Saiyans before Freeza

[Zep]

There was a lot of filler material about the history of the Saiyans that was introduced in the anime long before Freeza was developed by Toriyama in the manga, which seemed to claim they were always war-like, planet-plundering barbarians who stole or bought almost all the technology they had... However I want to ask if anything is mentioned about what the Saiyans were like in the original source material.

Judging from Vegeta's talk about Freeza corrupting the Saiyans after he enslaved them and made them capture planets for him, I assume they weren't all evil space pirates before Freeza came along.

[Herms]

Judging from Vegeta's talk about Freeza corrupting the Saiyans after he enslaved them and made them capture planets for him, I assume they weren't all evil space pirates before Freeza came along.

Vegeta never says anything like that in the original manga or anime. I don't think anything is said in the manga about what the Saiyans did before Freeza, except that Raditz explains the whole conquering and selling planets gig as something they started on their own, so maybe they were already doing that when they joined up with Freeza. Kaio's anime flashback and the Daizenshuu 7 timeline also show the Saiyans starting to conquer planets on their own before joining Freeza. In the Super Exciting Guides, Toriyama explains that the Saiyans have pretty much always been a bunch of rat-bastards, going from planet to planet stealing resources.

[Eire]

Vegeta dying at Namek said something like "Frieza made him like he is", he didn't say it about whole race.
I wouldn't believe Kaio since he lied about destruction of the planet (or he really considered Frieza as a god). The lack of sources in that case really annoys me.

[Zep]

Judging from Vegeta's talk about Freeza corrupting the Saiyans after he enslaved them and made them capture planets for him, I assume they weren't all evil space pirates before Freeza came along.

Vegeta never says anything like that in the original manga or anime.

Right... What exactly does he say in that scene really, then?

Vegeta dying at Namek said something like "Freeza made him like he is", he didn't say it about whole race.

I've heard that was a dub change. I got the idea that Vegeta said that Freeza corrupted the Saiyans, while the dub changed it so that only Vegeta was the one who Freeza corrupted. I forget where I read that... Probably DBZ Uncensored quite a few years ago.

[Senzu_Bean]

I asked the same on the SEG thread. Basically that's what Herms posted regarding the subject:

The section also explains that all the nifty technology the Saiyans are shown using aren’t their own inventions, but rather stuff they stole from other planets. This goes along with Toriyama’s comment in the interview section, where he says that since time immemorial the Saiyans raided other planets and built up goods and wealth.

And I always thought the Saiyans are cave-men like before Freeza "enslaved" them.

[Eire]

Judging from Vegeta's talk about Freeza corrupting the Saiyans after he enslaved them and made them capture planets for him, I assume they weren't all evil space pirates before Freeza came along.

Vegeta never says anything like that in the original manga or anime.

Right... What exactly does he say in that scene really, then?

In manga and Japanese anime he tells him about fate of Sayans and beg to become SSJ and beat Frieza.

Vegeta dying at Namek said something like "Freeza made him like he is", he didn't say it about whole race.

I've heard that was a dub change. I got the idea that Vegeta said that Freeza corrupted the Saiyans, while the dub changed it so that only Vegeta was the one who Freeza corrupted. I forget where I read that... Probably DBZ Uncensored quite a few years ago.[/quote]
As I remember in US version Vegeta begs Goku for forgiveness.

It's clear that the Sayians seen in anime are fairly new socjety and Vegeta's father seem to be their first king. It seemt that after beating that second race on their planet they took not only their technology but also some forms of culture (like Mongol in China).

[Herms]

Right... What exactly does he say in that scene really, then?

Vegeta tells Goku that if he could get rid of his softness, he could become a Super Saiyan, then says this about the Saiyans (minus Goku and the others' comments, and all of Vegeta's stuttering):

Listen closely, Kakarot…Planet Vegeta, the world which you and I were born on, wasn’t destroyed by colliding with a giant meteorite…Freeza attacked it! Even though we Saiyans served as his arms and legs, working according to his orders…Everyone except us was killed…Your parents too, and even my father the king…All because Freeza was frightened that a Super Saiyan would be born among the Saiyans, since we had begun gaining power…I beg you…Please defeat Freeza…Please…As a Saiyan…

At which point he dies. That's from the manga, it might be different in the anime.

I asked the same on the SEG thread.

Huh, guess I missed that. Sorry.

And I always thought the Saiyans are cave-men like before Freeza "enslaved" them.

Well, they certainly still could be caveman-like if they just stole all their technology and were unable to really make any of their own. Even in GT were it shows the early Saiyans arriving on Planet Plant in spaceships, they're still dressed like stereotypical cavemen.

[Senzu_Bean]

I see... however there is nothing that indicates (expect filler) the space-pods and the scouters to have been used by Saiyans before Freeza's army?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I see... however there is nothing that indicates (expect filler) the space-pods and the scouters to have been used by Saiyans before Freeza's army?

No idea about the attack balls, but one of Herms' posts in the past confirmed scouters are Tsufuru-jin tech in anime notes from Toriyama I believe.

Here:

Saiyan/Tsufruian background
Toriyama outlined most of the Saiyan/Tsufruian backstory that appears in DBZ episode 20. His memo on this is reprinted in the DBZ Anime Special, Daizenshuu 5, and Son Goku Densetsu (the readability of said memo varies with each reproduction, though).

Planet Plant is a difficult planet to live on, as its gravity is unusually strong. However, two races live here. The majority of the inhabitants of Planet Plant are Tsufruian. Their bodies are small, but knowledge-wise they have a comparatively advanced culture and civilization. The other race has an unusually small population, but their bodies are large and strong. They are a primitive, warlike race called the Saiyans. Their biggest distinguishing characteristic is that they have tails, and every one of them seems to be a warrior.

[Picture of Tsufuru, with scouter and blaster gun, labeled “Tsufruian”. We see a colored version of this guy in DBZ episode 20 when Kaio introduces the Tsufruians] Due to the heavy gravity, they are about half as big as the Saiyans.

[arrow pointing to scouter on Tsufruian's head] This scouter, for instance, and other such things were originally Tsufuru inventions.

[picture of three caveman-like Saiyans, all three of which ended up appearing in Kaio’s flashback] The Saiyans of long ago

[picture of the Saiyans’ rocky housing] The housing area that the ancient Saiyans lived in (perhaps more varied shapes might be good?)

It’s notable that Toriyama’s memo uses the name “Planet Plant”, which is later mentioned in “Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans” and DBGT as being the original name of Planet Vegeta before the Saiyans took it over, but is not actually mentioned in DBZ episode 20. Oddly, the DBZ Anime Special and Son Goku Densetsu pictures of the memo show “Planet Plant” crossed out in red, with “Planet Vegeta” written in, but the Daizenshuu 5 picture doesn’t have this. This implies that there are at least 2 copies of this memo.

From what is shown of Toriyama’s memo, it mentions nothing about Planet Vegeta’s god causing a meteor to collide with the planet, as seen in DBZ episode 20. A caption in the DBZ Anime Special does mention this, but says nothing about it being Toriyama’s idea (the caption is, oddly, for a picture of the two “phantom Saiyans” from a completely different filler episode).

Also...

Daizenshuu 5: TV Animation Part 2
More ideas that Toriyama supplied the anime staff with (this is still from p.68): The Tsufuru are only ½ as tall as the Saiyans, due to their planet’s high gravity and the fact that they aren’t as strong as the Saiyans. Saibaiman are made from Saiyan biotechnology. Scouters are Tsufuru technology.

[Terra-jin]

I see... however there is nothing that indicates (expect filler) the space-pods and the scouters to have been used by Saiyans before Freeza's army?

It always made much more sense to me all those gadgets were made by Freeza's empire, not the Saiyans (or Tsufuru). It fits completely in their style, so the idea that they got it from the Saiyans seems a little off. If that's the official explanation, so be it, but I still like my idea better

Didn't Kaio say something like the Saiyans being contracted by aliens to conquer planets? Powerful, strange-looking aliens with horns and black lips perhaps? I'd like to think that Freeza started the whole planet-pirating business... there's this one stray comment by Kaio that Vegeta (the Saiyans) weren't the root of the problem. That seems to indicate that the Saiyans were not the ones who started it all. They were just very eager to join the club

Just imagine it... the empire would stumble upon planet Vegeta as just another world to take over, so they sent one of their squads (five fighters of course) only to be greeted by a whole race of battle hungry warriors Upon seeing the slaughtered corpses of his followers, Freeza must've been like "hmmm, interesting! Ok, you're hired" I'm sure it wasn't a difficult decision for the Saiyans... "would you like to go and fight powerful enemies all over the universe?" :O

[Senzu_Bean]

No idea about the attack balls, but one of Herms' posts in the past confirmed scouters are Tsufuru-jin tech in anime notes from Toriyama I believe.

However that is still filler, even though Akira Toriyama contributed.

For example, I don't expect Piccolo to able to divide himself in two even though Akira Toriyama got that idea for filler.

It always made much more sense to me all those gadgets were made by Freeza's empire, not the Saiyans (or Tsufuru).

Same here. Probably the Saiyans sold or whatever the technology they stool not the planets themselves like Freeza.

And isn't there something about a planet Saiya on the SEG?

[Terra-jin]

And isn't there something about a planet Saiya on the SEG?

Saiya is the name of planet Vegeta's moon

Not really... but it'd be cool

[Herms]

And isn't there something about a planet Saiya on the SEG?

No, there's nothing at all in the SEG about "Planet Saiya". Rather, that term originates from the GT Perfect Files Vol.1, which says this:

Where is the Saiyans’ true homeland?
The mysterious “Planet Saiya”
Planet Vegeta (formally Planet Plant) was originally the Tsufruians’ planet, and not the homeland of the Saiyans. The roots of the Saiya are unknown, and all that is recorded is that “the primitive Saiyans drifted to Planet Plant on a mysterious spaceship”. Perhaps the launching point of that spaceship could possibly itself be the Saiyans’ true homeland. And just maybe the Saiyans’ home world still exists somewhere in space!?

DB wikia has (or had, maybe they changed it) a particularly bad page on "Planet Saiyan" (as they called it), which among other inaccuracies claimed that Toriyama mentioned the planet in the SEGs. The page is perversely amusing in that virtually everything it says is wrong in some way. All the information in the world about "Planet Saiya" (which is really only given as a provisional name) is in the quote above, so if you hear anything else more specific, just discard it.

[Dio Brando]

The things I could piece together from all the versions of the Saiyajin story are:

- The Saiyajins were defeated in a war against an unknown race, and fleed their planet in a spaceship. They reached Planet Plant. The Tufflejins didn't seem to mind their presence, the Saiyajins were mostly barbaric, and didn't live among the Tufflejins. They lived in their own primitive houses (if you call a cave a house...). There were tensions between them, but never all-out war. It seems that even though the Saiyajins were stronger than the Tufflejins, they couldn't defeat them decisively, because the Tufflejins had some strong guns (Kaioh mentions this).

- But then, King Vegeta led a final attack against the Tufflejins when the moon appeared in Plant. I believe it was said it only appeared every 8 or 10 years or something... or was it 8 days? I don't remember. Anyway, this is when the Saiyajins finally got the edge they were after, and decisively exterminated most of the Tufflejins.

- From the way they are pictured in the anime, they may had some technology on their home planet, but when they reached Plant, almost all of it was lost. You see all the Saiyajins dressed in rags and living in caves. This may be because they couldn't get back in contact with the Planet Selling Organization (or something like that, have to look at the Encyclopedia again).

- Those aliens that appear paying gold to a Saiyajin in exchange for a planet don't seem to be the only race in the Organization. Most likely it's a conglomerate of several races.

- As Kaioh said, those races paid the Saiyajins with money and technology, which they were in need of.

There's something interesting about this, though... when Raditz comes to Earth, he tells Goku that "he and the two other Saiyajin" found a good planet to sell, but it would be pretty hard with just the three of them. So Raditz had the idea of checking on Earth to recruit Goku to their group. This is not a very important plot point, but I wonder which race was so strong that even two elite Sayajin couldn't take care of them. Of course, maybe there was a planet full of weak, but numerous warriors, so they didn't want to risk losing in the long term.

Just wondering, because save for a few cases, most of the races on Dragon Ball seem to be pretty weak, and even amongst the most known (Namekuseijins, etc), there are only a few notable warriors. One scene that leads credit to this is when Vegeta confronts Nail in front of the Guru's house, and although he's very sarcastic about it, he is being careful about confronting Nail.

Another thing that leads to the "lots of weak warriors" thing I thought was when Goku arrived on Earth and Vegeta told Nappa about it, he ordered him to kill the rest of Goku's friends fast, because "If they get together, it will be a big problem". Maybe he's talking based on experience? Even Nappa seems to suggest this once, before starting their battle (when everyone was alive) - he asks Vegeta if it's ok fighting against all of them, since their powerlevels combined could overcome his.

Just my two bits.

[Dayspring]

And isn't there something about a planet Saiya on the SEG?

No, there's nothing at all in the SEG about "Planet Saiya". Rather, that term originates from the GT Perfect Files Vol.1

The term itself, sure, but didn't the SEG have some throwaway statement on how their homeworld (unnamed) may still be out there somewhere (in the section that mentioned they were already space-vikings before meeting Freeza)?