A name change for Mr. Satan in the Broadcast?

[batistabus]

But you're lying to the audience... I'd rather not have any more people think his name is Hercule.

I'm not saying it's a good choice, it just serves its purpose. Mr. Devil or Mr. Demon would work or on a less effective level Mr. Savage or even Mr. Awesome. Obviously Mr. Satan is the best choice but I just don't see it happening on the broadcast version.

[MR.Mark]

I've explained why (the H-word) still serves as a joke and why Mark eliminates that.

But see, that joke shouldn't exist unless you acknowledge Mark to begin with. That's what I've been debating with other people about. Yes, "the title" joke is funny and all, but it's never brought up in the series itself. So Mark being upset over people calling him that, as funny as that would be, simple won't happen because Mark didn't exists at the time. It doesn't contradict the manga to call him Mark, but there were not any jokes about his title in the original manga ethier.

That's why I'm all for Him being called Mark over Hercule, it's Toriyama's name for him, and it changes NOTHING to the story as it was presented in the manga. Unless you'd want Funi throw in lines of Mark telling people not to call him that. THAT would be changing the story, and I'd be against it. So in conclusion that's why I'm for Mark being used, it's a fun name only die-hards would appreciate, over the generic and pointless censor-name Hercule.

[B]

"Mark" is wrong to use in the dub of Dragon Ball Z Kai because it wasn't used in the original. Plain and simple.

"Hercule" and "Mr. Savage" are wrong to use in the dub of Dragon Ball Z Kai because they weren't used in the original. Plain and simple.

See what I did there?

And to whomever it was who brought up the Kakarotto/Goku comparison, that's a completely different scenario. Mr. Satan received a new name in the Z dub out of censorship(i.e. a licensing company/network choice), while Goku's Saiyan name is a plot point brought up to reveal his ancestry(i.e. an event in the storyline). Z Kai's dub is monumental because we're slowly ridding ourselves of all this old bullcrap; in actuality, we're extremely lucky Toriyama decided to give Satan another name, and that there is another option besides the whims of a licensing company.

[MR.Mark]

in actuality, we're extremely lucky Toriyama decided to give Satan another name, and that there is another option besides the whims of a licensing company.

Exactly.

Funi writers, read my posts, here my howl, make my wish come truuuuuuue!

MARK!!!!

[Gaffer Tape]

RE: B

No. It's really not a completely different scenario at all. I was not referring to the H-word when I made that comparison. The H-word is made-up FUNi bullcrap. I was referring to Mark. Both Mark and Kakorrotto are names for characters that were made up later by an author who never planned anything in advance. Putting either in where they don't belong is deceptive in that regard.

[MR.Mark]

So Funi putting in The H-word instead of Mark would not be deceptive?

B is right either way, "Mark" is not a plot point, Goku's ancestry was. I could turn around and accuse Toriyama of being "deceptive" of going through over half his manga and just deciding that ,hey, Goku's real name is Kakarott! How deceptive of him, coming up with something later!

[batistabus]

I get what you're saying. It isn't assumed that Mr. Satan isn't his real name. And I get everything else you're saying. But that's not Toriyama's intended use of Mark, if you're going to use that argument.

Censorship isn't ever good, but it's going to happen. And there's no way of not changing what Toriyama wanted if censorship is going to happen.

[Gaffer Tape]

RE: MR.Mark

Did I say that? Have I not constantly said that the H-word is made-up FUNi bullcrap? As I said in my very first post on the subject, I agree that Mark is canonically his name, while the H-word is just FUNimation's (well, predating FUNimation) censorship. I think he should just be called Mr. Satan and be done with it. And I wouldn't even quibble over the pronounciation. But I am torn. Mark on its own simply does not fit, either as a stand-alone name for the character nor as a shoehorned retcon into the story proper, but it has a more legitimate reason to exist than the H-word. On the other hand, if given a choice between the two, I begrudgingly admit that the H-word works better as a name than Mark (and remember that I'm no fan of the dub and watch the Japanese version exclusively), but it's made-up licensee nonsense and has no legitimate reason to exist. But I use that argument to say that I do not at all believe that FUNimation is going to use Mark over the H-word.

But in the end, it doesn't matter because he'll be Mr. Satan (as he should be) in the home release.

EDIT: And in regards to Goku/Kakarrotto once again, I'm not saying anything about plot points. Plot points are completely irrelevant to what I'm saying. And I've stated as much several times. All I'm saying is there no point, logic, or honesty in putting in a name into a point in the narrative where it simply did not exist.

[MR.Mark]

that's not Toriyama's intended use of Mark, if you're going to use that argument.

And Hercule is not Toriyama's intended use of ANYTHING, which is why I'm for the use of Mark.

[batistabus]

that's not Toriyama's intended use of Mark, if you're going to use that argument.

And (the H-word) is not Toriyama's intended use of ANYTHING, which is why I'm for the use of Mark.

Since Mr. Satan has a real name, its Toriyama's intention to give him a stage name. Which Hercule would be.

[MR.Mark]

that's not Toriyama's intended use of Mark, if you're going to use that argument.

And (the H-word) is not Toriyama's intended use of ANYTHING, which is why I'm for the use of Mark.

Since Mr. Satan has a real name, its Toriyama's intention to give him a stage name. Which (the H-word) would be.

But I already explained why the stage name argument doesn't matter since it's never brought up in the manga.

[MR.Mark]

All I'm saying is there no point, logic, or honesty in putting in a name into a point in the narrative where it simply did not exist.

H-word did not exsist at that point in the narrative.

So like I've said time and time again, why deal with a bullshit Funi made up name? If we have to deal with censorship, why can't fans get a little bonus just for us and have Mark be used as an alternative?

[batistabus]

But I already explained why the stage name argument doesn't matter since it's never brought up in the manga.

Mark was never brought up in the manga.

This isn't going anywhere. I'm not convincing you, you're not convincing me. I understand everything you're saying and I see your point. I'd like an acknowledgment of Mark but not for him to be constantly called that. I think that's the best we can come to.

[MR.Mark]

Mark was never brought up in the manga.

But it doesn't change the story like the title-joke does.

In the end, we'll see what Funi does, but I'd rather not be reminded of there past dub with THAT name.

[batistabus]

Mark was never brought up in the manga.

But it doesn't change the story like the title-joke does.

In the end, we'll see what Funi does, but I'd rather not be reminded of there past dub with THAT name.

His name being Satan isn't a plot point. It's just ironic.

And I agree. I'd rather not see Hercule, but I think that's the most realistic thing to expect.

[MR.Mark]

His name being Satan isn't a plot point. It's just ironic.

The name Mark isn't a plot point, but him acknowledging his title would be.

And I agree. I'd rather not see (the H-word).

Amen.

[B]

I think he should just be called Mr. Satan and be done with it. And I wouldn't even quibble over the pronounciation. But I am torn. Mark on its own simply does not fit, either as a stand-alone name for the character nor as a shoehorned retcon into the story proper, but it has a more legitimate reason to exist than the H-word. On the other hand, if given a choice between the two, I begrudgingly admit that the H-word works better as a name than Mark (and remember that I'm no fan of the dub and watch the Japanese version exclusively), but it's made-up licensee nonsense and has no legitimate reason to exist.

Why do you feel this way? What trumps something the author came up with? Must admit, I'm puzzled.

[Gaffer Tape]

I didn't say that the H-word trumps Mark. In fact, I said the exact opposite. I did, however, say that the H-word fit better in my opinion as a standalone name than Mark. And I have written at least two posts in this thread explaining why I think Mark just doesn't work as a replacement name. But I'll add another one, and that's to ape what batistabus said. Mark was never created as a replacement name for Mr. Satan. It's just a throwaway pun that works on two levels. As a standalone name, it barely works at all.

But to answer your question in a more general sense: What trumps something the author came up with? Answer: The author. I don't mind retconning (at least not if it's done well). Goku was never originally an alien. He was Sun Wukong. But he was rewritten to be an alien. Okay, so he's an alien now, but only from volume 17-ish on. Freeza is revealed to be the real reason that Vegeta and Nappa want the dragonballs... but only from volume 21 on. Before that, it was just because they wanted to fight forever. I accept the replacement story as having overwritten the original version, but I detest and loathe the practice of going back into earlier works and inserting later ideas into it. They're generally done for 2 reasons: for fan-wanking material or to soothe the author's ego (ie. George "See? I really did have it all planned out from the beginning" Lucas). For those people interested in the behind the scenes, evolution of the storytelling process it obscures the real facts, and it's also usually done so ham-handedly as well so as to call attention to itself.

Incidentally, I don't accept the Kanzenban revised ending either on the same basis.

So in conclusion, if Toriyama starts up a brand new Dragon Ball series and starts referring to the character as Mark... or, hell, if he goes so far as to retcon the name Mr. Satan out of existence and act like he'd never had that name... fine. I'll accept that... just as long as he doesn't go back to the original manga and change all of the old instances of Mr. Satan to Mark.

[MR.Mark]

I didn't say that the H-word trumps Mark. In fact, I said the exact opposite. I did, however, say that the H-word fit better in my opinion as a standalone name than Mark.

Why?

[Gaffer Tape]

And I have written at least two posts in this thread explaining why I think Mark just doesn't work as a replacement name.

Within the past twelve hours, I might add.