Regarding Goku as a SSJ3

[Cableguy15]

I was wondering what some opinions were about whether he ever truly displayed his full power as a SSJ3? I ask this, of course, because of how ambiguous he was with his lines when he told Vegeta that if he just powered up for a minute, he could wipe out Kid Buu. I had for some reason always believed he was referring to charging up some kind of attack, but recently I was pointed in the direction of this particular Viz scan: http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j52/M ... t=buu4.jpg which seems to point to Goku talking about his actual fighting power, not some sort of special attack. But for some reason I just can't get it out of my head that something contradicts this. So what are your opinions? Do you think Goku was preparing some kind of attack? Or was he truly unable to harness SSJ3's fighting power?

[jackjack]

Vegeta: [r] Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! [l] With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Buu with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!
Goku: [top] Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but… [bottom] I haven’t gotten the chance.
Vegeta: Eh?
Goku: If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.
Goku: [r] Da…damn it…!! It’s already one minute, but…[l] No…not yet!! I still can’t wipe out Buu with this much…!!
Goku: [r] ………..Da...Damn it……..!! [l] …..I haven’t gathered all the ki!! What’s going on? [bottom] He…he’ll be killed…..!!!
Goku: [r] I…I know..! I know, but…It’s strange… [b-r] I gathered my ki close to full power, but… [b-l] …The ki which I al…already gathered has begun falling off…!

[Bussani]

Hmm...so you're talking about two different types of "full power"? Full power with your body, and full power with your final attack. I think it's more or less impossible to give a definitive answer in this case, and I'm not sure if the Viz translation leans one way or the other. I can say that I got the impression that Goku wasn't fighting as hard as he could...but one could argue that that's due to not being able to gather ki for bigger special attacks. Here's the whole conversation (by Viz):

Goku: "Arrrgghhh...! His chi never goes down a bit! He keeps comin' back no matter what I do!"
Vegeta: "Kakarrot..."
Goku: "V-Vegeta...! You wanna switch already?! Gimme a minute!"
Vegeta: "...Heh... Quit lying. You never planned to switch. You knew...that I'd just get killed."
Goku: "N-No way! I never..."
Vegeta: "Don't try to make me feel better. You're right. Boo is stronger than I imagined. And so, Kakarrot...are you. Don't mind me. Finish him off! Build up your chi with Super Saiyan 3, and you should be able to obliterate him!"
Goku: "Well...I've been tryin' to, but... I haven't had the chance!"
Vegeta: "Eh?"
Goku: "I'd have to rev up for a whole minute to get enough power!"
Vegeta: "A minute?!"
Goku: "The potara coulda done it. Maybe I tried to act too cool... But I thought this would be better!"
Vegeta: "You're not...holding back for me?"
Goku: "He keeps draggin' this out! The little punk's havin' fun!"

I have to say that I, personally, got the first impression that Goku hadn't been using his full power during the fight and that Vegeta suspected it. Lines like, "Boo is stronger than I imagined. And so, Kakarrot...are you. Don't mind me." And, "You're not...holding back for me?" They make it seem like...well...like Vegeta thought Goku wasn't fighting all out for his sake, to which Goku tells him that he's been trying to, but Buu hasn't been giving him the chance. But again, you'd then have to ask yourself if firing massive beams that use more power than just using your fists is part of "fighting all out" or not; Vegeta could have been referring to the fact that Goku wasn't putting everything he had into the Kamehameha he used. I think it's enough to conclude that we never saw SSJ3 Goku's full potential, at least.

Also, as jackjack pointed out, Goku later says that he got close to "full power", but then started losing ki. Still depends on what you take "full power" to mean, I guess, but to me it further implies that he wasn't at full power before.

[Savage68]

Goku was going to charge his ki to it's limits for a Kamehameha, similar to how Piccolo charged his ki to it's limits for a Makankosappo. The longer you charge your power, the stronger your attack will be. Goku began his battle with Kid Buu by using a full-power Kamehameha, but it wasn't 'charged-up', in any sense of the word. Goku was using his full-power against Kid Buu, and Kid Buu was using his full-power against Goku. They were evenly matched.

[jackjack]

Also, as jackjack pointed out, Goku later says that he got close to "full power", but then started losing ki. Still depends on what you take "full power" to mean, I guess, but to me it further implies that he wasn't at full power before.

krillin treats a ki blast as his full power here:
http://i29.tinypic.com/1g3jhy.jpg

[Cableguy15]

Also, as jackjack pointed out, Goku later says that he got close to "full power", but then started losing ki. Still depends on what you take "full power" to mean, I guess, but to me it further implies that he wasn't at full power before.

krillin treats a ki blast as his full power here:
http://i29.tinypic.com/1g3jhy.jpg

Good point. Another example is when Gohan fires a blast at Freeza's third form. He yells, "Full power!!!".

I don't know... it still seems very out in the open to me.

[Herms]

krillin treats a ki blast as his full power here:
http://i29.tinypic.com/1g3jhy.jpg

In Japanese he says "I did that at full power" (furu-pawaa de yatta). Which is how I'd interpret the Viz line anyway ("I used my full power" in the sense of "I used my full power when firing that blast").

[jackjack]

I don't know... it still seems very out in the open to me.

But why would Goku fight Boo at anything less than full power, especially when he states "I'll have to go all out right out of the gate"?

In Japanese he says "I did that at full power"

That makes more sense to me. See, you just can't totally trust anything other than the original.

[Haseowolf]

I know it's just a game and doesn't really work, but my technique might apply to actual Dragon Ball rules.

When playing, say, Budokai Tenkaichi 3, and I wanna unleash Goku's full power with Super Saiya-jin 3, I rev up in a lower form. Since Super Saiya-jin 3 takes longer to charge ki, I either power up in base or in Super Saiya-jin 1 or, keeping me quite capable in a fight, but able to charge my ki fast enough. Then, once I've maxed out, I transform to Super Saiya-jin 3 and either use his ultimate or let loose a volley of melee attacks like no tomorrow.

I mean, his power is drained quickly when in Super Saiya-jin 3. What if he used his completely mastered Super Saiya-jin form and charged his ki as high as it could go, then transform, and go all out? Would that work at all?

[Bussani]

But why would Goku fight Boo at anything less than full power, especially when he states "I'll have to go all out right out of the gate"?

It depends on whether you think Goku's punches and speed would have gone up after gathering his "full power" or whether that ki he was gathering was only good for a special attack. I'd probably say the latter, but with the added note that this also counts as part of fighting to your fullest. I mean, Vegeta thought Goku was holding back for his sake.

[Dayspring]

I think it's a matter of SSJ3's ki consumption just throwing his overall ki manipulation out of what. For example, if one ever used all their ki, like with the kikoho, a person would die. So when they say they've focused all their power, they're really referring to how much they can focus in one spot/technique without risking their life.

So let's say the body has an emergency reserve of 100 ki points. In SSJ3, Goku has 100,000 ki points and loses 40 ki points for every 5 seconds he maintains the form. Focusing all his power means he's geared to fire a 100,000 ki point blast, but now he's only got his body's emergency reserves to maintain the form, so once those reserves drop below 40 points, he falls out of SSJ3. No longer being in SSJ3 means that 100,000 points can no longer be used.

It still occurs with SSJ and SSJ2, but on a significantly smaller scale. For example, 1 and 5 ki points. Being so small, he would be able to use his focused energy long before his reserves drop too low to maintain the form.

Think of it as a budget: he didn't account for the expense of SSJ3 when he transfered all his power. While dead, this would never be a problem, because the emergency reserves never lower, meaning he didn't have to account for how SSJ3 drains him.

[Senzu_Bean]

Everytime we see Goku in Super Saiyan 3 he is at full-power. It isn't like he can decrease or increase the power output in that form like he does in normal or Super Saiyan. In the moment he goes SSJ3 his power increases 400x, stationary. He can't decrease or increase it, unless he is beat into a pulp.

Thus Goku was fighting the best he could against the original Buu and he wanted a minute to gather ki to its limits, in a form of an attack like he did against Raditz.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Goku: [r] Da…damn it…!! It’s already one minute, but…[l] No…not yet!! I still can’t wipe out Buu with this much…!!

^This seems to indicate Goku was charging-up his Chi for a powered-up attack. Pretty sure he knew he couldn't wipe out Kid Boo with anything other than Chi-attacks.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I disagree with that.

Of course he can manipulate his power output at Super Saiyan 3, as the form multiplies his current base power by x400. If his maximum power is 40,000,000 but he is walking around in a suppressed state at 10,000,000, and he then transforms at that level. then that is what is multiplied. I'm not saying it's easy for him to do so while in SS3, but he can easily determine his power output before hand. He can probably always lower his ki level easily, as the power drain helps with that, but trying to raise his ki to maximum if he started out below maximum would be like swimming against the current. That being said, in a life or death battle for the entire universe, who would do that? (Well, Goku still might...) Goku was obviously at max power vs. Kid Buu, but it is irrelevant whether or not he was at max power for his fight with Fat Buu, as he wasn't intending to kill him anyway, it was a stall tactic.

[Senzu_Bean]

So you're you saying Goku can maintain his Super Saiyan 3 form weaker than his Super Saiyan , am I correct?

[SonEric84]

Where is it stated that SSJ3 is a 400x multiplier?

[Savage68]

It's a common belief that Goku's battle power was increased by 50x on Namek when he became a Super Saiyan, and the Super Exciting Guide claims that SSJ2 multiplies that by 2x, and SSJ3 multiplies that power by x4. Why people honestly believe that strength operates as never-ending multipliers (that depend on base forms) in DB though, I have no idea.

[Senzu_Bean]

I like your way of thinking but I believe that isn't what the guides say. Super Saiyan is 50x times the normal, not the multiplier Goku received in Namek. And SSJ2 is 2x that and SSJ3 4x that.

[Savage68]

I wouldn't have any problem going with the 50x for SSJ, and the 4x for SSJ3, but it's the SSJ2 multiplier that gets me. Their power is only supposed to be multiplied by 2x? That just seems way too minimal; I mean, even a signature ki blast tends to multiply the user's power by more than that.

[Herms]

Where is it stated that SSJ3 is a 400x multiplier?

The Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume says that ordinary Super Saiyan increases the person's regular battle power by x50, while SSj2 increases strength by x2, and SSj3 increases strength by x4. So going by that, presumably SSj3 would make the person 400 (50x2x4) times as strong as their regular form. The book itself doesn't flat-out say this though, and since it describes regular SSj as multiplying "battle power" and SSj2 and SSj3 as multiplying "strength", some people think that it's not quite so simple. Personally I think that they described SSj2/3 as multiplying "strength" either for no real reason, or because "battle power" technically went out after the Freeza arc and so wouldn't be applicable to SSj2/3.