Cyborgs arc questions

[Senzu_Bean]

Can someone, please, answer me these questions:

1- Is it know how long passed between Gohan losing his arm and his death?

2- How does exactly Cell know about Super Saiyans? It does have the same information the cyborgs have, right?

3- Where is stated that #20 is stronger than #19?

4- Did Cell decreased in power after changed itself into larval state? If so how much stronger was it before?

I would like to say, please, only answer with information stated on the manga or on the guides. No speculation or personal opinions.

[Nazi Cola]

Didn't #17 say it'd been a year since he last fought Gohan? That's the only thing, I think, but it doesn't necessarily mean he lost his arm in that fight, so... I'm not sure. Sorry if that's not what you wanted.

As for 3, Gero states this after Goku goes SSj: "Even No.19 can handle power like this. And so, of course, can I." Seems to imply he's more powerful than #19 there, with the "even" in place.

I guess both of those would be speculation... Dammit.

EDIT: Aha! Daizenshuu 7, #20's bio.

This is Doctor Gero's form after he restructured himself into an artificial human to gain eternal life. Though he's stronger than No. 19, he's still considerably inferior to No. 17 and No. 18. Even so, Doctor Gero is truly a genius, familiar with everything from cutting-edge mechatronics to biotechnology.

[Piccolo Daimao]

1- I think in the manga, #17 says that it's been a year since they last fought, though it doesn't say whether or not that was the battle that Gohan lost his arm in.

2- I'm not quite sure about that one. When Cell explains his origin to Piccolo, he points out a spy robot there, collecting data (which would send data to the baby Cell that Trunks and Kuririn killed). So it would see Goku and Gohan as Super Saiyans.

3- I don't think anything is explicitly stated in the manga in regard to how #20's power relates to #19's.

EDIT: Nazi Cola just mentioned that Daizenshuu 7 states that #20 is stronger than #19. So there's your answer.

4- In Trunks' future, Cell says that Trunks couldn't beat #17 and #18, much less him. This implies that Cell is stronger than #17 and #18. Yet in the main timeline, he is defeated easily by Piccolo, whose power rivals #17 and #18's. And Cell himself says that he's weaker than the Artificial Humans. So, it looks like he did decrease in power after being in his larval state for 3 or 4 years.

[Senzu_Bean]

Great answers, guys. Appreciated.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

To answer the question regarding Gohan's arm--it's implied he did lose the arm in that battle. Nothing outright stating it, but implied in a subtle way.

When they're finished training, Trunks goes on to talk about Gohan's arm--believing that he "could've got it back if the senzu plant hadn't died out", which implies he couldn't have lost his arm too long ago. After that, Gohan says "Yeah. But what's gone is gone, right? I'm just glad I could escape at all."

Later when he finds the Androids, #17 goes on to say "I'm amazed you escaped alive after all that."

So, Gohan was glad he could escape after having the fight of his life, and #17 is impressed that Gohan managed to even escape from the battle in one piece.

Conclusion: Gohan lost his arm against the battle with the Androids a yr before his last battle with the Androids.

[Adamant]

2- How does exactly Cell know about Super Saiyans? It does have the same information the cyborgs have, right?

No. Gero's "let's spy on Goku and figure out how to defeat him" project and his "let's make my computer collect cells of strong warriors" project were separate. The first concluded with the data gathered from observing the battle with Vegeta, while the second lasted all the way up to Freeza's arrival on Earth.

[Senzu_Bean]

2- How does exactly Cell know about Super Saiyans? It does have the same information the cyborgs have, right?

No. Gero's "let's spy on Goku and figure out how to defeat him" project and his "let's make my computer collect cells of strong warriors" project were separate. The first concluded with the data gathered from observing the battle with Vegeta, while the second lasted all the way up to Freeza's arrival on Earth.

That still doesn't explain how Cell knows about the Super Saiyans though.

[Gamma]

2- How does exactly Cell know about Super Saiyans? It does have the same information the cyborgs have, right?

No. Gero's "let's spy on Goku and figure out how to defeat him" project and his "let's make my computer collect cells of strong warriors" project were separate. The first concluded with the data gathered from observing the battle with Vegeta, while the second lasted all the way up to Freeza's arrival on Earth.

That still doesn't explain how Cell knows about the Super Saiyans though.

Gero's bug only gathered data up to the battle against Vegeta, who was defeated by Kaioken Goku. (Hence why #19 and #20 try to differentiate between Kaioken and Super Saiyan when they see Goku transform into one).

Cell's bug gathered data up to the battle against Mecha Freeza, who was defeated by Super Saiyan Goku. Thus Cell knew about the Super Saiyan transformation.

[Senzu_Bean]

Cell's bug gathered data up to the battle against Mecha Freeza, who was defeated by Super Saiyan Goku. Thus Cell knew about the Super Saiyan transformation.

But didn't the bug only collected Cold and Freeza's cells? The bug only collects cells, not information. Otherwise both bugs would be essentially the same.

[Gamma]

Cell's bug gathered data up to the battle against Mecha Freeza, who was defeated by Super Saiyan Goku. Thus Cell knew about the Super Saiyan transformation.

But didn't the bug only collected Cold and Freeza's cells? The bug only collects cells, not information. Otherwise both bugs would be essentially the same.

Then there's only two possibilities. Either both bugs have the capability to record information, or that Cell forgot to mention that he had Super Saiyan Goku's cells in him as well.

[Herms]

Remember that Gero's computer was completely left in charge of Cell's development, so even if the cell-gathering robots collect information too, Gero (and by extension 17-19) wouldn't ever see that information.

[Terra-jin]

4- In Trunks' future, Cell says that Trunks couldn't beat #17 and #18, much less him. This implies that Cell is stronger than #17 and #18. Yet in the main timeline, he is defeated easily by Piccolo, whose power rivals #17 and #18's. And Cell himself says that he's weaker than the Artificial Humans. So, it looks like he did decrease in power after being in his larval state for 3 or 4 years.

The present androids are stronger than their future counterparts, though.

[Senzu_Bean]

4- In Trunks' future, Cell says that Trunks couldn't beat #17 and #18, much less him. This implies that Cell is stronger than #17 and #18. Yet in the main timeline, he is defeated easily by Piccolo, whose power rivals #17 and #18's. And Cell himself says that he's weaker than the Artificial Humans. So, it looks like he did decrease in power after being in his larval state for 3 or 4 years.

The present androids are stronger than their future counterparts, though.

Actually it isn't know how those cyborgs relate in power to the others from different time-lines.

[Terra-jin]

Actually it isn't know how those cyborgs relate in power to the others from different time-lines.

Isn't it? Trunks himself said that they were stronger, right?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Yeah, Trunks states it.

Most think it's not true because #17 had admitted to using less than half of his power to beat the crap outta Gohan.

[Kaboom]

Actually it isn't know how those cyborgs relate in power to the others from different time-lines.

Isn't it? Trunks himself said that they were stronger, right?

They were later stated to have been toying with him, keeping him around as a punching doll for their own amusement, just like they did with Gohan. Trunks in this case is misinformed about his own strength in comparison to that of "his" Androids, and his word can't be automatically taken as fact.

[Herms]

They were later stated to have been toying with him, keeping him around as a punching doll for their own amusement, just like they did with Gohan. Trunks in this case is misinformed about his own strength in comparison to that of "his" Androids, and his word can't be automatically taken as fact.

Only Gohan was actually stated to be treated in that way though, and only in their previous battle that left him one-armed. In the battle we actually see the start of in the manga, 17 simply kills him with what would presumably be 100% of his power or close to it, seeing as how Gohan was pretty confident in now being able to fight 17. Three years later Bulma says Trunks is stronger than Gohan was when he died (just not stronger enough to make a difference), so it seems like the androids would have had to use all or nearly all of their power to pummel him.

[Senzu_Bean]

Actually it isn't know how those cyborgs relate in power to the others from different time-lines.

Isn't it? Trunks himself said that they were stronger, right?

I'm referring to the cyborgs from Cell's timeline, those destroyed somewhat by Trunks.

[dbgtFO]

They were later stated to have been toying with him, keeping him around as a punching doll for their own amusement, just like they did with Gohan. Trunks in this case is misinformed about his own strength in comparison to that of "his" Androids, and his word can't be automatically taken as fact.

Only Gohan was actually stated to be treated in that way though, and only in their previous battle that left him one-armed. In the battle we actually see the start of in the manga, 17 simply kills him with what would presumably be 100% of his power or close to it, seeing as how Gohan was pretty confident in now being able to fight 17. Three years later Bulma says Trunks is stronger than Gohan was when he died (just not stronger enough to make a difference), so it seems like the androids would have had to use all or nearly all of their power to pummel him.

I still agree with what Senzu_Bean said, about us not having a clear indicator of alternate #17 & #18's strength, other than Trunks' statement.
We can only assume, that #17 actually went 100% against Gohan and Trunks, since we don't see the fights and we don't see how well the androids fared against them. They could still be holding back to a level, that was below that of the Main series timeline's androids in their battle against Vegeta & Co explaining Trunks' statement.
EDIT: Okay it seems Senzu didn't mean the androids of Trunks' future, but whatever, I will still hold on to my statement, about the androids we actually see then.

[Kaboom]

Only Gohan was actually stated to be treated in that way though, and only in their previous battle that left him one-armed.

The instance I'm referring to is much later, when Trunks returns to the future after the Cell Games and is about to kill them for reals. Here's how Viz worded it:

18: "Can I kill him? He's getting annoying."
17: "That'll make one less toy for us, but oh well. Do what you want, 18."

That's where the strong implication that they were messing with Trunks just like they did Gohan comes from. Now I don't know if the original wording is any different, but I sincerely doubt the two would consider Trunks a "toy for them" if he was ever even close to an actual threat.

Because other than him thinking so, there's no logical or given reason why they would be any less or more powerful. Plus, Cell (who is from a comparatively un-altered future) had data on both of them, which let him know how powerful he had to be in order to overcome and absorb them, AND he that Piccolo was also the only other one who could match them.

Labeling it as being "stated" was probably too ambitious of me. But in light of so many things like this I can't see any other explanation other than, "Trunks was misinformed, and the past and future Androids are actually equal" The fact that the Daizenshuu's writers evidently also took his word for it rather than looking a little more closely just makes it worse. If a random observant fan can notice all these things and put two and two together, then by all means the compilers for an official guidebook have no excuse.


EDIT: The Androids whom Trunks #3(?) shut down with the remotes are an even bigger mystery. Given that there's no apparent difference between any other sets of Androids, I wouldn't believe they're any weaker or stronger either.