Strong Base Form Proof?

askani son · Post by **askani son** » Sun May 08, 2005 1:16 pm

I wonder if anyone has ever quoted themselves in the same thread before

omae no kaasan · Post by **omae no kaasan** » Sun May 08, 2005 1:17 pm

There has been no right or wrong answer

Well, since Cell Game power levels are indeed made up I'd have to say there's no basis for any discussion and yes, it would be a wrong answer.

Consider this, Toriyama was not considering each minute detail of what exactly should be more powerful and what shouldn't, let alone the concept of base levels. While I myself participated in many...many, many, many, many, MANY MANY MANY MANY conversations on this topic in the day I finally realized, after power levels were dropped Toriyama was never thinking, "Goku is more powerful because he's only using the base level and therefore he can essentially train this power to another higher but he'll lose ki faster if he uses it in spurts etc."

Why? BECAUSE IT'S A PAIN IN THE ASS. He never stated as such but I would bet my Daiz. that he dropped power levels because of the stupidly high levels they were reaching and the tedium of controlling such a monster that he created.

The physical power we see expressed in latter DBZ has everything to do with making each week exciting, and little to do with consistancyof minute details. Man, if Toriyama had to think about gradation in SS power levels IN ADDITION to making a friggin' great story he would probably have been insititutionalized.

I'm not really ANTI-DBZ DISCUSSION because yeah I did it and it's kinda fun. But just realize, there is no right answer because Toriyama probably wasn't even considering 1/10.000 of the theories flying around these days. It all falls under fan-fiction.

Sun_Wukong · Post by **Sun_Wukong** » Sun May 08, 2005 2:21 pm

Why debate powerlevels? Honestly, who gives a fuck how strong the character couldve been? Toriyama couldve made the character as powerful as he wanted. But he chose to keep it some what reasonable. Think about it, if the main character was always uber powerful, there wouldnt be any room for the other characters to grow.

Oh wait, that was the concept behind GT wasnt it?

Trunks Master Swordsman03 · Post by **Trunks Master Swordsman03** » Sun May 08, 2005 2:32 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Nothing was stated about a Super Saiyan Ki feeling. I don't feel like searching for the line right now, I'm sure someone else would be happy to help.

Volume 12, Page 90:

Krillin: What is this chi?!

Gohan: I'it's Dad's!!! that's the same chi dad had that time.

Krillin you mean....

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Sun May 08, 2005 3:11 pm

Yeah, and that somehow implies a Super Saiyan Ki feeling...?

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun May 08, 2005 3:25 pm

It implies same level to me, not same type. It wasn't until later, around the time of Cell's appearance, that they started being able to tell who's energy was who's, and it didn't matter what level they were in so apparently it feels the same in base as SSJ, which shoots down that whole idea of yours.

And I think he dropped Power Levels because he found them restrictive. He liked being inovative with his battles. PLs prevented him from doing that. I certainly don't find them a pain in the ass with my Fanfics, but the opposite.

Still, the fact stands. After the Trunks Saga Toriyama-sama ignored the idea of PLs. He just made people however strong he felt like.

Trunks Master Swordsman03 · Post by **Trunks Master Swordsman03** » Sun May 08, 2005 5:05 pm

I take that as a reference to a whole different type of ki. We all know that a Saiyan is not pure at Super Saiyan (perhaps the all pure Goku is as says Movie 7, but I'm not gonna get into that). So there would be a change in ki type, it would sense differently. I believe that Gohan was reffering to type of chi & not power, it sounds more like that to me.

oponok · Post by **oponok** » Sun May 08, 2005 5:30 pm

Arguments consisting mainly of "this is what such-and-such sounds like to me" and "well, because I have this theory that so-and-so is so strong at such-and-such point, I can use it as evidence in this debate" normally lead nowhere, except that a cute little lock icon finds it way next to the topic link.

Really, this why I sometimes look so fondly at American comics... no one really cares if pre-Secret Wars Cyclops can beat DareDevil or Archangel could slap around the Hulk. It's the narrative and characters that are discussed, no endless "what-if" debates that end up annoying everyone involved with assorted bits of incoherent or inconsistant logic... well... at least from my experience.

I don't read American comics anymore, so if I'm wrong, then... well... I've at least got my untaintable love of fine film. No one ever asks me if I think Stanley Kubrick could take down the brothers Quay.

Aurek · Post by **Aurek** » Sun May 08, 2005 5:41 pm

Really, this why I sometimes look so fondly at American comics... no one really cares if pre-Secret Wars Cyclops can beat DareDevil or Archangel could slap around the Hulk. It's the narrative and characters that are discussed, no endless "what-if" debates that end up annoying everyone involved with assorted bits of incoherent or inconsistant logic... well... at least from my experience.

Unfortunatly you are incorrect.

http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6271029

There was a site dedicated to who would beat who crap but I cant remimber the url.

Bejiita · Post by **Bejiita** » Sun May 08, 2005 5:57 pm

Never mind just power levels, the style in which the characters fight is what mostly matters, Goten and Trunks fight different, so their fight goes on a bit, even though Trunks can bang him.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun May 08, 2005 6:22 pm

Aurek wrote:
Really, this why I sometimes look so fondly at American comics... no one really cares if pre-Secret Wars Cyclops can beat DareDevil or Archangel could slap around the Hulk. It's the narrative and characters that are discussed, no endless "what-if" debates that end up annoying everyone involved with assorted bits of incoherent or inconsistant logic... well... at least from my experience.
Unfortunatly you are incorrect.

http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6271029

There was a site dedicated to who would beat who crap but I cant remimber the url.

The CBUB would be what you're talking about. ^^ Very fun little site, hehe.

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Sun May 08, 2005 6:40 pm

Just look at the UncannyXMen.Net forums. The "Who can kill Iceman" arguements are painful. =/

Aurek · Post by **Aurek** » Sun May 08, 2005 6:50 pm

The CBUB would be what you're talking about. ^^ Very fun little site, hehe.

Yeah thats the one Xyex. I can see how it would be interesting if the participants could keep clear heads but it never works that way. As I said on another forum theose discussions as they are usually unwinnable, completly and uterly pointless and always end up becoming an outlet for fanboys to scream at eachother and take everything far too seriously.

Pedro The Hutt · Post by **Pedro The Hutt** » Mon May 09, 2005 3:21 pm

It's a manga. XD Nothing is set in stone unless the mangaka states it. And since those precious "power levels" haven't been stated since Freeza boasted about his, it's up to the reader/viewer to decide who's stronger. XD Although the best way to find out who's stronger is who ends up KO on the floor. =D If that doesn't occur, it's eternally up for personal interpretation, and thus debate.

Trunks Master Swordsman03 · Post by **Trunks Master Swordsman03** » Mon May 09, 2005 4:19 pm

I wasn't attamepting to make accurate PL's. I think that's what some of you thought, but I am not. I am just trying to state my feelings on why I think that the Saiyan Base Forms are powerful.

Pedro The Hutt · Post by **Pedro The Hutt** » Mon May 09, 2005 4:49 pm

Well, of course they are powerful, that's why they were Freeza's workhorses to begin with. That's why Goku managed to be a Budokai finalist on his first attempt. >.>;; Being strong is in their blood. XD

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Mon May 09, 2005 4:55 pm

I never pay attention to power levels either. They tend to make my head spin and I "zone out" after a while.@_@ My way of comparing? Ooooooh look! He just blew a hole in that mountain! Oooooh, but he just blew up the whole mountain! Simple and unscientific yes, but it works for me.^^

Trunks Master Swordsman03 · Post by **Trunks Master Swordsman03** » Mon May 09, 2005 5:49 pm

Um, like I mean if Base Form Goku could take Frieza & stuff like that, I don't mean strong in general.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon May 09, 2005 6:58 pm

Trunks Master Swordsman03 wrote:Um, like I mean if Base Form Goku could take Freeza & stuff like that, I don't mean strong in general.

still wrong. Goku was only strong enough to surpass his kaioken abilities. Granted that's a huge undertaking, but note how Freeza raped him three ways from Sunday before he went SSJ. Then SSJ levels became Dragonball. So your point is STILL moot.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Mon May 09, 2005 8:05 pm

He means later, like in the Buu Saga. There's the whole Base Saiyans>Pui Pui>Kaiôshin>Freeza thing.

Kanzenshuu

Strong Base Form Proof?

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