable to the Funi dub? Probably not much. It was vastly popular in numerous countries worldwide before Funi came alone, after all. I'd also say that Funi would have had at least as much success with DB had it not made the various changes that it did.

[Questrider]

It's like I HAVE to be a Japanese version type of fan or not a fan at all.
English version fans are always wrong, or stupid, or both.
This is how a lot of you feel, right?

Whenever I read something like this, I immediately conclude the person is just making things up, possibly to make themselves feel better about themselves -- that they're some persecuted minority fighting the good fight. Herms has already addressed this.

We have a very specific rule against this kind of thing on this forum. It's called "NO MORE PLAYING THE VICTIM".

Actually, I was just asking a general question. Just simply curious and I have a habit of wanting to understand a given person's point of view.
My intention was never to play the "victim".
If that's how that all came across, my apologies.

I just wanted to give my favorite version the respect I think it deserves.
Was just trying to make a little case for it.
Nothing more, nothing less.

[VegettoEX]

You can like FUNi's show called "Dragon Ball Z", that's fine, but people shouldn't get upset whenever someone says it's a different show. I can never understand why people get upset like that. They act like they're being told their preferred version is shit, regardless what what you're actually saying.

I'd reckon because it's because it's almost as if they're being told that they're not even fans of Dragon Ball if they like the dub.

Bah, I need to stay out of this...

Yes, you *should* stay out of this, because you constantly take those things personally. "It's almost like they're being told..." is not the same thing as "This is what they said."

Should some people have more tact when they explain things? Sure. Absolutely. No doubt about it. Welcome to real life, unfortunately. Do you need to take every factual description as if your great-grandma's corpse is being desecrated? No.

[jjgp1112]

You can like FUNi's show called "Dragon Ball Z", that's fine, but people shouldn't get upset whenever someone says it's a different show. I can never understand why people get upset like that. They act like they're being told their preferred version is shit, regardless what what you're actually saying.

I'd reckon because it's because it's almost as if they're being told that they're not even fans of Dragon Ball if they like the dub.

Bah, I need to stay out of this...

Yes, you *should* stay out of this, because you constantly take those things personally. "It's almost like they're being told..." is not the same thing as "This is what they said."

Should some people have more tact when they explain things? Sure. Absolutely. No doubt about it. Welcome to real life, unfortunately. Do you need to take every factual description as if your great-grandma's corpse is being desecrated? No.

ugh. How exactly is reacting to things negatively ttaking something personally? Of course I know they're not trying to insult my character. Duh.

And just to raise a scenario, how would you fell if someone said that the anime wasn't Dragon Ball and that people who are watching it aren't actually enjoying Dragon Ball?

[Makaioshin]

All you've said was that despite the changes they made you like the Z dub and that is your opinion. Obviously not everyone has to agree with you. It's not like there are people here constantly demeaning the dub.
What is the point of this? You could have just summed it up in once sentence.

I'd reckon because it's because it's almost as if they're being told that they're not even fans of Dragon Ball if they like the dub.

Bah, I need to stay out of this...

Well, this guy does say that it isn't the same as Toriyama's story in his rant. :V
Not saying it is so.

[linkdude20002001]

I'd reckon because it's because it's almost as if they're being told that they're not even fans of Dragon Ball if they like the dub.

Bah, I need to stay out of this...

Well, script wise and character wise, it's just not what Toriyama made them it to be. Voices and music are subjective (Mostly. Some characters he picked himself or wrote with in mind.), but if they change what's being said, or a character's mannerisms, then they're changing it into something else. Why do you think FUNimation says "reversioned by FUNimation" in the credits? It's not Toriyama's Dragon Ball, it's FUNimation's Dragon Ball. Ask Sabat and he'd probably say the same thing.

[Cipher]

I grew up on the dub, and to this day, it's the only version I've seen all the way through (although I'm finally viewing the complete original version through the Season Sets and Dragon Boxes).

That said, I like the Japanese version infinitely better, although I understand why people love Funimation's treatment as well.

In defense of the Funimation version, I think it was exactly what I needed to become hooked as a child. It took itself incredibly seriously, and I was wowed as a kid to find an action cartoon with that amount of serialization and (what I thought at the time were) serious plots. That hooked me. The voices sunk in with me, and it was only years later that I would spot the lackluster qualities of the early voices. I didn't know how far the script deviated from the original. And for what it's worth, there are some seriously catchy bits of the American soundtrack.

Then I took a few years off from the series, and came back into it looking for a bit of self-aware, nostalgic fun.

And let me tell you, the Japanese version is where it's at. I can see resisting Goku and company's voice at first, and it does seem like an odd choice in pretty much any non-Japanese culture. You get used to it, and that's all I can say. But everything else about it is nearly objectively better. The actual caliber of the voice performances is leagues above what we got through Funimation's first attempt. The music, while repetitive and used in too-short bursts (a regular problem in Japanese media) is just as catchy and gives the series the self-aware tone it should have. Funimation's version took itself seriously, and that's why I loved it as a kid. The original version doesn't, and that's what makes it enjoyable as an adult. So for the greater care in production, the more solid, memorable script, and an overall more self-aware tone, the Japanese track is my version of choice.

I'm not some raging Japanophile, by the way. I have studied the language for years now, but I like maybe three anime series total, and I have no real aversion to dubs existing. Kai for example, is a chore for me to watch in Japanese, but the revised English dub has me curious enough to watch. So there you go.

You can like FUNi's show called "Dragon Ball Z", that's fine, but people shouldn't get upset whenever someone says it's a different show. I can never understand why people get upset like that. They act like they're being told their preferred version is shit, regardless what what you're actually saying.

They probably get upset because it's a gross hyperbole, and I almost always see it used to deride the English version. It has a different tone, but it's nowhere near a completely separate experience. When I watch the Japanese version of material I've only seen in the dub, I'm not amazed by this brand new show I'm watching. I'm pleasantly surprised by the slightly better scripted and scored version of a show I've already seen.

Yes, you *should* stay out of this, because you constantly take those things personally. "It's almost like they're being told..." is not the same thing as "This is what they said."

But with every contextual clue, that almost is what they're being told. Maybe I haven't seen enough of this guy's posts, but I sense minimal undue butthurt here.

[MCDaveG]

I dunno, I saw first the French dub
But as a purist, original is original and I got tired to have topics like this each week, I think I already said why I think that original dubs are superior and are the only option for me to watch, so see ya and have a nie discussion))))