Who is Stronger Questions

[rereboy]

Are you trying be funny or a troll? That is filler! In the manga nobody get winded. Period!

Guy gets winded after giving energy to the Genki Dama


Oni seem to be exhausted after contributing for the Genki Dama


(sorry about the quality of the scans)

Hmmm... Trolling indeed... Right? Guess not...

Edit:

Thanks! Although I only see there someone who never experienced this kind of thing get alarmed because his "energy" got sucked. They are definitely not winded.

I see that you already responded.

Well if you can`t admit to something that is clearly in front of you, then this really isn`t a debate at all.

[Senzu_Bean]

... this really isn`t a debate at all.

Definitely it isn't. This is MFG all over again.

[rereboy]

Please don`t try to make us look like the ones to blame for that just because we think that a character of the manga who looks winded/tired is actually winded/tired.

Its ok that you have other interpretations, but when you act like the most obvious and logical interpretation (someone who looks winded is winded) is clearly dead wrong and is impossible, it just comes off as a rotten attitude.

[VegettoEX]

The very next post that contains anything resembling a personal attack, outright dismissal, or any kind of snide remark about a fellow fan will be met with immediate and permanent banning without further warning.

If you can't speak nicely with your peers, you will not have the ability to post on this forum. Period.

[caejones]

Everybody contributed with all of their ki to the Genki Dama. That was Vegeta's plan. Nobody get winded in the manga. Claiming Gohan didn't give his full power cause he wasn't winded when nobody is winded is laughable at least.

Just because, you know, the last time this came up, the "Kid Buu is stronger" side absolutely refused to understand this nuance when several people brought it up.

What is there to understand? You only solidified my point even more. And the sad is you don't even notice.

I know that English isn't your first language, so let me ask: do you understand the difference between "and", "or", and "and/or"?
My point was that previously someone refused to acknowledge the difference, effectively redefining the words so they supported his argument.
The way the wordds are used in actuality, though, doesn't support either side.
So yeah, I suppose I "don't even notice" because I don't see how what you said makes sense. Please explain?

[Questrider]

I admit I read this somewhere else but it DID raise a pretty good point:

Argument: It took the whole planet Earth, some of Other World, New Planet Namek, Supreme Kai and everyone else to beat Kid Buu which is a strong argument to make as I don’t recall Super Buu being stronger than 6 billion people put together. Also, Mystic Gohan could have beaten Super Buu had he not fucked around and I’m pretty sure that Gohan was NOT stronger than the power contained within the Genki-dama which was needed in order to beat Kid Buu, thus Kid Buu>Super Buu.

Hmm?? That's not bad, right?

Think of Kid Buu as the Super Buu WITHOUT restraints, which is exactly what he was.

[rereboy]

I already responded to that on this topic, in the last few pages.

[Herms]

which is a strong argument to make as I don’t recall Super Buu being stronger than 6 billion people put together.

Keep in mind that by the time super Boo comes along to finish off the Earthlings, fat Boo had already wiped out 80% of the Earth's population. So unless DB Earth originally had a population of 30 billion, super Boo didn't kill 6 billion people. I know that Viz's backcover intro for DBZ volume 25 describes Boo as doing such, but that's just their slipup. The Japanese volumes didn't have those backcover intros at all. Well, I guess there's really nothing to prove DB Earth didn't have a population of 30 billion, but it seems pretty clear that Viz just assumed DB Earth had about the same population as real Earth, and forgot all the people Boo had killed prior to that point.

[hleV]

Think of Kid Buu as the Super Buu WITHOUT restraints, which is exactly what he was.

Kid Buu is the original Buu.
Fat Buu is original Buu with restraints.
Super Buu is original Buu with advancements instead of restraints.

[Questrider]

I'm working very HEAVILY on some research and am even going to get out the orange bricks tonight to watch a lot of these scenes again...

Note to the board:
I see a lot of quotes taken from the manga and the anime but before I anyone posts more quotes, let's initiate this rule: (if you guys agree)

Quotes MUST be presented verbatim to avoid ANY confussion since things are easily misinterpreted otherwise. This seems fair, right?

Also, I should have been more specific when creating this topic.
My argument is based on the events of the anime, not the MANGA, as they contradict eachother too much and it just seems weird and illogical to constantly mix and match the two such as: "I'll take a little bit of this, mix it with a little bit of that..." Know what I mean?

EDIT: You said: Kid Buu is the original Buu.
Fat Buu is original Buu with restraints.
Super Buu is original Buu with advancements instead of restraints.

See, I think it's fine to state your opinion but can you back up these opinions with some facts? (or at least some information to support your claim?)
Just saying what you did with no info to support it seems rather vague.

[caejones]

Quotes MUST be presented verbatim to avoid ANY confussion since things are easily misinterpreted otherwise. This seems fair, right?

Very fair, considering that the balance of things in this arc seems to come down to nuance most of the time.

My argument is based on the events of the anime, not the MANGA, as they contradict eachother too much and it just seems weird and illogical to constantly mix and match the two such as: "I'll take a little bit of this, mix it with a little bit of that..." Know what I mean?

Thing is, the anime includes everything from the manga, then adds contradictory material. I mean, the general consensus around here seems to be that Super Buu is stronger in the manga, but Kid Buu is stronger in the anime...

EDIT: You said: Kid Buu is the original Buu.
Fat Buu is original Buu with restraints.
Super Buu is original Buu with advancements instead of restraints.

See, I think it's fine to state your opinion but can you back up these opinions with some facts? (or at least some information to support your claim?)
Just saying what you did with no info to support it seems rather vague.

And here's where that "verbatim" issue comes in... 'cause it was stated that Kid Buu is the original form of Buu, but... I don't know the exact lines. +_+
Super Buu being enhanced, though, qualifies as an interpretation.
While there were statements regarding Fat Buu being restrained by the Dai Kaioshin in some capacity, I neither know the exact quotes off hand nor think they were particularly specific... -_-

I'm wondering if Toriyama wasn't deliberately vague or avoided direct statements on strength issues so as not to screw up the mood or cater to a particular character. But... Meh.

[Questrider]

Thing is, the anime includes everything from the manga, then adds contradictory material. I mean, the general consensus around here seems to be that Super Buu is stronger in the manga, but Kid Buu is stronger in the anime...

Both are still debatable but that answer is good enough for me.

However, doesn't it bother anyone else that there are 2 different answers to the same question?

I'm wondering if Toriyama wasn't deliberately vague or avoided direct statements on strength issues so as not to screw up the mood or cater to a particular character. But... Meh.

This is a great point and so I ask: Is there any interviews posted on this site with Toriyama explaining some of this???
Has he ever been directly asked who is stronger: Kid Buu or Super Buu?

It seems someone would have asked him this at the first possible opportunity.

[Herms]

However, doesn't it bother anyone else that there are 2 different answers to the same question?

Well, there's lots of cases of things being explicitly different in the anime. In the manga, Freeza kills Cargo, while in the anime Dodoria does. In the manga, Goku drinks the Super God Water at Karin Tower, while in the anime he drinks it in the ice maze. In the manga, Piccolo and the other Namekians have four fingers, while in the anime they have five. And so forth and so on.

This is a great point and so I ask: Is there any interviews posted on this site with Toriyama explaining some of this???
Has he ever been directly asked who is stronger: Kid Buu or Super Buu?

As far as I know, he's never been asked this in any published interview. The closest thing I know of is a Q&A session published in Viz's Shonen Jump, where someone asked him what Boo's power level was (answer: 'really amazing', or something generic like that).

[Questrider]

Based on Herms' last post, I request this topic be closed with the following results: (can I do that???)

Strongest in the manga: Super Buu
Strongest in the anime: Kid Buu

We may not agree on all that but I think this is as close as we going to get to any viable conclussion as Herms described PLENTY of differences between the anime and manga thus I see this case as no different.

I think this is really as fair as it's going to get, not to mention the most accurate based on everything we know/and have posted.

Hey Kaboom- Do your thing!

[Zionist]

Just one last thought

Where are the most plot holes in all of DB/Z? The Buu Arc (Starts at Tournament)

[Xyex]

I admit I read this somewhere else but it DID raise a pretty good point:

Argument: It took the whole planet Earth, some of Other World, New Planet Namek, Supreme Kai and everyone else to beat Kid Buu which is a strong argument to make as I don’t recall Super Buu being stronger than 6 billion people put together. Also, Mystic Gohan could have beaten Super Buu had he not fucked around and I’m pretty sure that Gohan was NOT stronger than the power contained within the Genki-dama which was needed in order to beat Kid Buu, thus Kid Buu>Super Buu.

Hmm?? That's not bad, right?

Think of Kid Buu as the Super Buu WITHOUT restraints, which is exactly what he was.

Well, this would be all well and good as reasoning if the Spirit Bomb were designed to be AS strong as Kid Buu. But it wasn't. Something AS strong as Kid Buu would never destroy him. They wanted something MUCH STRONGER than Kid Buu. It's always been my impression from the series that Goku, wanting to make absolute certain that Buu would be destroyed (because, let's face it, the Spirit Bomb has failed twice already and if it fails this time there wont be any second chances) he made sure the attack was well above Kid Buu's power level. Like around 10x stronger than him.

Both are still debatable but that answer is good enough for me.

However, doesn't it bother anyone else that there are 2 different answers to the same question?

That's why 90% of the Dragonball community ignores the contradictions included in the anime. Besides, technically speaking, there aren't two answers. The anime attempts to make Kid Buu stronger with a few statements, but these all directly contradict everything the anime did that matched the manga's power scale presentation, thus turning it into a complete and utter mess. (More so than it already was, which is an impressive feat.)

Let's look at the anime facts.

Fact One: SSJ3 Goku is stated and shown to be stronger than Fat Buu.
Fact Two: SSJ3 Goku is stated and shown to be about as strong as Kid Buu.
Fact Three: SSJ3 Goku is heavily implied to be greatly inferior to Super Buu.
Fact Four: SSJ3 Gotenks is heavily implied to be about as strong as Super Buu.
Fact Five: Ultimate Gohan is stated and shown to be far stronger than Super Buu.
Fact Six: Ultimate Gohan is thusly stated and proven to be far stronger than SSJ3 Goku.
Fact Seven: Kid Buu is stated to be stronger than Super Buu.
Fact Eight: Super Buu 3 is stated to be the strongest Majin ever, and includes the power of Super Buu and Ultimate Gohan.
Fact Nine: SSJ3 Goku is shown to not get his ass killed in .02 seconds vs. Super Buu 3.

Clearly, not all of the facts above can be true. It therefor becomes required to weed out the incorrect elements. If you're a Kid Buu (or Goku fanboy, like Toei), or just think it would be 'cooler' for Kid Buu to be the strongest, you ignore those facts given from the manga, and voila. Kid Buu is not only stronger than Super Buu, but Super Buu 3, and so is SSJ3 Goku! If, however, you want to keep the integrity of the story intact, you ignore the anime only 'facts' (as everyone does for every other saga, this being the only place people really care to try and make them work) and Kid Buu is thusly weaker than Super Buu.

Just one last thought

Where are the most plot holes in all of DB/Z? The Buu Arc (Starts at Tournament)

Yeah. Buu's got a shit-ton of them. But then, that's what happens when the author is running out of ideas and is actually tired of working on the series.

EDIT
Added more facts to better illustrate the issue.

[Dayspring]

Also, do we know if Piccolo Boo is stronger or weaker than Buff Boo?

Well, with the information we're given, we know that Piccolo is weaker than Kaioshin and Kaioshin is weaker than the South Kaioshin, so going by my previously listed power scaling Piccolo Buu would have to be weaker than Buff Buu.

Good point. Did Vegeta and Goku freak out over Buff Boo's strength increase (meaning, was it implied that Buff Boo was loads stronger than Super)?I ask because South Kaioshin's strength was added to Kid's, not Super's.

[Bussani]

I admit I read this somewhere else but it DID raise a pretty good point:

Argument: It took the whole planet Earth, some of Other World, New Planet Namek, Supreme Kai and everyone else to beat Kid Buu which is a strong argument to make as I don’t recall Super Buu being stronger than 6 billion people put together. Also, Mystic Gohan could have beaten Super Buu had he not fucked around and I’m pretty sure that Gohan was NOT stronger than the power contained within the Genki-dama which was needed in order to beat Kid Buu, thus Kid Buu>Super Buu.

Hmm?? That's not bad, right?

Yeah, not bad, although it makes the assumption that Genki-dama works a particular way (i.e. "if person A is stronger than person B and donates genki to a Genki-dama, the Genki-dama can kill person B.") The thing is, it doesn't disprove or explain away all of the other hints, but instead contradicts them. When this one theory comes up against all the other evidence, I'm more inclined to say that this one theory isn't quite right.

I think Xyex makes a good point. The Genki-dama had to be so much more powerful than Kid Buu, or he would have regenerated from a small piece. There's also the possibility that the energy taken by the Genki-dama isn't the same as "battle power". This comes from one of the Super Exciting Guides:

What’s the secret of winning in battle?
When it comes to battle, the most important thing is ki size, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki; could also be translated as "true character"] (note 11). There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe.

Note 11: Genki and yuuki, shouki
The word “energy” [genki; also “health”, “vigor”, etc] is well known, but if you had an illness [byouki], would you not have energy? That’s difficult to answer. There are some people who have a healthy body but no energy, but there are also some people who are full of energy even when ill. What’s more, even with people who have about the same amount of power, there are some who, when attacked by Piccolo Daimao for instance, will stand firm and tough it out, while others will run away trembling in fear. If you think this way, you might understand how different kinds of “ki” are very important in battle. In the world of Chinese kenpo disciplines such as Tai Chi, much importance is placed on the training and control of ki.

This is part of an interview with Toriyama and explains that genki is a part of ki, a component of it, but isn't actually the same as your ki/battle power itself. Just because Gohan is stronger than Kid Buu might not mean that his genki is enough to wipe him out in one shot.

Think of Kid Buu as the Super Buu WITHOUT restraints, which is exactly what he was.

I don't think he was. Super Buu was Kid Buu, having absorbed South Kaioshin and become the stronger Buff Buu, then having absorbed Dai Kaioshin and become the weaker Fat Buu, then expelling his evil, which eats him, and became the more battle-perfect Super Buu. Super Buu seems more like an unrestrained Fat Buu. Piccolo said this about him:

"He's transformed... All because of some idiot human. Now his body is perfectly suited to battle, and his soul is pure rage."

Also, do we know if Piccolo Boo is stronger or weaker than Buff Boo?

Well, with the information we're given, we know that Piccolo is weaker than Kaioshin and Kaioshin is weaker than the South Kaioshin, so going by my previously listed power scaling Piccolo Buu would have to be weaker than Buff Buu.

Good point. Did Vegeta and Goku freak out over Buff Boo's strength increase (meaning, was it implied that Buff Boo was loads stronger than Super)?I ask because South Kaioshin's strength was added to Kid's, not Super's.

They look nervous, sweat and say, "Um...Vegeta... Isn't his ki...getting bigger...?!"

[Xyex]

Think of Kid Buu as the Super Buu WITHOUT restraints, which is exactly what he was.

I don't think he was. Super Buu was Kid Buu, having absorbed South Kaioshin and become the stronger Buff Buu, then having absorbed Dai Kaioshin and become the weaker Fat Buu, then expelling his evil, which eats him, and became the more battle-perfect Super Buu. Super Buu seems more like an unrestrained Fat Buu. Piccolo said this about him:

"He's transformed... All because of some idiot human. Now his body is perfectly suited to battle, and his soul is pure rage."

Yeah. Kid Buu is just Buu without restraints. But the important thing to note here is that these restraints are mental ones. Fat Buu was restrained by his playful mentality. Super Buu was restrained by his calculating mentality. Kid Buu just lives to blow shit up. Fat Buu is a happy-go-lucky Chihuahua that just thinks it's amusing to bite people. Kid Buu's a Doberman that wants to rip your throat out. Super Buu is a Lion with the mind of a human that just wants to test its own strength.

[Kid Buu]

Kid Buu because Kid Buu can actually attack Mr. Satan

But seriously, people have been divided on this topic forever. From my own personal experience, people tend to say Super Buu is the stronger version. I'll admit I skimmed through some of the posts in this thread, but I gotta ask one thing. Has Toriyama ever made any statement regarding Buu Saga strengths at all?