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[Xyex]

How? They've done nothing but training for 7 years (Goku and Vegeta). Its not like their base form just stops getting stronger. Goku could have owned Yakkon in base and he's around stronger than Freeza. And there is an entire warrior CLASS on Namek. Meaning more than one.

We have nothing to tell us how powerful Pui Pui or Yakon were, aside from the fact that Vegeta and Goku defeated them.

And so what if Goku and Vegeta have trained for seven years. That doesn't mean their powers have increased 100 fold. Goku trained for more than 11 years, and got a power-up, between the 21st Budokai the start of Z, and increased his power by around 286 points.

[Ussj Future Trunks]

Well if Vegeta ssj1 has arguably surpassed Gohan's ssj2 then obviously they can increase their base/ssj1 power.

[Xyex]

Well if Vegeta ssj1 has arguably surpassed Gohan's ssj2 then obviously they can increase their base/ssj1 power.

I never said they couldn't. But just because they get stronger doesn't mean they increased in strength by 100 fold just because you think bigger numbers are cooler.

Base Goku vs. Freeza - 2,000,000
+ SSJ - 100,000,000
Base Goku vs. Androids - 4,000,000
+ SSJ - 200,000,000
Base Goku vs. Cell - 12,000,000
+ SSJ - 600,000,000
Base Goku vs. Buu - 34,000,000
+ SSJ3 - 5,100,000,000
+ SSJ3 (SEG) - 13,600,000,000

The powers increase just fine thanks to the transformations (which is, you know, the entire point of them) without point the base pointlessly high. The only time powers gained incredibly fast was when they were abusing the hell out of the Zenkai. They didn't do that after Namek, they couldn't, and so power growth went back to more like the way it had been before.

And take a look:

Base Vegeta at Cell Games - 9,000,000
+ SSJ - 450,000,000
Base Vegeta at Buu Saga - 16,000,000
+ SSJ - 800,000,000

See? Vegeta's now stronger in SSJ than he was 7 years ago. Stronger than Goku was 7 years ago. Stronger than Gohan is now. Gohan, who's fighting evenly at SSJ against Dabura. Yeah, I think he can take him just fine.

And why the hell do you think they spent so much effort improving SSJ and trying to reach SSJ2? Power growth in base just wasn't fast enough to deal with the threat.

[Kaboom]

That's incorrect. Nail was simply the strongest warrior Namekian. The three Namekians that Dodoria killed, with power ratings of 3000 each, were warrior types. I think you might be remembering something Saichoro (I think?) said about Nail being the last Namekian warrior, but that's only true because Freeza killed the others. Saichoro also said that Nail was unlike any of the other Namekians Freeza had seen. He was probably a freak of nature like Goku, Vegeta and the Ginyu Force.

No, those three were never referred to as Warrior-types in the manga. They were farmers like the older ones, but just stronger because they were younger and in better shape. Nail was the only true, born-and-bred "Warrior-Type," and was LEAGUES above them in power. The Grand Elder specifically says that Nail is different from all the other Namekians Freeza had killed up to that point.

Well if Vegeta ssj1 has arguably surpassed Gohan's ssj2 then obviously they can increase their base/ssj1 power.

With things like Zenkais out of the picture, and gravity-training becoming less and less effective the stronger you get, they're only going to gain power so quickly. Their base states and overall power aren't going to just increase several fold from just training. That's why things like new transformations and Fusion and what-not became such a central point. Because simple training doesn't yield worthwhile results after a certain point.

EDIT: Xyex beat me to it. Oh well.

[Ussj Future Trunks]

I don't want to start a debate, but I think Gohan was ssj2 vs Dabura. So Vegeta ssj1 > Gohan ssj2. And it wasn't even. At least not the fight I was watching.

[Xyex]

I don't want to start a debate, but I think Gohan was ssj2 vs Dabura. So Vegeta ssj1 > Gohan ssj2. And it wasn't even. At least not the fight I was watching.

Even if Gohan were an SSJ2 at that point, there's zero reason to assume that SSJ1 Vegeta would be stronger than him. That's completely absurd, especially considering that just a little time swinging around a sword gets Gohan stronger than Goku.

[Ussj Future Trunks]

Yeah you're right. Sorry, was having an off day. Gohan was a SSj2 since he had the spiky one banged hair. And Goku pretty much said Dabura was at least around SPC. NO way can a SSj1 fight evenly with someone that strong.

[Rocketman]

Yeah you're right. Sorry, was having an off day. Gohan was a SSj2 since he had the spiky one banged hair.

He didn't have lightning, and manga SS2s always do (barring odd panels like closeups and faraways).

[Ussj Future Trunks]

Toriyama admitted he forgets things about his own manga and Dabura was stated as stronger than Perfect Cell. How can a SSJ1 fight evenly with someone that strong?

[Godo]

Toriyama admitted he forgets things about his own manga and Dabura was stated as stronger than Perfect Cell. How can a SSJ1 fight evenly with someone that strong?

There is no mention of which Cell Goku was referring to.
He could have been referring to either Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell.
With Gohan being a SSJ1 only, it seems like Goku was referring to Perfect Cell.
Hell, I don't think there is any more mention of which Cell he referred to, if he was Perfect or not.

[Rocketman]

Toriyama admitted he forgets things about his own manga and Dabura was stated as stronger than Perfect Cell. How can a SSJ1 fight evenly with someone that strong?

How can Toriyama forget so perfectly that Gohan doesn't have lightning, but Gohan at the tournament, Goku and Vegeta do?

[Blue]

Toriyama admitted he forgets things about his own manga and Dabura was stated as stronger than Perfect Cell. How can a SSJ1 fight evenly with someone that strong?

How can Toriyama forget so perfectly that Gohan doesn't have lightning, but Gohan at the tournament, Goku and Vegeta do?

I'm not really even listening to this debate so I'm not trying to defend any specific point but this is the man who forgot the name of a main villain one chapter after he was introduced.

[Xyex]

Toriyama admitted he forgets things about his own manga and Dabura was stated as stronger than Perfect Cell. How can a SSJ1 fight evenly with someone that strong?

No one, ever, anywhere in the manga, even remotely hinted once that Dabura was even remotely as strong as Super Perfect Cell. Goku said 'around Cell' and then 'stronger than I thought' and that's it.

And how can an SSJ1 fight fairly evenly with someone of Cell's level? Well, let's see....

Base - 15
SSJ - 775
Cell - 750
Dabura - 800

Looks like it works to me~

Toriyama admitted he forgets things about his own manga and Dabura was stated as stronger than Perfect Cell. How can a SSJ1 fight evenly with someone that strong?

How can Toriyama forget so perfectly that Gohan doesn't have lightning, but Gohan at the tournament, Goku and Vegeta do?

I'm not really even listening to this debate so I'm not trying to defend any specific point but this is the man who forgot the name of a main villain one chapter after he was introduced.

Except what you are suggesting is that Toriyama forgot to draw the lightning around Gohan in every single panel after the world tournament, including in panels that directly followed him drawing the SSJ2 lightning around Vegeta and Goku.

The plain and simple fact is, whether you think it works on it, Gohan was a Super Saiya-jin 1 in his fight with Dabura. There is nothing to suggest otherwise except a single incorrect line in the Daizenshuu which is itself contradicted in the Daizenshuu.

[Godo]

The plain and simple fact is, whether you think it works on it, Gohan was a Super Saiya-jin 1 in his fight with Dabura. There is nothing to suggest otherwise except a single incorrect line in the Daizenshuu which is itself contradicted in the Daizenshuu.

AMEN to that! We have had this discussion for eons on these forums, and it always ends with users drawing up the Daizenshuu as the right source to go with, proudly throwing out their "facts" and simply "forgetting" that the same bible they worship as evidence material in this certain matter contradicts itself.
Thus, by international standards, a source that contradicts itself can't be used in discussions, and it's entries regarding Gohan and when he used his SSJ and SSJ2 forms are invalid as an argument.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaand, the only thing left we have to use as proof is:

1) Gohan didn't have any sparks
2) Goku and Vegeta did have sparks
3) The two fights occured "at the same time", and
4) The manga has never shown a SSJ2 without sparks for a whole fight

And...DRUMROLL...the ultimate proof that Toriyama didn't forget the sparks...DRUMROLL...



Gohan has a SSJ1 aura, not a SSJ2 aura, as shown in the picture above. The SSJ1 aura is more fluent, whilst the SSJ2 aura is jagged with bolts.

The myth is dead, people.

[Kaboom]

AMEN to that! We have had this discussion for eons on these forums, and it always ends with users drawing up the Daizenshuu as the right source to go with, proudly throwing out their "facts" and simply "forgetting" that the same bible they worship as evidence material in this certain matter contradicts itself.

To be fair, more often the argument is that the story "doesn't make sense" unless Gohan's a Super Saiyan 2. But this is also heavily flawed, as I've tried to demonstrate many times.

Anyway, this isn't the appropriate topic for this, I'm afraid (though admittedly I haven't helped). This is supposed to be about showing off original characters, so let's try to get back to that. I'm not sure when it diverged into this dead horse-beating session.

[Blue]

*Spergin'

Never underestimate Toriyama's terrible memory.

(No but seriously I'm not on either side of the argument, I'm totally apathetic. JUST JOKIN' MAAAAN )

[Ludwig]

... isn't this a create a character thread? Or I'm about to post something in the wrong place?

[Rocketman]

... isn't this a create a character thread?

Yup. So to get back on-topic:

[Blue]

Oh man thanks Rocketman, I'm well on my way to making Gokugetazza D. Uzamaki even MORE perfect then he was before.

[Godo]

New character:

Son Gokua

Description:
The third son of Son Goku and Chi chi. Named Gokua due to his hellish nature. It's a mystery why he was born so evil, and some say that it's because of that all the Son-family's good energy was negated due to the negative energy from the Dragonballs, putting all their evil and weaknesses into Gokua.
So basically, his personality is that he is impatient, easily angered and too fixated about how to do things right and wrong.
As a result of his anti-Goku personality, he only trains to become stronger for himself, and to crush any resistance.
At the age of 12, when he escaped from the Son Family's home, he had already learned the SSJ transformations and the Kaio-ken.
His goal is to defeat Son Goku when his own power has become great enough, and to take over the world and the Universe.

Powerlevel: 2,600,000,000 as a SSJ3

Techniques: Other than all the Z-fighter techniques that he has mastered, his own techniques are:
Mouth Kamehameha, Tricyclic Kiai Attack, Feet Kienzan

Transformations: Kaio-ken x20, SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3, Oozaru, Oozaru SSJ3

You should never, in any instances, take this character and the info about him seriously.