Elder Kaioshin

[Takuy]

This Kaio, Elder Kai/Old Kai, in the dub, he states he is the Kaioshin of 15 generations prior to the current Kaioshin (East Kaioshin). However, what was his actual Rank? Was he the Dai Kaioshin, as that is what the East Kaioshin had to become after the other four were defeated/absorbed, or was he the East Kaioshin of 15 generations ago?

[Senzu_Bean]

He was the East Kaioshin of his time. I believe he says it himself on the story.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I don't recall his rank ever being stated.

[Savage68]

I think he was in the same rank as the East Kaioshin was (overseer of a single universal quadrant). They're wearing the same garb.

And if I remember correctly, Goku says something about how the Elder Kaioshin is "what a Kaioshin should be like," comparing him to the East Kaioshin sitting right next to him.

[Herms]

He's called the East Kaioshin of 15 generations ago in the anime guidebook DBZ Goku Densetsu. Don't remember if that's said in the series or not. I know that in the manga, in the chapter where he gives his life to Goku, Goku and Kibito call him "Dai-Kaioshin", but he's never called that either before or after. Possibly they decided to elect him to the empty position due to his seniority, or maybe they just needed to call him something to differentiate him from the current Kaioshin (I don't believe the phrase "Elder Kaioshin" ever got used in the actual manga).

[Dayspring]

I have a follow-up question: what defines a "generation" in this instance? For example, does it inherently mean that he was the East Kaioshin 15 Kaioshins ago, or that he was simply the East Kaioshin 15X years ago?

[Piccolo Daimao]

I have a follow-up question: what defines a "generation" in this instance? For example, does it inherently mean that he was the East Kaioshin 15 Kaioshins ago, or that he was simply the East Kaioshin 15X years ago?

Generations are never really specific dates, are they? Son Goku describes Son Goten and Trunks as "the next generation", and that's 7 years after Son Gohan was supposedly meant to be "the next generation" (was never stated, but at least implied, with the whole "I'm dead, leave it to Gohan" thing).

Perhaps it means that there are groups of Kaioshins, and that after those four die, the next four carry on. So, that would be defined as that generation of Kaioshins. So he'd be 15 groups of Kaioshins ago, or something like that.

[Dayspring]

I have a follow-up question: what defines a "generation" in this instance? For example, does it inherently mean that he was the East Kaioshin 15 Kaioshins ago, or that he was simply the East Kaioshin 15X years ago?

Generations are never really specific dates, are they? Son Goku describes Son Goten and Trunks as "the next generation", and that's 7 years after Son Gohan was supposedly meant to be "the next generation" (was never stated, but at least implied, with the whole "I'm dead, leave it to Gohan" thing).

A generation (when used as a measurement of time) is equal to the amount of time it takes a person to reach complete physical maturity, which is why most say 25 years, while others toss in numbers ranging as low as 18.

I would assume this instance would mean a Kaioshin generation and not a human's, so an unknown amount of time (6 minutes? 42 days? 8 trillion years?). It'd be neat to know what that time is, if it's explained in a guidebook, but I don't really need to know. I just more want to know if it's this kind of a generation or not.

Perhaps it means that there are groups of Kaioshins, and that after those four die, the next four carry on. So, that would be defined as that generation of Kaioshins. So he'd be 15 groups of Kaioshins ago, or something like that.

That's certainly plausible, but do we know that for certain in the original manga (or at least a guide book)?

[Herms]

A generation (when used as a measurement of time) is equal to the amount of time it takes a person to reach complete physical maturity, which is why most say 25 years, while others toss in numbers ranging as low as 18.

For the record, in the United States a generation is legally defined as 20 years. At least that's what I remember from my charitable giving class in college (this is, in fact, the only thing I remember from said class).

I would assume this instance would mean a Kaioshin generation and not a human's, so an unknown amount of time (6 minutes? 42 days? 8 trillion years?). It'd be neat to know what that time is, if it's explained in a guidebook, but I don't really need to know. I just more want to know if it's this kind of a generation or not.

I don't believe it's ever really explicitly explained in any guidebook, although Daizenshuu 7's timeline seems to assume that a Kaioshin generation is about 5 million years, by placing the date of the Elder Kaioshin's imprisonment as "about 75 million years ago" (5 million x 15 = 75 million).

[Dayspring]

A generation (when used as a measurement of time) is equal to the amount of time it takes a person to reach complete physical maturity, which is why most say 25 years, while others toss in numbers ranging as low as 18.

For the record, in the United States a generation is legally defined as 20 years. At least that's what I remember from my charitable giving class in college (this is, in fact, the only thing I remember from said class).

"Generation" needs a legal definition? I never knew that. I wonder if it's the same here.

I would assume this instance would mean a Kaioshin generation and not a human's, so an unknown amount of time (6 minutes? 42 days? 8 trillion years?). It'd be neat to know what that time is, if it's explained in a guidebook, but I don't really need to know. I just more want to know if it's this kind of a generation or not.

I don't believe it's ever really explicitly explained in any guidebook, although Daizenshuu 7's timeline seems to assume that a Kaioshin generation is about 5 million years, by placing the date of the Elder Kaioshin's imprisonment as "about 75 million years ago" (5 million x 15 = 75 million).

When was Boo sealed, though? Was that less than 5 million years ago?

[Herms]

"Generation" needs a legal definition? I never knew that. I wonder if it's the same here.

Well, it comes up for things like inter-generational trust funds and whatnot.

When was Boo sealed, though? Was that less than 5 million years ago?

"About 5 million years ago", in the D7 timeline. So their reasoning seems to be that if East Kaioshin is still around 5 million years later, a Kaioshin generation must be at least that long, and so the Kaioshin of 15 generations ago must have been sealed away at least 75 million years ago.

[Dayspring]

"Generation" needs a legal definition? I never knew that. I wonder if it's the same here.

Well, it comes up for things like inter-generational trust funds and whatnot.

When was Boo sealed, though? Was that less than 5 million years ago?

"About 5 million years ago", in the D7 timeline. So their reasoning seems to be that if East Kaioshin is still around 5 million years later, a Kaioshin generation must be at least that long, and so the Kaioshin of 15 generations ago must have been sealed away at least 75 million years ago.

I remember now, thanks!

Was there ever anything else besides the D7 Timeline that hinted at anything? We seem to have confirmation that 1 Kaioshin Generation = 5 million years, but does that also mean each period of 5 million years had a different kaioshin?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

No, and in fact, the idea that none of the Kaioshin killed by Buu have been replaced in all that time frame doesn't help any. East Kaioshin was stated to be the youngest, so the others were obviously there before him, possibly WAY before him. So there is no guarantee that there was one for every 5 million years, as the the golden fruit from the Kaiju are said to be really rare. If there was even one golden fruit between Buu's creation and his return in the Buu Saga, they wouldn't even have had to had a lottery, the Shin-jin should have just been appointed. So there can be at least 5,000,000+ years between golden fruit appearing.

The SEG makes this worse by explaining that the Shin-jin have a lifespan of 75,000 years. So unless becoming a god grants you a longer life, East Kaioshin living for 5 million years makes him a mutant Shin-jin or something.

[Herms]

The SEG makes this worse by explaining that the Shin-jin have a lifespan of 75,000 years. So unless becoming a god grants you a longer life, East Kaioshin living for 5 million years makes him a mutant Shin-jin or something.

I suppose that we're supposed to assume that Shinjin born from golden fruit live far longer than regular ones. Or maybe Kaioshins are the Shinjin equivalent of long-lived Earthlings like Kame-sennin.

[Dayspring]

The SEG makes this worse by explaining that the Shin-jin have a lifespan of 75,000 years. So unless becoming a god grants you a longer life, East Kaioshin living for 5 million years makes him a mutant Shin-jin or something.

I suppose that we're supposed to assume that Shinjin born from golden fruit live far longer than regular ones. Or maybe Kaioshins are the Shinjin equivalent of long-lived Earthlings like Kame-sennin.

75,000? How long ago did Enma reach Kaio?

[Darkprince410]

According to the driver that took Goku to Serpent Road, he did it within the past hundred million years.

[Herms]

Of course, the oni doesn't even mention anything about Kaio specifically, just that Enma is the only person to have crossed the Snake Road in the last 100 million years.

[Dayspring]

Of course, the oni doesn't even mention anything about Kaio specifically, just that Enma is the only person to have crossed the Snake Road in the last 100 million years.

Ah, I see. So it just means that somewhere between "now" and "100 million years ago," only Enma crossed Snakeway, not that Enma met Kaio 100 million years ago. Am I getting that right?

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Either way, there was a different Kaio around 100 million years ago.

[Herms]

Ah, I see. So it just means that somewhere between "now" and "100 million years ago," only Enma crossed Snakeway, not that Enma met Kaio 100 million years ago. Am I getting that right?

Yep.