Cyborgs arc questions

[jackjack]

That's where the strong implication that they were messing with Trunks just like they did Gohan comes from.

Gohan got his butt whooped so bad 17 wondered how he managed to survive, and even a much stronger Gohan was surpassed by Trunks.

Now I don't know if the original wording is any different, but I sincerely doubt the two would consider Trunks a "toy for them" if he was ever even close to an actual threat.

This argument falls apart when you think about the fact that a villain as arrogant as 17 would even consider Piccolo, his equal, a toy, let alone weaker opponents like Trunks.

[Herms]

That's where the strong implication that they were messing with Trunks just like they did Gohan comes from. Now I don't know if the original wording is any different, but I sincerely doubt the two would consider Trunks a "toy for them" if he was ever even close to an actual threat.

Yes they were toying with him by letting him live, but my point is that based on what we know it seems unlikely that they’d be able to beat him so easily without using their full power or close to it. That is, by this point they can only treat him as a toy by using their full strength. It goes like this:

--Gohan gets easily beaten by 17 at 50% power
--Gohan trains, getting much stronger, and is now fairly confident in being able to defeat both 17 and 18 (his reference point for 17 being what he doesn’t know is merely 17 at half power). The implies that he’s now substantially stronger than 17 at half power.
--Gohan confronts the androids again. 17 reveals he was only using half of his power, and kills Gohan.
--Trunks trains, and is now somewhat stronger than Gohan was. The androids easily beat him. Trunks tells Bulma that there’s a “huge” gap between them.

So the androids fought Trunks with a large power advantage, where Trunks was at this point slightly stronger than Gohan, who was probably substantially stronger than 17 at 50% power. All in all I don’t see how the androids could maintain such a large gap in power between them and Trunks without using 100% of their power or close to it. Meaning that Trunks would have a decent idea of their full strength.

Labeling it as being "stated" was probably too ambitious of me. But in light of so many things like this I can't see any other explanation other than, "Trunks was misinformed, and the past and future Androids are actually equal" The fact that the Daizenshuu's writers evidently also took his word for it rather than looking a little more closely just makes it worse. If a random observant fan can notice all these things and put two and two together, then by all means the compilers for an official guidebook have no excuse.

Frankly it just seems like you're annoyed they didn't go with your own bit of speculation. Trunks says they're stronger, and while it's never explained why, there's also nothing to actually contradict the idea that they are, so I see nothing wrong it taking his word as fact.

[Kaboom]

Then what about Cell, who is from a future not unlike Trunks', having accurate data on the past Androids' power?

Also, 17 said he previously fought at "not even half," not actually half.



EDIT: The way I figure, it might have been something like this.
- 17 beats Gohan using about... let's say, 35% of his power.
- Gohan trains a lot, has grown to about 50% of 17's power, which he thinks is strong enough.
- 17 reveals the truth, and uses at least about 75% to kill Gohan.
- Trunks gets stronger than Gohan, and at best can "hold his own" against the Androids, who are only operating at about 60% or so.
- Trunks travels to the past and witnesses the much-stronger Vegeta fighting 18 evenly at about 85%, but then 18 uses up to 100% to beat him.
- Later on after all has said and done, Trunks returns to the future. The Androids decide to use all or most of their full power to finish him off this time, but by now he's far stronger than them regardless.

[jackjack]

It just means Cell's become so much more powerful (as he states) to the point where even a stronger pair of cyborgs is still no match for him.

17 beats Gohan using about 35-40% of his power.

Then why not brag about using a third of his power or something?

Trunks gets stronger than Gohan, and "holds his own" against the Androids at about 60% or so.

Trunks didn't "hold his own" during his first encounter with the cyborgs.

Trunks tells Bulma that she was right, their gap is huge, and he never thought he could make it back alive. He later also tells Goku that they are far too powerful, it's hopeless, and he could barely escaped even when just fighting one of them. Then Trunks returns to his time and improves to the point where he can fight back (narrowing their huge gap). But even this Trunks, as Kami quotes, was raped by the present cyborgs, pretty effortlessly at that.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I find Trunks's assessment to be interesting. He mentions how they're "too strong" when he's talking to Goku; later mentions to Piccolo and the others that even though he was a Super Saiyan, he was "still powerless", and attests this to how powerful the Androids are; then after the battle with the Androids, he mentions how he "could put up a fight against his Androids", which seems odd. If I was powerless against someone, I don't think I would be putting up a fight against them.

Whatever.

[Kaboom]

Then why not brag about using a third of his power or something?

Because he has no reason to be specific, and that was just my reasonable guess. If you want to get super-technical, then "less than half" could mean anything from 1% to 49%. I wanted to give Gohan some credit.

Trunks didn't "hold his own" during his first encounter with the cyborgs.

So you agree with me that Trunks was never actually a challenge or threat against his own Androids?

I find Trunks' assessment to be interesting. He mentions how they're "too strong" when he's talking to Goku; later mentions to Piccolo and the others that even though he was a Super Saiyan, he was "still powerless", and attests this to how powerful the Androids are; then after the battle with the Androids, he mentions how he "could put up a fight against his Androids", which seems odd. If I was powerless against someone, I don't think I would be putting up a fight against them.

Whatever.

All the more reason to not simply take Trunks' word for these kinds of things.

[jackjack]

To 17, Trunks was never "a threat" considering his comment to Cell that he was playing with that Piccolo guy, yet he still went all out in that fight, didn't he?

If I was powerless against someone, I don't think I would be putting up a fight against them.

Trunks is still weaker even though he's strong enough to put up a fight (just "barely" in the original, if I'm not mistaken), or that could just be Trunks being as cautious as possible like when he tells Vegeta that they will lose for sure without waiting for Goku to recover first, implying they will stand a chance otherwise when all fighting together... Yet, Tien and Piccolo's quotes that it was hopeless after the duo trashed everyone the moment Trunks charged in like an idiot, that even a healthy Goku wouldn't have been able to do a thing if he were to join, and that they weren't even worth killing because they were too weak, all spell a different outcome than what Trunks originally intended how the fight would end up.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Isn't every fight the Jinzoningen have going to be considered them playing around with their opponents like toys? Unless the opponents are MUCH stronger than them (like Trunks when he finally killed 17 and 18), the Jinzoningen are destined to win due to them having infinite energy and stamina. Piccolo and 17 were practically equal, but after a few exchanges and a couple of wasted ki attacks, Piccolo was taking damage and losing energy and stamina while 17 was not (though Toriyama didn't show that very well, 17 looked like he had seen better days. lol).

So even if a fighter was a potential threat for the first 5 minutes of a fight, it would quickly turn to the Jinzoningen's advantage and the game would resume. This isn't even factoring in how difficult it would be to fight them both at once.

[dbgtFO]

To 17, Trunks was never "a threat" considering his comment to Cell that he was playing with that Piccolo guy, yet he still went all out in that fight, didn't he?

If I was powerless against someone, I don't think I would be putting up a fight against them.

Trunks is still weaker even though he's strong enough to put up a fight (just "barely" in the original, if I'm not mistaken), or that could just be Trunks being as cautious as possible like when he tells Vegeta that they will lose for sure without waiting for Goku to recover first, implying they will stand a chance otherwise when all fighting together... Yet, Tenshinhan and Piccolo's quotes that it was hopeless after the duo trashed everyone the moment Trunks charged in like an idiot, that even a healthy Goku wouldn't have been able to do a thing if he were to join, and that they weren't even worth killing because they were too weak, all spell a different outcome than what Trunks originally intended how the fight would end up.

And why do you think Trunks wanted Goku to be there so badly? He was told by his mother, his only parent, that keeping Goku alive would make a huge difference in the battle, even his teacher Gohan praised the long gone hero for his strength, even though the same teacher probably already surpassed his own father.

Sure Trunks saw the power and skill of SSJ Yardrat Goku, but he didn't know how much Goku improved during those 3 years, so he simply thought, that having Goku face #17 & #18, would make a huge difference, since he was told so by his mother.
It doesn't mean, that Goku would fare any better against the androids of Trunks' future, than he would against the present ones. Trunks just thinks, that's the case.

[Senzu_Bean]

"could put up a fight against his Androids"

Could put up a fight doesn't mean you can fight even with them. Trunks probably could defend himself and strike back some hits but he was still powerless. Not put up a fight is what the main cyborgs did to him, he was down in one or two hits without even be able to counter-attack.

Vegeta could put up a fight against Majin Buu but he was still powerless. Same case in here.

Then what about Cell, who is from a future not unlike Trunks', having accurate data on the past Androids' power?

Who is to say Cell's timeline cyborgs aren't as strong as the ones on the main timeline?

[Dayspring]

"could put up a fight against his Androids"

Could put up a fight doesn't mean you can fight even with them. Trunks probably could defend himself and strike back some hits but he was still powerless. Not put up a fight is what the main cyborgs did to him, he was down in one or two hits without even be able to counter-attack.

I agree. Goku put up a fight against Freeza without kaioken for quite a while. This was only because Freeza toyed with him, but it's still not a one-hit K.O. like it could have been.

In light of this, would it not imply that Trunks' androids were just toying with him, whereas the manga timeline was not? Their goal wasn't to play around with Trunks, it was to prevent him from interfering. How did Trunks phrase things in the Japanese version?

Then what about Cell, who is from a future not unlike Trunks', having accurate data on the past Androids' power?

Who is to say Cell's timeline cyborgs aren't as strong as the ones on the main timeline?

I don't follow. Isn't Cell's timeline the main timeline? (Main meaning "original" right?)

[Kaboom]

I don't follow. Isn't Cell's timeline the main timeline? (Main meaning "original" right?)

That's right. Cell's timeline was exactly the same as Trunks' up to when, instead of getting stronger in the past to defeat them, Trunks managed to deactivate the Androids with a remote. Sometime after, Cell killed Trunks and stole the time machine.

So even if there were any pre-determined reason why the future Androids would be weaker, then they would definitely also be so in that timeline, which was identical to Trunks' up to a certain point.

If Cell tried to face off against a pair of Androids which were stronger than the ones he had data on... he'd be in major trouble. Yet instead, his information about them and who could fight them was accurate, lending to his ultimate success in becoming Perfect in the past.

There's really no reason to assume the Androids' power differs between timelines other than Trunks seeming to think so. But as I've tried explaining before, Trunks is VERY fallible and suspect to error in this case.

[Perfect]

There's quite a few time lines before Cell's, actually. Considering Trunks had made multiple jumps prior to being killed. There can also be a multitude more if you believe that Cell was present in the time line Trunks left early in (Logic says no being that Trunks would have stayed).

[Senzu_Bean]

There's really no reason to assume the Androids' power differs between timelines other than Trunks seeming to think so.

Actually everything says their power differs. Not only in the original work but in the guides too. If you continue to insist in something that is completely illogical then okay, good, but stop saying your logic is more correct when it isn't.

And by "main" timeline I'm referring to exactly that, the main timeline. It isn't neither Trunks or Cell's timeline but the timeline one have been reading since the start. Considering in the actual story the #17 and #18 from Trunks's timeline are implied to be the exception of the rule and not the main cyborgs is pretty safe to assume the cyborgs from Cell's timeline were as strong as the main ones.

[Kaboom]

Actually everything says their power differs. Not only in the original work but in the guides too. If you continue to insist in something that is completely illogical then okay, good, but stop saying your logic is more correct when it isn't.

Here's a short list, in case you missed anything.

Support for the past Androids being mysteriously stronger:
- A confused Trunks thinks so.
- The almighty Daizenshuu takes his word for it.

Support for the Androids being the same power between timelines:
- Trunks, being unconscious during Gohan's last stand, never learns like Gohan did that the Androids were holding back so much power.
- The Androids label Trunks as a "toy" for them, strongly implying they've holding back their full power against him like they did with Gohan.
- Gero stopped observing the heroes after the battle with Vegeta, so nothing Trunks did to change the timeline would directly effect his work on any of the Androids.
- Cell is from a future practically identical to Trunks' and yet has accurate data regarding the Androids and their power, which holds true for the past Androids as well.
- Again, there is NO given, factual, infallible indicator within the story that there is any difference between the two alternate pairs of Androids.


That's an awful lot of points against it, so... go ahead. Tell me again that I'm being "illogical," simply because I recognize bullcrap when I see it. I welcome and encourage anyone to find me any piece of solid, factual evidence, no matter how tiny, to even suggest this. Show me this so-called "everything" that so clearly states there's an actual difference, beyond a single confused line coming from a character who's been beaten around and toyed with for half his life.

As a character, Trunks is very naive and prone to rash thinking, and as a whole his word on matters like this shouldn't be automatically taken as law or fact. In this particular case, he was misinformed. This becomes very obvious once you read anything beyond his one line on the matter, and I thought that just about any given member of this forum would be smart enough to do so. To know how to look a little deeper when something doesn't quite add up, rather than ignoring things in favor of just believing what they're told.

Then again, most of the truly smart members are probably avoiding this tired "argument" like the plague, which I'm beginning to consider doing myself. My desire to prevent misinformation just continues getting the best of me every time I see topics like this come up.

[Senzu_Bean]

I welcome and encourage anyone to find me any piece of solid, factual evidence, no matter how tiny, to even suggest this.

Again?! Gosh, this is worst than the Majin Buu power argument.

[dbgtFO]

I welcome and encourage anyone to find me any piece of solid, factual evidence, no matter how tiny, to even suggest this.

Again?! Gosh, this is worst than the Majin Buu power argument.

I agree with Kaboom. Why would such a small change suddenly make Dr. Gero lower 17 & 18's power even more, than it was before?
All there is to it, is that the "holy Daizenshuu" assumes that a very fallible character is right with his statement, that there is a difference in power between the 2 sets of androids. They are known to have some faulty information in there, which depressingly makes some fans take everything they state as fact, like Nappa only having a BP of 4000, which Senzu_ Bean took as fact, even though canon material implies it is higher than that.

[Senzu_Bean]

I welcome and encourage anyone to find me any piece of solid, factual evidence, no matter how tiny, to even suggest this.

Again?! Gosh, this is worst than the Majin Buu power argument.

I agree with Kaboom. Why would such a small change suddenly make Dr. Gero lower 17 & 18's power even more, than it was before?
All there is to it, is that the "holy Daizenshuu" assumes that a very fallible character is right with his statement, that there is a difference in power between the 2 sets of androids. They are known to have some faulty information in there, which depressingly makes some fans take everything they state as fact, like Nappa only having a BP of 4000, which Senzu_ Bean took as fact, even though canon material implies it is higher than that.

Thanks for remind me that I always take official statements over fan-made ideas, specially illogical fan-made ideas I mean.

And how couldn't I realized this from the beginning? This is, YET, another attempt to show that the fans are superior over official facts. How uncommon sight that is.

[dbgtFO]

Thanks for remind me that I always take official statements over fan-made ideas, specially illogical fan-made ideas I mean.

Not really, in that same thread you disagreed with the Daizenshuu, so yeah you are pretty much inconsistent with yourself. Just click the link in my previous post to see what I mean. Or if you're too lazy, here is your reply to Kaboom:

1. Goku's base battle power is 90,000, not 85,000.

That is stated on the Daizenshuu. The Daizenshuu suckz.

And how couldn't I realized this from the beginning? This is, YET, another attempt to show that the fans are superior over official facts. How uncommon sight that is.

It is another attempt at showing, that the Daizenshuus aren't correct by default, when they state things in there, that should correlate with the manga canon, yet they don't do that all the time.

[Senzu_Bean]

Not really, in that same thread you disagreed with the Daizenshuu, so yeah you are pretty much inconsistent with yourself.

Seriously?! I was making fun of those who say the Daizenshuu is wrong for no good reason. Did really anyone thought I was serious? Specially with the "suckz"?

It is another attempt at showing, that the Daizenshuus aren't correct by default, when they state things in there, that should correlate with the manga canon, yet they don't do that all the time.

Then I guess Vegeta is only close to 20,000 instead of 30,000 against Recoome?