Is the SSJ powerup always the same?

[warrior72989]

Does becoming Super Saiyan automatically raise a Saiyan's power level to Goku's first transformation on Namek? Or is the transformation weaker since Goten and Trunks could do it without training to like 80,000 first.

[dbgtFO]

First off the 12/15 million is a mistranslation the official ones are 120/150 million, so don't listen to Myfavouritegames power level list.
2. I don't think the SSJ states is a set level, because then Goku couldn't have become stronger in his SSJ form. It is more or less a multiplier(50*base) if nothing else is stated by the increase. Some fans also believe it is a decreasing multiplier based on fact that Goku's Kiri as a SSJ against Yakon was 3000 and Yakon's kiri was 800, meaning Goku's base should be 60 if it was the 50* multiplier, which would be too low compared to Yakon.
One thing to point out though is we don't know how the Kiri levels relate to Scouter levels.
Lol you edited it, making my first point look ridiculous

[the_abberration]

Does becoming Super Saiyan automatically raise a Saiyan's power level to Goku's first transformation on Namek? Or is the transformation weaker since Goten and Trunks could do it without training to like 80,000 first.

I would say the latter is true, because Goten and Trunks don't train as intensively as Goku/Vegeta. Picture it like this. With Goku's training etc., his SSJ is like a large cup of soda filled to the brim. Goten and Trunks SSJ are like a medium cup filled to it's brim.

Although both cups are full, Goku's will still be bigger.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

No way of telling. I personally think there's a 50 times increase for every Super Saiyan when they transform. Oh, and Goten and Trunks were stronger than Goku on namek. There's the example of Kid Future Trunks, tho, who might've been weaker than Future Gohan's Base level. He surely wasn't on Goku's namek level.

[Kaboom]

Super Saiyan is a power multiplier. Whatever your base power is, your power as a Super Saiyan will be roughly 50 times as much. What we're not sure of, as far as I know, is if there's a minimum base power you need to reach before you're even capable of transforming.

I seem to recall something about Goku's 90,000 at his arrival on Namek being close to the limit, but I don't know if it was official or a dub line or a Pojo-ism or what.

[Herms]

I seem to recall something about Goku's 90,000 at his arrival on Namek being close to the limit, but I don't know if it was official or a dub line or a Pojo-ism or what.

The line in the manga is that during his training on the way to Namek he went beyond Saiyan limits.

[Kaboom]

The line in the manga is that during his training on the way to Namek he went beyond Saiyan limits.

Yeah, I remembered that one. What I can't seem to remember is whether or not crossing beyond those "Saiyan limits" is the prerequisite level of strength for becoming a Super Saiyan or not. Like, if Ginyu himself were to suddenly kill Kuririn, and Goku got mad over that, would he end up transforming right then and there, instead of later against Freeza...?

[SonGokuh]

I think the latter is true and I think the 50x multiplier never decreases. If it were so, then it would mean everyone's base forms would be crazy powerful and Goku wouldn't even need to go higher than FPSSJ because he could simply use Kaio-ken to multiply his already astounding base power. I've seen a supporter of the decreasing multiplier suggest that after the full potential of the SSJ form is released the multiplier dwindles to 5x a Saiyan's base. If this were the case then, base Goku during the Cell Games would only have needed to use Kaio-ken x10 to utterly vanquish Perfect Cell, which in my opinion, trivializes the power of a FPSSJ.

[Savage68]

Does becoming Super Saiyan automatically raise a Saiyan's power level to Goku's first transformation on Namek?

Nothing suggests that it does, and several things suggests otherwise. So, no.

[Dayspring]

The idea of SSJ constantly being a x50 multiplyer doesn't make sense with what we see in the manga, which may be why even Daizenshuu 7 had two (or three?) seperate definitions. In the battle power chart, it just says Goku's SSJ form had a strength equivalent to 50x his base. Kaioken x20 drained him completely. He even says this. 50 x 0 = 0, not 150 mil. However, if it simply adds 150 mil, you get the x50 comparison, since his base normal base strength 3 mil.

Later, we see SSJ-G2 and SSJ-G3 as being stronger. This can't be, if SSJ is a constant x50 multiplyer. It's also impossible to gain strength in SSJ form, which clearly isn't the case in the manga.

For a looooong time now, I see it as more similar to Freeza and Zarbon's transformations, meaning it adds an unknown strength as a starting point for its own stage. At the time Goku fought Namek, this unknown addition is merely greater than whatever his base normally is multiplyed by something over 40.

It also explains why Trunks and Goten are so overpowered.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The idea of SSJ constantly being a x50 multiplyer doesn't make sense with what we see in the manga, which may be why even Daizenshuu 7 had two (or three?) seperate definitions. In the battle power chart, it just says Goku's SSJ form had a strength equivalent to 50x his base. Kaioken x20 drained him completely. He even says this. 50 x 0 = 0, not 150 mil. However, if it simply adds 150 mil, you get the x50 comparison, since his base normal base strength 3 mil.

Later, we see SSJ-G2 and SSJ-G3 as being stronger. This can't be, if SSJ is a constant x50 multiplyer. It's also impossible to gain strength in SSJ form, which clearly isn't the case in the manga.

How is it "impossible to gain strength in SSj form"? I haven't seen that suggested in the manga anywhere. SSj-G2 and SSj-G3 are just ascended forms of Super Saiyan, of course they're going to be stronger than regular Super Saiyan.

[Terra-jin]

So SSj is x50 and SSj 2 is that x2 (x100 base). Does anyone know what's the multiplier for SSj grade 2, grade 3 and full power?

[Kaboom]

Does anyone know what's the multiplier for SSj grade 2, grade 3 and full power?

Personally, I see SSj Grades 2 and 3 as partly-successful attempts at "going beyond Super Saiyan" and tapping into Super Saiyan 2's power. I see Grade 2 as more or less halfway between SSj1 and SSj2 (75x base or so), while Grade 3 actually brings out almost all the same amount of power (about 90x base, maybe) as SSj2, but ultimately falls short because of its flaws.

Super Saiyan "Full Power" is never indicated within the story to be more or less mighty a transformation than regular ol' Super Saiyan. In fact, no distinction between them is made at all other than being relaxed and in total control of one's power. They are regarded and treated as the same stage, so FPSSj would likewise retain the same boost of roughly 50x the base form' level. Other aspects, which this thread isn't really about, would be responsible for the big gains granted by the stage.

This is the simplest and most straightforward way of explaining the forms that I've been able to come up with, but others' ideas may vary.

[Dayspring]

The idea of SSJ constantly being a x50 multiplyer doesn't make sense with what we see in the manga, which may be why even Daizenshuu 7 had two (or three?) seperate definitions. In the battle power chart, it just says Goku's SSJ form had a strength equivalent to 50x his base. Kaioken x20 drained him completely. He even says this. 50 x 0 = 0, not 150 mil. However, if it simply adds 150 mil, you get the x50 comparison, since his base normal base strength 3 mil.

Later, we see SSJ-G2 and SSJ-G3 as being stronger. This can't be, if SSJ is a constant x50 multiplyer. It's also impossible to gain strength in SSJ form, which clearly isn't the case in the manga.

How is it "impossible to gain strength in SSj form"? I haven't seen that suggested in the manga anywhere. SSj-G2 and SSj-G3 are just ascended forms of Super Saiyan, of course they're going to be stronger than regular Super Saiyan.

That's my point. If it's always a x50 multiplyer and absolutely nothing else, SSJ-G2 and SSJ-G3 can't be stronger (unless you feel it's like what Kaboom wrote). All the time, you'll see people saying stuff like they're "stronger x50 multiplyers", but that's like saying "more identical" if you ask me.

I also don't buy FP-SSJ as JUST being regular SSJ. It is, but not in the sense that the agitation that prevented them from focusing is now added to their strength. Sure, mental clarity is a BIG thing, but it's not that huge. To me, no longer having that agitation meant they could train longer in SSJ, while training longer and against stronger sparring partners meant they just got a hell of a lot stronger. With nothing but a x50 multiplyer, this can't be the case, as it would be a hell of a lot more efficient to train in base form once they mastered the stress of maintaining SSJ.

[Kaboom]

To me, no longer having that agitation meant they could train longer in SSJ, while training longer and against stronger sparring partners meant they just got a hell of a lot stronger.

That's how I explain it. Training as a Super Saiyan grants you much quicker and larger power gains than training in base. But when Super Saiyan is new and un-mastered, you can only do so for so long, and it's very tiring and inefficient, so you can't exploit it to its fullest.

Get rid of that restlessness and energy waste, and as a FPSSj you can train to your heart's content just as easily as in base, while still reaping those added benefits from being a Super Saiyan. In the end, you're still working with a regular 50x multiplier for the form, but your base and thus overall power has increased so much that you don't need any more than that.

Let's say Goku and Vegeta both start out at 5 million in base, and 250 million as Super Saiyans. Vegeta trains himself at the "standard rate" about up to 8 million and learns how to use Grade 2, which using my 75x puts him at 600 million. If he needs to, he can get up to a 720 million with Grade 3's 90x. Goku, however, sticks with Super Saiyan, but masters and trains with it, ultimately reaching a base power of 18 million and thus a whopping 900 million at Super Saiyan, putting Vegeta to shame.

So this allows for a very big jump in overall power, using a tried-and-true reliable transformation instead of a flawed attempt at a higher one. Ultimately though, like with any training method, one's body gets accustomed to this eventually, and the increases slow back down. Hence Goku and Gohan deciding that working themselves too hard any longer in the Room of Spirit and Time wasn't going to make a difference.

[Puto]

Yeah, the Saiyan probably does have to reach a certain power before he'll transform. Otherwise Gokû'd probably have turned Super back in the 22nd Budôkai with Kuririn's first death...

[Dayspring]

That's how I explain it. Training as a Super Saiyan grants you much quicker and larger power gains than training in base. But when Super Saiyan is new and un-mastered, you can only do so for so long, and it's very tiring and inefficient, so you can't exploit it to its fullest.

Get rid of that restlessness and energy waste, and as a FPSSj you can train to your heart's content just as easily as in base, while still reaping those added benefits from being a Super Saiyan.

I wasn't arguing what you said here, I was just arguing the idea others have mentioned in the past that all of FP-SSJ's strength comes from being able to draw on power reserves they couldn't before. Basically SSJ Goku = BP x50 + Energy x0 when he entered ROSAT, whereas FPSSJ Goku = BPx50 + Energy x1,000,000 or some equivalent logic. Combine the two and you get the strength difference we see.

That's hogwash, IMO, but it seems to be supported by those who feel 416 was Goku's max against Radditz, whereas the 900s BP wasn't his BP at all, so much as BP combined with energy. The idea is if SSJ Goku had a BP of 250 mil when he entered ROSAT, it's still 250 mil when he exited, but can now increase it to 750 mil through being able to increase his energy.

In the end, you're still working with a regular 50x multiplier for the form, but your base and thus overall power has increased so much that you don't need any more than that.

Let's say Goku and Vegeta both start out at 5 million in base, and 250 million as Super Saiyans. Vegeta trains himself at the "standard rate" about up to 8 million and learns how to use Grade 2, which using my 75x puts him at 600 million. If he needs to, he can get up to a 720 million with Grade 3's 90x. Goku, however, sticks with Super Saiyan, but masters and trains with it, ultimately reaching a base power of 18 million and thus a whopping 900 million at Super Saiyan, putting Vegeta to shame.

Here's where we differ. I just see SSJ as being an addition of a new range of power. Kind of like if Goku pre-SSJ had a range of 1 to 3,000,000, then SSJ added a range of 150,000,000-X to it. Thanks to not mastering SSJ, rather than use that full range, they only used the minimum of it (meaning the 150 mil). So if training while not mastered meant an increase of 100 mil, then their range was now "(150 mil to X) + 100 mil", but they still only used the 250 mil (meaning 150 mil + 100 mil).

To put this in comparison, if Goku's max against Radditz was 926, his base was 416 and his suppressed strength is 1, then SSJ's base would be 150 mil, whereas both the suppressed and max strengths are unuseable until they learn how to adapt to the stress.

From there, my thoughts on SSJ-G2 and SSJ-G3 are that people are finally tapping into that range, but improperly by pushing through the ever-present stress, which caused them to beef up in the process. I compare this to grimacing while lifting something heavy; your facial muscles aren't being used to lift the weight, but because you're stressed, you flex more than you need to.

FPSSJ would be getting used to that stress. This has three (or four) effects:
1) They can tap into their full strength without going SSJ-G3 to do it
2) They "relearn" how to suppress their strength (meaning instead of 150mil to X, they now do 1 to X)
2B) They conserve energy (like Goku's 5,000 when his max was 90,000), so they can train even longer
3) Because they can train longer and harder, they get substancially bigger gains than Vegeta and Trunks did.

So this allows for a very big jump in overall power, using a tried-and-true reliable transformation instead of a flawed attempt at a higher one. Ultimately though, like with any training method, one's body gets accustomed to this eventually, and the increases slow back down. Hence Goku and Gohan deciding that working themselves too hard any longer in the Room of Spirit and Time wasn't going to make a difference.

I both agree and disagree here. Like I said, I also feel FPSSJ means longer and more intense training bouts, but I don't see the who body getting accustomed and thus weaker. I just see the gains being made as getting weaker (but never approaching zero), but still sizeable because of comparison.

For example, if doing X with a BP of 10,000 gets you a gain of 1,000, then doing so with a BP of 100,000 may only get you a gain of of 500. However, being so much stronger, you can do it 10x as much, so your total gain is actually 5,000. Thus, people kept getting stronger and stronger even after Namek when they returned to training under 1G.