Question about Krillin

[Dayspring]

That's a 4.16x increase. Assuming it's like that for every 10 months of intense training, and assuming the "close to four years" for the three years of training was 40 months, that means Krillin went from "over 10,000" to over 2,994,837. That's ignoring the fact that the stronger you are, the harder you can train (meaning the increase should be larger than 4.16x for each 10 months).

Of course, just being able to endure harder training probably isn't enough. Kuririn made great strides training at Kami's Palace under Kami himself and Popo because they're good teachers, because the lookout itself has conditions you need to adapt to, and because he had a lot of room for improvement. It was probably the best place to train on Earth until the Room of Spirit and Time was revealed. Once Kuririn mastered the training there, the increases in strength probably declined rather than progressing linearly. To make matters worse, Kuririn came back from Namek much stronger than that. Finding a sufficient training method on Earth by that point would be a challenge, I think.

In short, I think going from a low level to a medium level under Earth conditions is easier than going from a medium level to a high level under Earth conditions.

I see what you mean, but my problem with that is Goku trained under regular Earth conditions and got stronger, too, as did Tenshinhan. Sure, Goku trained with Piccolo and Gohan, but his non-SSJ form already dwarfed them, so how could they have been useful? And sure, Tenshinhan trained with Kaio and under 10g, but Krillin had his potential released by Saichoru, so even if Tenshinhan got much stronger, his holding back semi-perfect Cell shows it's plausible that Krillin could do similar with Freeza.

As for your comment about Tenshinhan being there for days, they were actually with Kaio for 260 days (Yamcha for 130). Still much less than Goku, but they're being stronger just means it didn't take as long to travel Snakeway, so they pretty much got the same amount of time with Kaio as he did.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I don't think Krillin could've defeated Freeza's true form by the end of Z.

However, I see Krillin being close to Freeza's 2nd form after the training for the Androids. As much as Gero miscalculated, he still believed the addition of Krillin's energy (Along with the other three, of course) would help in taking on Vegeta. I'd like to believe Krillin was at least close to a million for Gero to even believe such thing.

[Dayspring]

I don't think Krillin could've defeated Freeza's true form by the end of Z.

However, I see Krillin being close to Freeza's 2nd form after the training for the Androids. As much as Gero miscalculated, he still believed the addition of Krillin's energy (Along with the other three, of course) would help in taking on Vegeta. I'd like to believe Krillin was at least close to a million for Gero to even believe such thing.

That's true. Sure, Piccolo was among the four, but none of them were at their limits.

[KakaR0T]

Yeah, that's the filter. It also does that for Frieza(changes to Freeza) and Hercule(changes to Mr. Satan). Those are the only three I know of.

They also change "K o r i n" to Karin

[rereboy]

As for your comment about Tenshinhan being there for days, they were actually with Kaio for 260 days (Yamcha for 130). Still much less than Goku, but they're being stronger just means it didn't take as long to travel Snakeway, so they pretty much got the same amount of time with Kaio as he did.

Actually, Goku was only with Kaio for 158 days. He spent a lot of time just on Snakeway.

[KingDuce9]

Krillin would have to be the forth stongest earthling in dbz. The strongest is 17 then 18 then Tenshinhan then Krillin. And even if Krillin has a higher power level then Tenshinhan, Tenshinhan showed more balls then Krillin.

[Bussani]

I see what you mean, but my problem with that is Goku trained under regular Earth conditions and got stronger, too, as did Tenshinhan. Sure, Goku trained with Piccolo and Gohan, but his non-SSJ form already dwarfed them, so how could they have been useful? And sure, Tenshinhan trained with Kaio and under 10g, but Krillin had his potential released by Saichoru, so even if Tenshinhan got much stronger, his holding back semi-perfect Cell shows it's plausible that Krillin could do similar with Freeza.

Oh yeah, I still think it's possible to improve by training on Earth. I just think the benefits decrease, and you have to start getting clever. It's filler, but Piccolo splitting into two and fighting himself is a pretty inventive method. Plus, do we really know how much Goku and Tenshinhan improved when preparing for the Androids?

As for your comment about Tenshinhan being there for days, they were actually with Kaio for 260 days (Yamcha for 130). Still much less than Goku, but they're being stronger just means it didn't take as long to travel Snakeway, so they pretty much got the same amount of time with Kaio as he did.

What I said was it was logical that Kuririn pulled ahead for a while in the Namek arc. He got all that power pulled out of him just a few days after Tenshinhan arrived at Kaio's, so Tenshinhan wouldn't have caught up until later.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

It's hard to tell.

The best piece of info we can cite regarding the humans growth in power is Gero's calculation. His sensors have him believe the source of power is Goku, but eventually realize that it isn't. He claimed he factored in significant increases for Goku or along those lines, so you'd think Yamcha would be around what his data projected Goku to be--if not better; whatever that's supposed to be.

Tien, well, Gero thought the addition of his energy would allow him to get closer to Vegeta's power, so whatever he was reading from him must've been pretty high. How much is a different story. We don't know how Gero measured power with his sensors, but believing a bunch of guys standing around suppressed have potentially enormous energy indicates that they can't be too weak.

I know most will look at it as "Lol, Gero can't calculate worth a damn" or whatever, but I don't think it should all be excluded.

As for Goku: You have Tien being astonished by his power to the point where he is just now realizing that was how powerful Goku was as a Super Saiyan. He says this right after he transforms, and it seems odd considering he sensed the same Super Saiyan Goku three yrs before. I just think his power increased a good amount, so it likely fooled Tien. Sorta like how Piccolo admits (In the first half of his dialogue) Base Gotenks "seems different" due to increasing his power by a good bit.

We know his overall power was about the same as Vegeta's, who trained under 300 times gravity and "endured a training from hell", so with that, Vegeta appears to be much better than Goku and Trunks from three yrs before, and was even shown to be better than Trunks when the Androids arrived, too.

So there's no great way to assess how much stronger Tien and Goku had gotten during the training, but little things can be cited to show they improved a good amount.

[Bussani]

The best piece of info we can cite regarding the humans growth in power is Gero's calculation. His sensors have him believe the source of power is Goku, but eventually realize that it isn't. He claimed he factored in significant increases for Goku or along those lines, so you'd think Yamcha would be around what his data projected Goku to be--if not better; whatever that's supposed to be.

But if you think about it, the last time Gero saw Goku was during his fight with Vegeta. He predicted how strong Goku might get based on his previous increases, but that means Goku could have potentially been anywhere within a certain range. To potentially be mistaken for Goku, Yamcha only needed to be somewhere between Saiyan-saga-Goku and whatever their upper estimate was. That's pretty vague.

Tenshinhan, well, Gero thought the addition of his energy would allow him to get closer to Vegeta's power, so whatever he was reading from him must've been pretty high. How much is a different story. We don't know how Gero measured power with his sensors, but believing a bunch of guys standing around suppressed have potentially enormous energy indicates that they can't be too weak.

I know most will look at it as "Lol, Gero can't calculate worth a damn" or whatever, but I don't think it should all be excluded.

Yeah, those are good points. Of course, he'd be adding Tenshinhan and whoever else's power to his own to try to reach his goal.

So there's no great way to assess how much stronger Tenshinhan and Goku had gotten during the training, but little things can be cited to show they improved a good amount.

I'm sure they increased a decent amount. I mean, it's still 3 years of training, literally for their lives. But compared to the (relative to the time) large increases they get from whole new types of training (like training under Roshi for the first time, or training under Karin for the first time, or training under Kami for the same time, etc), I'm not sure the increase is as dramatic. That's what I was saying before, anyway.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

But if you think about it, the last time Gero saw Goku was during his fight with Vegeta. He predicted how strong Goku might get based on his previous increases, but that means Goku could have potentially been anywhere within a certain range. To potentially be mistaken for Goku, Yamcha only needed to be somewhere between Saiyan-saga-Goku and whatever their upper estimate was. That's pretty vague.

True, but I think the fact that he even goes on to mention the possibility of his sensors experiencing a "malfunction", as well as "exceeding human parameters", this could imply that Yamcha is likely closer to being at the highest estimated, if not surpassing it.

And by factoring in his best increases, you'd think he would take his increase from Kaio's and apply it to his over 8,000 Battle Power as time goes by. From that point, it was about four yrs in total, right?

I'm sure they increased a decent amount. I mean, it's still 3 years of training, literally for their lives. But compared to the (relative to the time) large increases they get from whole new types of training (like training under Roshi for the first time, or training under Karin for the first time, or training under Kami for the same time, etc), I'm not sure the increase is as dramatic. That's what I was saying before, anyway.

Well, Piccolo seems to be the only exception to this during the Android saga, at the least. His increase seems to be his overall best increase from training--which isn't counting his unbelievable Nail assimilation increase. But training with a Super Saiyan will do that, of course

[Kid Buu]

Did Gero know that Kaio-Ken only works in short bursts? Otherwise, he may have assumed KKx4 Goku (Power Level 32,000) was his PL back then. If that's true, then Yamcha's PL can be 32,000 plus 4 years of training.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Good question. Not sure if he knows everything about Kaio-Ken. In the Anime, #19 seems to compare Super Saiyan to Kaio-Ken to an extent--questioning the ability and wondering why it's different from Kaio-Ken. He says along the lines of: "This technique is different from the Kaio-Ken", as if it's simply a power-up like Super Saiyan, and Gero mentions how the technique is "strange and surpasses their calculated limits", so the Anime places more focus on the Kaio-Ken than the Manga does. When considering that, they seem to know Kaio-Ken raises the power significantly, so most likely they thought it raised it and just kept it there instead of factoring in the burst aspect.

If he monitored it closely, he would know it's a burst technique. In all likelihood, I could see him taking Goku's highest level of power from Kaio-Ken X4 and implementing that level within his data. It would be foolish not to consider it.

Based on how powerful the "weaker" Androids ended up, I'm sure he considered just about everything after seeing Goku's battle with Vegeta.

[Dayspring]

The best piece of info we can cite regarding the humans growth in power is Gero's calculation. His sensors have him believe the source of power is Goku, but eventually realize that it isn't. He claimed he factored in significant increases for Goku or along those lines, so you'd think Yamcha would be around what his data projected Goku to be--if not better; whatever that's supposed to be.

But if you think about it, the last time Gero saw Goku was during his fight with Vegeta. He predicted how strong Goku might get based on his previous increases, but that means Goku could have potentially been anywhere within a certain range. To potentially be mistaken for Goku, Yamcha only needed to be somewhere between Saiyan-saga-Goku and whatever their upper estimate was. That's pretty vague.

You're ignoring the fact that he estimated Goku specifically, whom he believes to be the strongest of the group. In other words, yes, the range is vague, but he exclusively guessed Goku (not, "Goku or Vegeta, perhaps? Maybe Piccolo?", etc). That means Yamcha's resting BP is higher than whatever Gero estimated to be the second strongest person's maximum. EX:

2nd Strongest Person = Vegeta = Between Y and Goku, where Y = 18,000 + X and where X = the amount of power gained from 4 years, 6 months, 9 days of training. If it's possible for Goku to find a way to increase his BP fourfold (meaning kaioken x4), then it's also possible Vegeta might stumble upon that same method, so 4Y = 4 x (18,000 + X) = 72,000 + 4X
Unknown Fighter = High enough so that the thought of rounding down to 4Y never occurs to them, so it must be Goku. Turns out to be Yamcha.

Still a big range, but it lends much weight to the idea that both Tenshinhan and Krillin greatly surpassed 72,000 by now, since Yamcha was always the weakest of the three. Plus, that was his BP at rest.

[Piccolo Daimao]

We all know how Krillin always seemed to be the lowest powered of all the Z-fighters. Just for the sake of simplicity, let's take GT out of this question. What I wonder is if even at the end of Z, was Krillin strong enough to beat final form Freeza. I would assume he would have at least been able to defeat Freeza's first and second forms. We didn't really get a sense on how Krillin measured up to other fighter's after the Freeza saga, so I wonder just how strong he was.

It is hard to measure up Kuririn's battle power after the Freeza Arc since we're given little to no information about his power, but I would hazard a guess at Kuririn being somewhere between first form Freeza and second form Freeza's level of power. I don't think he would be anywhere below 500,000, because I find it hard to believe that as the series progressed and the antagonists' level of power rose, he'd still be ranking a good deal below Freeza's first form. But still, it's anyone's game.

[Ringworm128]

I remember reading somewhere that his Cell games power level was about the same as SSJ Gokus Freeza saga power level.

[Goku100xKamehameha]

Edit: Did this site just changet my spelling of T I E N to Tenshinhan?
I think it just did. That's pretty wild.

Yeah, that's the filter. It also does that for Frieza(changes to Freeza) and Hercule(changes to Mr. Satan). Those are the only three I know of.

It's also changed Gokou to Goku.

[caejones]

I remember reading somewhere that his Cell games power level was about the same as SSJ Gokus Freeza saga power level.

Completely unsubstantiated. And... hard to believe without some solid evidence in the series.

I think a lot of people get the impression that, since Goku, Vegeta and Gohan always somehow stay in the neighborhood of the next uberpowerful opponent, everyone that still shows up in a fighting role has to develop just as dramatically, without breaking the pre-established balance of power.

Which, well, is completely unfounded in the series.
The Saiyan near-death powerup alone leaves the humans in the dust. Factor in Kaioken and SSJ, and that giant gap is almost insermountable. Granted, Dragonball is all about overcoming that kind of thing... but nothing in the series suggests it ever happens.

The humans kept up with the same kind of training that Goku endured up to King Kai. Without the gravity training and the near-death powerups that Goku and Vegeta used, though, that shouldn't be enough to get them to the 100,000 level, let alone the millions.

If we want to argue that the humans got their potential unlocked by a Namekian (even though Saichoro was dead when they came back), and that King Kai's training taught them how to make their earth training doubly effective... I still find it outlandish to think that could have gotten them anywhere near a million at any point during the series. Big, big maybe on Tenshinhan, by Buu, but that's a best-case scenario.

Krillin at 530,000, with three years of his typical training? I doubt it.

Let's play math.
Goku's max with the kamehameha against Raditz was just under 1000.
It was roughly 32000 against Vegeta.
So his abilities increased 32 fold in one year.
Give four years and say it's 32x per year.
That's 32,000×32^4 = 33554432000
Is that how strong Yamcha was according to Gero? Is that how strong #19 and #20 were?
Sure, there are ways to get prettier numbers. But a growth from max to max makes the most sense, right?
So... Gero's reaction tells us little other than Yamcha is probably stronger than 5,000 (That's Goku's typical resting BP after his resurrection).

So I think ... umm... I don't know what I just said. But it's relevant somehow, yes.

[MR.Mark]

I can't see any of the humans coming anywhere close to reaching a million battle power, that's just ridiculous to me.

[Savage68]

Edit: Did this site just changet my spelling of T I E N to Tenshinhan?
I think it just did. That's pretty wild.

Yeah, that's the filter. It also does that for Frieza(changes to Freeza) and Hercule(changes to Mr. Satan). Those are the only three I know of.

It's also changed Gokou to Goku.

And Pikkon to Paikuhan.

[Senzu_Bean]

There is quite a bit of evidence to suggest the Earthlings aren't that far outclassed by the base Saiyans, at least not more than they usually were, after those three years of training:

- Dr. Gero (or was it #19?) mistook Yamcha for Goku. As we know Dr. Gero calculated Goku, and everybody, increases in those years but only when Goku turned Super Saiyan Dr. Gero admitted his power exceeded those of his calculations. What this does tell us? Goku's base power was within Dr. Gero's calculations and thus the increase Goku had in Namek was everything but abnormal. This ties up perfectly with Krillin assumption, that near death power-ups is the reason why Goku have always been one step ahead of the Earthlings.

- Tenshinhan, and to a less extent Krillin, is astonished how the Super Saiyans and Piccolo far outclassed him but in no instance comment how far outclassed he is by the Saiyans, if he is supposed to be 100,000 and Goku 5,000,000. Adding to it Krillin comments how it sucks not being a Super Saiyan and Tenshinhan, three years before, admits how Goku is now indeed superior to him but only after him achieved Super Saiyan. What these do tell us? The power base Saiyans attain isn't out of realm for the Earthlings to attain, contrary to Super Saiyan power.

- "I didn't let Chaotzu come. To be honest, he isn't strong enough." Tenshinhan informs Goku why Chaotzu isn't among them. Going by this sentence at least Tenshinhan has to be at a level of power that he considers strong enough to help and 100,000 isn't helpful in this situation. Looking at the fight against Freeza someone less than 100,000 is helpful against an half million opponent but useless against someone over 1,000,000. Considering everybody knew the Artificial Humans are supposed stronger than Freeza, going into the battle with a level of 100,000 claiming himself useful is ridiculous.

- Goku and Piccolo considered Krillin, Tenshinhan, etc. useful against the Artificial Humans. If the Earthlings are defenseless against the Artificial Humans Goku would advise them to retreat just like he did to Krillin when facing Babidi, Dabura, etc.

- Last but not least Tenshinhan hold freaking Cell with Shin Kikoho, when this same move (according to the Daizenshuu the Shin Kikoho is equal to regular Kikoho, except it continuously fires the kiai-type Kihoho) didn't even fazed Nappa and only wrecked his armour.

As for my personal opinion the fight in movie 9 between Trunks & Tenshinhan is actually a decent measurement of Tenshinhan power in that period of time. Although I would only make Trunks turn Super Saiyan cause of Shin Kikoho not because of Tenshinhan powering-up.