Regarding Goku as a SSJ3

[TheDevilsCorpse]

So you're you saying Goku can maintain his Super Saiyan 3 form weaker than his Super Saiyan , am I correct?

Theoretically, yes. I do believe it is slightly more complicated than that, that there is a limit to how low one can go in base before the transformations are unable to be triggered. That is to say, that you can't transform into Super Saiyan 3 if you are limiting yourself to a battle power of say, 5. There are certain stages at which the transformations become available as to not stress the body and overly consume ki, but there are overlapping periods. The fact that the Saiyans can power up while in a Super Saiyan form would hint to the fact that they have not powered up to their maximum in their base form, and once they do so, their SS form reaches its peak as well. The two work in sync with each other, you can't be at max in Super Saiyan and then power down into a half powered base without extra work of lowering your power to that point as the transformation is canceled.

Goku:
Maximum-40,000,000
Supressed - 10,000,000

SS Goku:
Maximum - 2,000,000,000
Supressed - 500,000,000

SS2 Goku:
Maximum - 4,000,000,000
Supressed - 1,000,000,000

SS3 Goku:
Maximum - 16,000,000,000
Supressed - 4,000,000,000

This little,..hmm...chart(?) isn't my exact belief on the forms and the power requirements for them, but for my explanation, but it does serve it's purpose.

[SonEric84]

Where is it stated that SSJ3 is a 400x multiplier?

The Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume says that ordinary Super Saiyan increases the person's regular battle power by x50, while SSj2 increases strength by x2, and SSj3 increases strength by x4. So going by that, presumably SSj3 would make the person 400 (50x2x4) times as strong as their regular form. The book itself doesn't flat-out say this though, and since it describes regular SSj as multiplying "battle power" and SSj2 and SSj3 as multiplying "strength", some people think that it's not quite so simple. Personally I think that they described SSj2/3 as multiplying "strength" either for no real reason, or because "battle power" technically went out after the Freeza arc and so wouldn't be applicable to SSj2/3.

Ah, thanks for the info. I'm inclined to agree with your theory on that, I mean, numerical battle powers weren't part of the story anymore once Freeza was out of the picture. Plus, everyone got so strong it couldn't read their full power without blowing up first.

[Dayspring]

It may also be referring to how strong the forms would be. For example, with Goku "strength" can mean the same thing as BP, but with Gotenks, it simply wouldn't make sense. If SSJ3 were really SSJ2 BP x4, then the BP of SSJ3 Gotenks would equal 0, since he has no SSJ2 and thus no SSJ2 BP to multiply by 4. From this, we can argue that SSJ can be calculated with BPs, while SSJ2 and SSJ3 can't, but would be along the same lines as BPs. So for example:

"Base Strength = BP"
"SSJ Strength = Base x50 = BP x 50"
"SSJ2 Strength = SSJ Strength x2 = Base x 100"
"SS3 Strength = SSJ2 Strength x4 = Base x 400"

Thus, when they say "BP x 50," they can mean the same thing as "Base Strength x 50." However, while the math stays the same when they reach SSJ2 and SSJ3, the logic breaks down on account of how Gotenks has no SSJ2. So his SSJ3 form would be 4x stronger than what would be his SSJ2 form, if he had one. With BPs, a what-if scenario doesn't work, because we're talking about actual measurements, not generalizations.

[Bussani]

Goku: [r] Da…damn it…!! It’s already one minute, but…[l] No…not yet!! I still can’t wipe out Buu with this much…!!

^This seems to indicate Goku was charging-up his Chi for a powered-up attack. Pretty sure he knew he couldn't wipe out Kid Boo with anything other than Chi-attacks.

That's true, but like you said, Buu can't be wiped out by just a punch (unless it was a really big punch, I guess). It doesn't necessarily prove that gathering ki wouldn't have made him stronger/faster at the same time. It probably is just like Piccolo charging his Makankosappo, though.

Why people honestly believe that strength operates as never-ending multipliers (that depend on base forms) in DB though, I have no idea.

Because Oozaru apparently works that way? Kaioken too, in a fashion. Toriyama seems to like simple multipliers.

[Kaboom]

<Snip>

According to one of the guidebooks, Gotenks DOES have access to Super Saiyan 2. He apparently just never used it in the series.

[Savage68]

Why people honestly believe that strength operates as never-ending multipliers (that depend on base forms) in DB though, I have no idea.

Because Oozaru apparently works that way? Kaioken too, in a fashion. Toriyama seems to like simple multipliers.

That...explains how a Saiyan has no limits?

[Bussani]

I must have misunderstood what you were saying. I'm lost now.

[Herms]

According to one of the guidebooks, Gotenks DOES have access to Super Saiyan 2. He apparently just never used it in the series.

Yeah, Daizenshuu 7's Special Attack Dictionary and its index list it as one of his techniques, which is notable because it tends to restricts itself to techniques we actually see the characters use in the series, and so generally doesn't make exceptions even for techniques that it can be assumed the character knows/is capable of (ie it doesn't list the Kamehameha for Vegetto). Possibly this is because of one panel during Gotenks' SSj3 transformation where he still has short hair but is all sparky, similar to SSj2.

[Xyex]

I wouldn't have any problem going with the 50x for SSJ, and the 4x for SSJ3, but it's the SSJ2 multiplier that gets me. Their power is only supposed to be multiplied by 2x? That just seems way too minimal; I mean, even a signature ki blast tends to multiply the user's power by more than that.

Back in early Z, sure, we saw that they could do that, but nothing indicates that they can increase their attack levels but that drastic a percentage later on. Goku in his fight with Vegeta used a Kaioken x4 near the end, putting his base somewhere in the 32,000 range. Against Raditz his Kamehameha was "924 and still rising" which is about 2.2x higher than his power. 32,000 x 2.2 = 70,400 and there's no way Vegeta would have survived that, even with his Gallick Gun blunting part of the attack force.

Likewise, against Freeza, if you go with the Daizenshuu levels Goku's Kaioken x20 Kamehameha would have been a minimum of 60,000,000 x 2.2 = 132,000,000, or greater than Freeza's maximum level of power. Thus there would have been no way for Freeza to survive it, let alone block it with one hand and only be singed.

This is only a problem if you go "Well, Piccolo's base was 408 and his attack was 1,330, so he can make attacks about 3.26x stronger than himself." instead of "Well, Piccolo's base was 408 and his attack was 1,330, so he can make attacks about 922 points stronger than his maximum." Jump ahead to Piccolo with a maximum power of 3,000 and instead of putting out a maximum attack strength of 9,780 he can only manage 3,922. I don't think that's exactly how it works, but it's a good example to show it doesn't actually have to be a problem.

The way I see is that these increased power attacks are done by focus of the energy. Think of the attack like water from a garden hose. Standard attacks are just standard steams of water coming out of the hose. "Charged" attacks are when you make the nozzle a lot smaller and force the same amount of water out of a much tighter opening. The former is good for washing your car, the latter is good for cutting through wood.

Because the power increase is the result of compression, and only so much of anything can exist within a set space, the more power that is being output the less compressed you can force it, so you can't create as much of an apparent increase. So, as powers in crease, the amount of power you can increase an attack by, points wise, would go up, but the percentage amount would drop.

Example:
Base Goku - 416
Kamehameha - 924
Difference - 508 points, 2.2x

Kaioken x20 Goku - 60,000,000
Kamehameha - 75,000,000
Difference - 15,000,000 points, 1.2x

It may also be referring to how strong the forms would be. For example, with Goku "strength" can mean the same thing as BP, but with Gotenks, it simply wouldn't make sense. If SSJ3 were really SSJ2 BP x4, then the BP of SSJ3 Gotenks would equal 0, since he has no SSJ2 and thus no SSJ2 BP to multiply by 4.

Except that you can't get to SSJ3 without first going through SSJ2. The SSJ forms (barring the unique and different SSJ4, which really isn't an SSJ form) are progressive.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

According to one of the guidebooks, Gotenks DOES have access to Super Saiyan 2. He apparently just never used it in the series.

Yeah, Daizenshuu 7's Special Attack Dictionary and its index list it as one of his techniques, which is notable because it tends to restricts itself to techniques we actually see the characters use in the series, and so generally doesn't make exceptions even for techniques that it can be assumed the character knows/is capable of (ie it doesn't list the Kamehameha for Vegetto). Possibly this is because of one panel during Gotenks' SSj3 transformation where he still has short hair but is all sparky, similar to SSj2.

Yeah, I've always said that Gotenks was a Super Saiyan 2 on that page. I never understood where folks got the idea that Gotenks skipped that level. Sure, he never fought Boo in that form, but that's because he just wanted to "toy" with Boo as a regular Super Saiyan, and then bust out his new ultra-form.

[Akira]

Yeah, I've never understood it either. Gotenks would have to be capable of Super Saiyan 2 to have reached Super Saiyan 3, but he trained and reached both forms before Buu arrived. As was previously stated, he toyed with Buu in Super Saiyan, then went for the big guns with Super Saiyan 3.

[Nazi Cola]

Sorry if I offend anybody with this post, but I don't understand how some people can say Goku couldn't reach his full-power in SSjin 3 during his fight with Chibi Boo, meaning because he had severe trouble doing it (and couldn't do it overall) when he was charging up for a minute, that he couldn't possibly have been at full-power in the beginning. I just don't get it. It's not like he was weakened before the fight or anything. He went in fresh and he even said he had to go all-out from the getgo if he wanted to beat Boo.

He had virtually no control over the form since it was fairly new to him and it drained so much ki that he couldn't really use it anywhere other than the Afterlife, so I don't know how he could be holding back any power either.

[Bussani]

Sorry if I offend anybody with this post, but I don't understand how some people can say Goku couldn't reach his full-power in SSjin 3 during his fight with Chibi Boo, meaning because he had severe trouble doing it (and couldn't do it overall) when he was charging up for a minute, that he couldn't possibly have been at full-power in the beginning. I just don't get it. It's not like he was weakened before the fight or anything. He went in fresh and he even said he had to go all-out from the getgo if he wanted to beat Boo.

He had virtually no control over the form since it was fairly new to him and it drained so much ki that he couldn't really use it anywhere other than the Afterlife, so I don't know how he could be holding back any power either.

Well, I doubt anyone thinks he was holding back on purpose. It might be more like comparing it to the heart disease holding him back when he fought Android 19; he was still going all out, but he wasn't at full strength. You say he wasn't weakened, but we know that Super Saiyan 3 works differently for a living body than it does for a dead body, and this was his first time ever trying it with a living body, so maybe he just couldn't reach the full power he was used to. He tells Vegeta that he's been trying to gather his full power throughout the fight, but hasn't had a chance. This can be taken to mean something else, of course, like trying to charge up a big enough attack to wipe Buu out. But...if you don't have a chance to use your biggest attack, can you really call that "going all out"? I'm sure Goku was genuinely trying to give it his all, but Vegeta clearly thought that he was holding back (in some respect) for his sake, after all.

Could he increase his physical power and speed if he had time to focus and gather his ki? I don't know, to be honest. I lean more toward comparing it to Piccolo charging his Makankosappo, but that might not have been the first impression I got when I read the manga.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I think we all believed Goku was simply trying to power-up to increase his overall ability when we first read/watched that part. He even says later "I got close to full-power" or something, so it's understandable as to why many would be reluctant to believe the entire point is to power-up for a big finisher.

However, once you look at it from many different angles, it makes the most sense.

[jackjack]

He says "I gathered my ki close to full power", so it doesn't seem like he's powering up to me.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Well, we didn't always have access to the Original text to verify little things like that--but thanks for posting it anyway.

[jackjack]

Thank Herms.

[Bussani]

He says "I gathered my ki close to full power", so it doesn't seem like he's powering up to me.

Is there a big distinction between gathering one's ki and powering up? I mean, I'd probably agree with your interpretation of the line, but couldn't it still be taken a different way? Do they even use the term "power up" in Japanese for when they bring out their true power?

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Yeah, they actually say パワーアップ (pawa-appu) in the Japanese version.

[Bussani]

Okay then. Thanks.