A name change for Mr. Satan in the Broadcast?

[TonyTheTiger]

Yeah, just saw that. I guess where I'd challenge the example is the fact that the Silmarillion is an actual work written and published as a piece within the series. I'm certainly not saying sequels, prequels, and side stories don't have any factual relevance.

Maybe the issue is that Toriyama is the sole writer so its easier to take his word as gospel under all circumstances. I think my point is clearer if you look at Superman. There are certain facts we know about Superman. They're long standing facts that outlived even Superman's creators. Imagine if somebody unearthed an old interview with Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster where they said very plainly that Superman's full name is Kal-El-Nabisco (or, more likely, Kal-L-Nabisco) but Kryptonians commonly drop the third part in regular conversation. Would that then automatically become canon Superman? I'm not sure it should.

[linkdude20002001]

What about the example I gave you about L's real name? It's not mentioned in the series, so it doesn't count?

[TonyTheTiger]

I don't know. Where is it mentioned? I actually don't know enough about that particular issue to comment.

[linkdude20002001]

It's from a supplemental guidebook called Death Note 13: How to Read that was released after the final volume of the series was out.

[TonyTheTiger]

I don't know. Maybe. These are all maybes, of course. I know absolutely nothing about Death Note. I'm certainly not going to give an unequivocal no to the question. All I've been saying is that the author's word alone in an interview doesn't necessarily have to automatically become gospel.

[linkdude20002001]

Well there's not really much to know. They're both unnamed characters who are referred to by an alias in the series proper, but have had their name relieved later on by the author.

[TonyTheTiger]

I'm just curious as to what circumstances the names were revealed. Are we talking like a sourcebook acting like a series encyclopedia? That's probably different than an interview answer.

I think maybe my issue is less with his name being Mark as it is with Mr. Satan being a stage name. If it were "Mr. Mark Satan" then nothing really gets changed. But because it's now a stage name then everybody calling him by it under any and all circumstances ends up making lots of scenes stranger than they were originally when it was just his name. I know he's supposed to be buffoonish and is easily the kind of person who'd demand everybody call him by his pseudonym, but later on in the series there are moments that I end up chuckling at when I think of it as just a stage name. It's admittedly minor but I did notice it.

I'm not even saying it's a bad thing. He's Mr. Satan. I like when his scenes are funny.

[MR.Mark]

Screw the author, I say we call Mr. Satan Tony from now on, in honor of this debate.

I think maybe my issue is less with his name being Mark as it is with Mr. Satan being a stage name. If it were "Mr. Mark Satan" then nothing really gets changed.

I don't think Videl was ever referred to as Videl Satan, so I don't get you. His name being Mark doesn't change a thing in the story, at all. In fact Mr. Satan being a stage name makes perfect sense for the character.

[TonyTheTiger]

I never said it doesn't make sense. As you can see, I like the idea. The guy Mark who calls himself Mr. Satan and makes everybody around him call him that all the time is a great character trait. This is less about the change and more about whether the information has to be accepted as canon with no exception. See my Superman example.

[MR.Mark]

Ok, then just what does it changed about the character? He's a gag-character who lied his way to the top, Mark fits him perfectly. It's so him to wanna downplay a name like Mark and want people to call him Mr. Satan, because of how "bad-ass" it sounds.

[linkdude20002001]

I'm just curious as to what circumstances the names were revealed. Are we talking like a sourcebook acting like a series encyclopedia? That's probably different than an interview answer.

I think maybe my issue is less with his name being Mark as it is with Mr. Satan being a stage name. If it were "Mr. Mark Satan" then nothing really gets changed. But because it's now a stage name then everybody calling him by it under any and all circumstances ends up making lots of scenes stranger than they were originally when it was just his name. I know he's supposed to be buffoonish and is easily the kind of person who'd demand everybody call him by his pseudonym, but later on in the series there are moments that I end up chuckling at when I think of it as just a stage name. It's admittedly minor but I did notice it.

I'm not even saying it's a bad thing. He's Mr. Satan. I like when his scenes are funny.

It was more of an encyclopedia type of thing, but the interview with Toriyama was in an guidebook.

The thing about Hercule Satan, or Mark Satan, is that you're affecting Videl's name too by giving her a surname. It's most important that, no matter what, you don't add a surname to a character in a fictional world where surnames aren't used anymore.

[TonyTheTiger]

Ok, then just what does it changed about the character? He's a gag-character who lied his way to the top, Mark fits him perfectly. It's so him to wanna downplay a name like Mark and want people to call him Mr. Satan, because of how "bad-ass" it sounds.

It doesn't really change anything about him personally other than making him even more ridiculous. What it changes, admittedly very slightly, are scenes where characters who at the time should be familiar with him, like Gohan or Goku, call him by the name. The scenes are not funny. But hearing them call him Mr. Satan ends up adding an extra layer of absurdity on top. Like, not only does he want to be known as Mr. Satan, absolutely everybody in the world, including his own family, calls him that in regular conversation. I realize it's very meta.

The thing about Hercule Satan, or Mark Satan, is that you're affecting Videl's name too by giving her a surname. It's most important that, no matter what, you don't add a surname to a character in a fictional world where surnames aren't used anymore.

That's fair enough. Though it begs the question why "Son" exists at all and the characters routinely use it, sometimes exclusively.

And does Daimaou count?

[linkdude20002001]

Well, it's probably because Son Gohan lived alone in the middle of nowhere, or just felt the need to keep it. Who knows when exactly the dropping of the surname took place.

[MR.Mark]

Maybe he's embarrassed of his real name? Maybe Goku called him Satan because they were at the tournament, so it was "out of respect" of his title? We didn't really See Mark at the Son home at the end of the manga so to me the name does not effect a thing.

[Gaffer Tape]

The way I see it, there are two kinds of name "reveals." You have something like the new guidebook that reveals Mr. Satan's real name is Mark. Then you have an interview where Toriyama says that if he had named Bulma's mother, it probably would have been Panchii. I see the former as having credence while the latter is just an off-the-cuff remark.

That said, I don't think the name Mark has any place within the actual manga or show. While a fun factoid for trivia buffs and a nice new piece of canon, it doesn't need to be shoehorned in where it doesn't belong, into a time when it didn't exist.

[MR.Mark]

That said, I don't think the name Mark has any place within the actual manga or show. While a fun factoid for trivia buffs and a nice new piece of canon, it doesn't need to be shoehorned in where it doesn't belong, into a time when it didn't exist.

Why though, or more specifically, what's wrong with it being used in place of a name made up by Funimation?

[Rocketman]

It's short a syllable?

[MR.Mark]

It's short a syllable?

Call em "Champion Mark" then.

[linkdude20002001]

It's short a syllable?

What sense does that make? They dropped Son, didn't they? They also dropped a syllable from Tenshinhan, yeah? So, your reasoning is inert. Lol.

[Gaffer Tape]

That said, I don't think the name Mark has any place within the actual manga or show. While a fun factoid for trivia buffs and a nice new piece of canon, it doesn't need to be shoehorned in where it doesn't belong, into a time when it didn't exist.

Why though, or more specifically, what's wrong with it being used in place of a name made up by Funimation?

Well, my reasoning is in the other part of what you quoted. Now bolded for your convenience.

But basically, it would be almost the same thing as referring to Goku a Saiya-jin pre-Raditz. Sure, Mark has absolutely no narrative repurcussions like Goku's ancestry, but the fact remains that it does not belong. It simply has no place there, and it almost certainly hadn't entered the author's head. I consider it canon, but it's also a retcon.

I do agree that it certainly has more validity than the H-word, which is just made-up garbage. But, and I hate myself for suddenly having this realization, the H-word is actually a better name than Mark. Mark is funny. It's a joke. It's very clever, and I love it for that. But taken on its own, it just doesn't work for everyday use. Mr. Satan is a bold, brash, almost laughably-absurd name. It fits the character to a T. It encapsulates who he is. Mark works as a joke both because of the pun but also because it's absurdly common in comparison to Mr. Satan. So while it leaves a certain amount of irony that someone so showboating, so full of himself, so theatrical would have such a mundane name... it doesn't make any sense for him to actually be called that in the story. And as much as I hate the H-word, it actually does fit slightly better than Mark in this context. I honestly cannot see FUNimation referring to him as Mark (assuming they are even aware of this bit of obscure trivia in the first place) over what they already call him. Maybe, just maybe, they will throw it in just once for shits and giggles (although, as explained my first paragraph, I wouldn't agree with it), but I certainly don't see them using it as a replacement.