How high do you think BPs eventually got?

[Dayspring]

Sorry if this belongs in GD instead of the Questions forum, but I was wondering how high you all felt the BPs eventually got. Sometimes you'll see in discussions that billions are being treated as way too high to be realistic. Other times, you'll see trillions being suggested as plausible. While it's obviously implossible to know for sure how high they get, personally I think we can figure out how low is an impossibility. Here's what I've calculated as being drastically too low:

Just The Manga: Waaaaaaaay Over 280,000,000
Goku's base BP against Freeza is well over 1,000,000, on account of how he now drastically surpasses second form Freeza, who is flat-out stated to be over 1,000,000 himself. Since Kaioken x20 is equal to 20x Goku's base and at most equal to Freeza's half-strength, it stands to reason that SSJ Goku is well over 40,000,000.

Since we see that the androids are stronger than SSJ Vegeta, who in turn is stated to have surpassed SSJ Goku, it establishes that #17, #18, #16 and Imperfect Cell all have BPs that greatly surpass 40,000,000 as well. Since Imperfect Cell adds #17 and #18's power to his own, Perfect Cell must be at least 3x that number, getting us well over 120,000,000.

Come the Boo saga, we have numerous people who greatly exceed Cell's strength. While we can't judge by how much, we can calculate that Piccolo now greatly exceeds 40,000,000 as well, since he was earlier stated to equal #17, and that Gotenks Boo and Gohan Boo are well over 280,000,000, since Boo was greater than Cell, absorbed someone greater than Cell, and absorbed Piccolo (120 mil + 120 mil + 40 mil). Thus, using just info taken from the manga, I believe we have sufficient evidence to show that it's impossible for BPs to be anywhere near as low 280,000,000.

The Manga and SEG: Waaaaaay Over 25,050,000,000
Taking the SSJ multiplyers and adding to what we know base Goku's BP to be, we can confirm that SSJ2 Goku's BP is nowhere near as low as 100,000,000 (or, "Waaay over 1,000,000" x 50 x2). Since base Gotenks survived against Fat Boo while SSJ2 Majin Vegeta had to self-destruct or die, it's safe to assume that base Gotenks is stronger than him. Meanwhile, SSJ2 Majin Vegeta was equal to SSJ2 Goku, so we know both were also well over 100,000,000. From there, SSJ3 Gotenks would have a BP well over 20,000,000,000 (or, 100 mil x 50 x 4).

Super Boo is stronger than SSJ Gotenks, so "way over 5,000,000,000" (or, 100 mil x 50). Meanwhile Piccolo has to be over 50,000,000 because he has by now greatly surpassed SSJ Goku from Goku fought Freeza. Since Super Boo absorbed SSJ3 Gotenks and Piccolo, we know that BP's got as high as an unknown number significantly higher than the 25,050,000,000.

The Manga and Daizenshuu: Waaaaaay Over 1,050,000,000
The daizenshuu confirm that SSJ Goku was at 150,000,000 when he fought Freeza. Thus we get "Kamicollo" as being well over 150,000,000, Perfect Cell as being over 450,000,000, and Gotenks/Gohan Boo as being over 1,050,000,000.

The Manga, Daizenshuu and SEG: Waaaaaay Over 75,150,000,000
Taking the SSJ2 and SSJ3 multiplyers of the SEG and combining them with the daizenshuu BP for SSJ tells us that SSJ2 Goku can't be anywhere near as low as 300,000,000. This means that base Gotenks is over that as well, while SSJ Gotenks and Super Boo would therefore be way over 15,000,000,000 (300 mil x 50), and SSJ3 Gotenks at 60,000,000,000 (15 bil x 4). Piccolo would be over 150,000,000. From this, we get that Gotenks Boo can't be anywhere near as low as 75,150,000,000.


From all this, it makes sense to me for BPs to be at least in the hundreds of billions by the end of the series. Trillions no longer seems unlikely anymore. What are your thoughts?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

In the trillions.

At one point when I was arguing for 300,000 for healed Goku, I couldn't fathom Super Saiyan 3 having a Battle Power over 70,000,000

[Herms]

At one point when I was arguing for 300,000 for healed Goku, I couldn't fathom Super Saiyan 3 having a Battle Power over 70,000,000

I remember the first BP chart I ever read, way back when I was first getting into the series and didn't even know who half the characters listed even were, had 100% full power Freeza as 2 million, and Super Vegetto as a little over 100 million.

[JulieYBM]

Just look at what Vegeta did to Kewie with just six thousand more points than him. I don't think the numbers need to grow too terribly high for the difference in power to be apparent. My latest post-Namek numbers have Boohan and base Vegetto at 65-66 billion, Ultimate Gohan at forty billion, and Super Saiyan 3 Gokû at 3.04 billion for comparison (and I did use the SEG multipliers for SSj2 and SSj3). The Cell arc stuff was a pain without multipliers for SSjG2 and SSjG3. >_<

[jackjack]

Super Saiyan 3 Gokû at 3.04 billion

That's about where my Super Vegeta (USSJ) is at, lol.

[Cableguy15]

Back when I did lists, my last one had Vegetto easily going into the quadrillions because I decided to follow what the Super Exciting Guide said about Potara fusion multiplying powers together. I may have taken the statement a bit too literally though.

[Dayspring]

I always flip on whether or not I consider SSJ to be a multiplyer at all. There's just so much supporting evidence against the idea. Meanwhile, I always liked the idea of SSJ3 being a x10 multiplyer, on account of x10 is the same as Oozaru.

I remember back in the day, I used x1.5 and x1.75 for the USSJ levels.

[Kaboom]

I spent a good year or so on MFG fine-tuning my Battle Power skills, and this is how things generally work out, what with my rather conservative, "only as strong as they need to be" outlook.

The powers at the Androids arc start out in the 200-300 million range up to and during the fight with the Androids. Then things escalate until they're over 1 billion, pushing or barely breaching 2 billion, during the Cell Games, particularly with the onset of Super Saiyan 2.

Things in the Boo arc get even more crazy with another transformation, and things like Fusions (FYI, I don't take the 'A x B' thing from the SEG literally) and Absorptions. But the only ones who ever surpass 10 billion are Gotenks/Gohan-Boo and Super Vegetto.

GT as it is is incalculable. For GTR, however, those aforementioned folks at the very top might get some company with the coming of SSj4.

[Rocketman]

Infinity.


But if you don't include Vegetto, I doubt anybody ever hit one billion. The gigantic leaps of power during the Namek arc were entirely due to the near-death powerup, and that vanished after Super Saiyan.

[Kaboom]

But if you don't include Vegetto, I doubt anybody ever hit one billion. The gigantic leaps of power during the Namek arc were entirely due to the near-death powerup, and that vanished after Super Saiyan.

I'd agree with you, except for some things in the Cell arc that don't work well unless there's big jumps. Like Vegeta pissing himself in shock at "about half" of Goku's Super Saiyan power. Goku's base x25 is greater than Vegeta's base x whatever boost SSj Grade 2 grants.

As far as I figure, that accelerated period of power increase is the one big benefit of training in a mastered Super Saiyan state, but eventually things level back out (eventually Goku figured he and Gohan weren't making any worthwhile progress anymore). After that, training increases slowed down again, and power came from new transformations and Fusion and sitting on your butt for a day and stuff like that.

[Rocketman]

I'd agree with you, except for some things in the Cell arc that don't work well unless there's big jumps. Like Vegeta pissing himself in shock at "about half" of Goku's Super Saiyan power. Goku's base x25 is greater than Vegeta's base x whatever boost SSj Grade 2 grants.

Well, I also don't buy the x50 for Super Saiyan. It's a transformation based entirely on fury, giving it a flat number like the tightly controlled Kaioken is a mistake.

[Herms]

Personally, I don’t think battle powers get any higher than 150,000,000. I think that after that, they just start going back down again. Through training, the characters learn to squeeze their ki down smaller and smaller, which creates a sort of pressure that makes them stronger. So if you have 150 million units of ki and squeeze it down into the space normally held by 75 million units of ki, this creates twice as much power as you'd get if you just left your ki as-is. Something like that, anyway. At any rate, based on that idea, I’ve constructed the following chart.

SSj Goku: 150,000,000
Mecha Freeza: 120,000,000 (he powered up so much that he came right back down to where he started)
SSj Trunks: 60,000,000
SSj Vegeta: 30,000,000
No.18: 3,000,000
No.17: 1,000,000
Piccolo (merged with God): 1,000,000
Cell (1st form, powered-up): 530,000
No.16: 530,000
Cell (2nd form): 42,000
Super Vegeta: 18,000

Full Power SSj Goku (when visiting Karin): 8,000
Full Power SSj Goku: 4,000
Perfect Cell: 3,500
Perfect Cell (full power): 1,500
Super Perfect Cell: 924
SSj Gohan: 2,800
SSj2 Gohan: 710

SSj2 Goku: 416
Majin Vegeta: 408
Majin Boo: 260

Boo (evil): 220
SSj3 Gotenks: 180
Ultimate Gohan: 120
Boo (Gotenks-absorbed): 100
Boo (Gohan-absorbed): 10
Super Vegetto: 0

[Rocketman]

Super Vegetto: x/0

[verto]

Wall of brain-hurt

But... characters are always saying that they feel a big ki (don't they?), not a "really concentrated small ki".


... Or am I just remembering wrong and/or FUNi-izing this?

[Kaboom]

Abso-freakin'-lutely BRILLIANT, Herms. Have I seen those numbers somewhere before?

[Bussani]

Wall of brain-hurt

But... characters are always saying that they feel a big ki (don't they?), not a "really concentrated small ki".

They do say that they sense a "big" ki, but Herms is saying that concentrating your power could make it "bigger". For instance, Goku's battle power reading was only about 400, but it grew to over 1,000 when he focused it into a Kamehameha.

[Xyex]

Abso-freakin'-lutely BRILLIANT, Herms. Have I seen those numbers somewhere before?

He inverted the powers from the Daizenshuu, counting them back down the same way they went up. XD

As for me, I've got a full out list I developed over the last several years. Highlights include:

SSJ Goku (on Namek): 100,000,000
100% Freeza: 95,000,000

SSJ Goku (Android Saga): 150,000,000
SSJ Vegeta (Android Saga): 155,000,000

Perfect Cell (Buff): 1,000,000,000
SSJ2 Gohan (Full Power): 2,760,000,000

Kaioshin: 525,000,000
SSJ3 Goku: 5,100,000,000
SSJ3 Gotenks: 10,350,000,000
Ultimate Gohan: 16,000,000,000
SSJ Vegetto: 59,000,000,000
Kid Buu: 6,000,000,000

I don't think the hundred billions were reached until SSJ4 Gogeta, definitely nothing in the trillions.

[hleV]

SSj Goku: 150,000,000
Mecha Freeza: 120,000,000 (he powered up so much that he came right back down to where he started)
SSj Trunks: 60,000,000
SSj Vegeta: 30,000,000
No.18: 3,000,000
No.17: 1,000,000
Piccolo (merged with God): 1,000,000
Cell (1st form, powered-up): 530,000
No.16: 530,000
Cell (2nd form): 42,000
Super Vegeta: 18,000

Full Power SSj Goku (when visiting Karin): 8,000
Full Power SSj Goku: 4,000
Perfect Cell: 3,500
Perfect Cell (full power): 1,500
Super Perfect Cell: 924
SSj Gohan: 2,800
SSj2 Gohan: 710

SSj2 Goku: 416
Majin Vegeta: 408
Majin Boo: 260

Boo (evil): 220
SSj3 Gotenks: 180
Ultimate Gohan: 120
Boo (Gotenks-absorbed): 100
Boo (Gohan-absorbed): 10
Super Vegetto: 0

That's hilarious. Thanks .

[Godo]

Yet you forgot the last (first) mentioned powerlevel, Herms. It's Trunks' Scouter reading of a mere 5. This destroys your list, unless the fact that Trunks took care of Freeza or Cold so easily was because of Trunks momentarily exceeding Buuhan's power.



Joking aside, I think that the max roof of the powerlevels went around ten to twenty billions at max.
Since new transformations became the new way of obtaining power (since training didn't do much anymore), only doubling or quadrupling power could help in fights, or fusion.

[caejones]

The last time I tried working this stuff out, I (reluctant to go so high) came up with SSJ3 characters being in the 1-2billion range, with only ridiculous characters (like Vegetto) going much higher than 2.5 billion.

And then the SEG comes in and gives me cause to redo all of that. T.T