The power of Mr.Satan

[Gaffer Tape]

Well, yes, he's certainly stronger than, say, Bulma, but I just don't see that it's because he won the Tenkaichi Budoukai. There's no causality there. He's stronger than Bulma because he's a capable fighter. He most likely won the Tenkaichi Budoukai because he was the most capable fighter competing. Oh, and just for the record, I've never been making any presumptions of fact, and my initial post wasn't directed only at you. I was mostly arguing against the steadfast mindset other posters were making earlier about being able to compare the strength of Mr. Satan versus other, previous Budoukai competitors based on their outcome.

[LeprikanGT]

Well, yes, he's certainly stronger than, say, Bulma, but I just don't see that it's because he won the Tenkaichi Budoukai. There's no causality there. He's stronger than Bulma because he's a capable fighter. He most likely won the Tenkaichi Budoukai because he was the most capable fighter competing. Oh, and just for the record, I've never been making any presumptions of fact, and my initial post wasn't directed only at you. I was mostly arguing against the steadfast mindset other posters were making earlier about being able to compare the strength of Mr. Satan versus other, previous Budoukai competitors based on their outcome.

I'm gonna settle with "One of the strongest humans on Earth". Aside from the Z people, he did win the tournament [strongest men that showed up] and from what we saw at the tournament that Babidi messed up, Mr. Satan had the highest points on the punching machine right?

Also; power doesn't ALWAYS mean strength. When it came down to it [Kid Buu fight] he pretty much saved the universe by getting the Earth to give it's energy AND moving Vegeta out of the way so Goku could throw the spirit bomb. So, he had the power to save the universe that Vegeta did not.

[omegacwa]

Where did this notion that Satan is weaker than Pan Put and King Chappa even come from? Is it in a daizenshuu?

If there is no definitive proof that says he is weaker then why are you guys assuming he is?

Mr. Satan is a world class martial artist and has won the Tenkaichi Budokai. This is in no way a small feat.

You do realize that when the announcer says the competition hasn't been as good with out Goku and the likes he means exactly just that. Goku, Yamcha, Krillin, Roshi, Ten, and so on. He is not referring to Nam or such.

When Mr. Satan competed he faced off against the worlds greatest Earthlings and won. That would make him probably around Nam level, because if Goku Roshi and Krillin hadn't fought, Nam probably would have won. Nam didn't use Ki, neither does Mr. Satan.

It's not like the year Mr. Satan competed he fought a bunch of first year white belts or something. He faced guys like King Chappa, Pan Putt, and Nam. Real earthlings.

Mr. Satan's power level is by far above 8. Goku's level in the 21st tournament was above 10, so Mr. Satan's level had to be above above that. I think somewhere between 30-100 seems fair for Mr. Satan, considering technically Krillin didn't use Ki until the 22nd Budokai and his level was above 50 in the 21st.

And why do people think Yajirobe is so terrible. His power level is listed at just under 1000. Why deny it? Goku says that they are even after the 22nd budokai, which would mean he is stronger than Roshi at that point. Yajirobe is a freak of Nature. Karin even says so, being blown away that he climbed the tower so fast even while carrying Goku. It's exactly what Roshi said, that even if your are super strong there is always someone out there stronger.

[Gaffer Tape]

When Mr. Satan competed he faced off against the worlds greatest Earthlings and won. That would make him probably around Nam level, because if Goku Roshi and Krillin hadn't fought, Nam probably would have won. Nam didn't use Ki, neither does Mr. Satan.

Well, see, you're doing the exact same thing you're criticizing. You're assuming his strength based on no empirical data. There's nothing to say either way that he would be stronger or weaker than someone like Namu. There's simply nothing there.

[LeprikanGT]

When Mr. Satan competed he faced off against the worlds greatest Earthlings and won. That would make him probably around Nam level, because if Goku Roshi and Krillin hadn't fought, Nam probably would have won. Nam didn't use Ki, neither does Mr. Satan.

Well, see, you're doing the exact same thing you're criticizing. You're assuming his strength based on no empirical data. There's nothing to say either way that he would be stronger or weaker than someone like Namu. There's simply nothing there.

thank God someone just said that. Everyone and their mom have been using Nam as their only example as to why they think Satan is weak. There was an OPEN tournament for the strongest fighter....people showed up...and mr. satan beat the best that showed up. Not his fault Nam is off in some poor Village roasting in the sun.

[Heatth]

When Mr. Satan competed he faced off against the worlds greatest Earthlings and won. That would make him probably around Nam level, because if Goku Roshi and Krillin hadn't fought, Nam probably would have won. Nam didn't use Ki, neither does Mr. Satan.

Well, see, you're doing the exact same thing you're criticizing. You're assuming his strength based on no empirical data. There's nothing to say either way that he would be stronger or weaker than someone like Namu. There's simply nothing there.

thank God someone just said that. Everyone and their mom have been using Nam as their only example as to why they think Satan is weak. There was an OPEN tournament for the strongest fighter....people showed up...and mr. satan beat the best that showed up. Not his fault Nam is off in some poor Village roasting in the sun.

omegacwa point is there is no evidence Nam is stronger then Satan. I thanks him for that because I was thinking in doing the same while reading this thread.

Because, really, why are people insisting Satan is definitively weaker then these guys? As far we know Stan is stronger, since he won the Budokai. Yes, you can guaranty that, since Nam, Panputto and Chabba didn't attend the 24th. But, given our few informations, this is what we get. (I suppose you could say Panputto is stronger, since he broke a wall, but this is only valid for him, not Nam, Chabba or any other).

Btw, I am not saying Satan is stronger then this guys. I am just we can affirm either way.

[Savage68]

omegacwa point is there is no evidence Nam is stronger then Satan.

Nam's offense was considered to be powerful, to Goku, who was stronger than he was in his first appearance, who was then powerful enough to lift up a car with one arm and break three bricks (painlessly) only using a finger. So, yeah, Nam is stronger than Satan. Fact is, Satan has never demonstrated any 'superhuman' feats. Goku and his rivals always have.

[Heatth]

Nam's offense was considered to be powerful, to Goku, who was stronger than he was in his first appearance, who was then powerful enough to lift up a car with one arm and break three bricks (painlessly) only using a finger. So, yeah, Nam is stronger than Satan. Fact is, Satan has never demonstrated any 'superhuman' feats. Goku and his rivals always have.

Frankly, I would use early DB as a measure to anything. Didn't Goku climb a pole to the Moon early on and latter struggle to climb Karin (despite climbing a tower being considerably easier then climbing a pole)? Also, Goku break that brick with a finger and latter fight toes to toes with some "normal' people. Like Yamcha (Goku is stronger, but he consider Yamcha strong anyway). Also, theoretically, hitting with a finger should be more efficient then with your whole (all the strength in a single point) hand. It don't work because one would break the finger before breaking the brick, but Goku is pretty much indestructibly anyway. About that car, I believe Satan could pull that feat as well. It was a pretty small car.

[Gaffer Tape]

While I don't necessarily disagree with your logic, you do realize the Nyoibo extends on its own, right? He doesn't have to climb it. He didn't have to climb it to go the moon, and he didn't have to climb it to reach Kami's sanctuary in the heavenly realm (which was long after he first climbed Karin-to, by the way). He just had to hold on.

[Heatth]

While I don't necessarily disagree with your logic, you do realize the Nyoibo extends on its own, right? He doesn't have to climb it. He didn't have to climb it to go the moon, and he didn't have to climb it to reach Kami's sanctuary in the heavenly realm (which was long after he first climbed Karin-to, by the way). He just had to hold on.

I was basing myself in the actual pages of the manga. Go on and see, he is climbing it. He extends it first and then he climbs. The anime fix it by having he using the Nyoibo on traction.

[rereboy]

Nam's offense was considered to be powerful, to Goku, who was stronger than he was in his first appearance, who was then powerful enough to lift up a car with one arm and break three bricks (painlessly) only using a finger. So, yeah, Nam is stronger than Satan. Fact is, Satan has never demonstrated any 'superhuman' feats. Goku and his rivals always have.

Frankly, I would use early DB as a measure to anything. Didn't Goku climb a pole to the Moon early on and latter struggle to climb Karin (despite climbing a tower being considerably easier then climbing a pole)? Also, Goku break that brick with a finger and latter fight toes to toes with some "normal' people. Like Yamcha (Goku is stronger, but he consider Yamcha strong anyway). Also, theoretically, hitting with a finger should be more efficient then with your whole (all the strength in a single point) hand. It don't work because one would break the finger before breaking the brick, but Goku is pretty much indestructibly anyway. About that car, I believe Satan could pull that feat as well. It was a pretty small car.

You just have to look at the fight between Namu and Goku to assume that Namu is probably stronger than Mr. Satan. I mean, Namu was able to jump very high into the sky and really engage in a powerful fight with Goku.
Sure, there is nothing that really lets us know that he is stronger than Mr. Satan, but its just logic. It seems way more likely that Namu is stronger than Mr. Satan than the other way around.

[Heatth]

You just have to look at the fight between Namu and Goku to assume that Namu is probably stronger than Mr. Satan. I mean, Namu was able to jump very high into the sky and really engage in a powerful fight with Goku.
Sure, there is nothing that really lets us know that he is stronger than Mr. Satan, but its just logic. It seems way more likely that Namu is stronger than Mr. Satan than the other way around.

I am not arguing that. I can see why people believe Satan is stronger the Nam, even if it wasn't ever stated. Why I can't see is why people keep acting as if it was obvious that way. People frequently forget Satan is supposed to be very strong at normal level. Nam (or anyone else) own feats are not good for a comparison because we never got to see Satan actually fighting someone close to his level. Oh, and the bricks thing is just a joke. Even if took seriously it don't say anything about his fighting ability.

Btw, Mutenroshi stated Pamputto is very strong at a normal level, but he is not 'super human'. By that logic, Nam is probably in the same tier, as well as Chabba. And Satan have been officially told as the strongest of the normal people. Personally, I would say Satan was meant to be stronger then these guys. He doesn't appear to because Dragon Ball never was much consistent with power levels. It don't particularly matter anyway. By the end of the series (or even by Buu saga) he had relaxed at his own fame as hero that he probably got much weaker (he didn't even need to fight anymore1).

[dbgtFO]

Real word martial artists
Mr. Satan is a little bit better, than that as he did it with a karate chop, but the point still stands Nam >>>>>> Mr. Satan > Real world martial artist.
I think comparing him to Nam is pointless, as there is no proof of Nam competing in other tournaments, than the 21st. and Nam seems stronger, than Mark.
He is simply a very good martial artist, which is why the announcer claims the fights haven't been as good, as when Goku an Co. competed.

[Olympian]

Theres no real way to prvoe or disprove whether he is stronger or weaker than people THAT far down on the ladder.....theres just facts about the show that could lead to a conclusion.

Actually there is. Mr Satan only got his physical skills to make him worth his salt, and Yajirobe got him beat in that department by the mile. His cowardly nature comes in, but even Gokuh asked if Yajirobe would fight with them against the androids.

Take his sword and his physical power shades Mr Satan away. A guy who could kill Tambourine and take repeated punches from a pissed off Vegeta way back in the show is simply on another level.

My conclusion just looks towards Mr. Satan beating Yajirobe. [and ince someone mentioned it, Master Roshi beating Yajirobe as well.]

Roshi could beat Yajirobe because of one thing: his mastery with Ki and his long range attacks. Physically, Yajirobe was already on his tail by the Piccolo arc saga. Mr Satan however does not bring anything else to the table.

And it is certainly possible that after the Kami training, he became faster than Roshi as well, who stopped training in the Manga after the 22nd Budokai.

[Senzu_Bean]

I was basing myself in the actual pages of the manga. Go on and see, he is climbing it. He extends it first and then he climbs. The anime fix it by having he using the Nyoibo on traction.

I'm the only one not seeing Goku climbing in there?

Anyway, Goku isn't the kind of person to consider someone weak just because he is stronger than the person in question. He considered Yajirobe, Nam, etc. all strong people yet he believes Mr. Satan is a joke.

[dbgtFO]

I was basing myself in the actual pages of the manga. Go on and see, he is climbing it. He extends it first and then he climbs. The anime fix it by having he using the Nyoibo on traction.

I'm the only one not seeing Goku climbing in there?

Anyway, Goku isn't the kind of person to consider someone weak just because he is stronger than the person in question. He considered Yajirobe, Nam, etc. all strong people yet he believes Mr. Satan is a joke.

We don't know if Goku actually is stronger than those two, he is simply a better fighter, won against Nam by ringout and his fight with Yajirobe didn't have a conclusion.

[LeprikanGT]

MANY of those DB fights were ringouts....so the most you could say was that someone got the drop on someone else first. [Goku obviously being the strong one]

It's a real shame the only fighting we do is against the normal Spopovich in a flashback. Although...in Bio-Broly didn't that tiny Cougar guy invent BIO-warriors to defeat Mr. Satan instead of just finding regular humans. [don't hate just because it's from Bio-Broly.]

[Savage68]

Although...in Bio-Broly didn't that tiny Cougar guy invent BIO-warriors to defeat Mr. Satan instead of just finding regular humans.

Jaga? Yeah, he did that. Mr. Satan was scared out of his wits because of how outclassed he was.

[LeprikanGT]

All I was saying was that guy had to step it up from just regular strong guys to beat him.

I still think there is more to "Power" than just brute strength and speed; that's just one part of it, you have to look at the person as a whole. Yeah he's over cocky and plays it up for the cameras but when it comes down to it, he is an amazing person and put his life on the line more than once to save the Earth.

He had the POWER to convince Buu not to kill people anymore.
He had the POWER to get the Earth to give their energy to Goku.
He had the POWER to stall Kid Buu, and not totally get his ass handed to him.

To that extent, he has more power than the Z fighters.

[Olympian]

If you mean that he got unusual charisma and a reputation based on good marketing and a bit of cheating, then yeah, but then again, not one of the Z fighters cares about fame since the earlier days.

Is he brave, though? More than meets the eye, but he is exactly like Yajirobe in that regard. A coward on the surface and brave when there is no other way around it.