Cyborgs arc questions

[VegettoEX]

No reason for the snark, folks. If you can't politely converse, please don't bother posting.

[dbgtFO]

No reason for the snark, folks. If you can't politely converse, please don't bother posting.

I apologize, if I was being snarky(also dirceted at Senzu_Bean!). I don't think I was though

Not really, in that same thread you disagreed with the Daizenshuu, so yeah you are pretty much inconsistent with yourself.

Seriously?! I was making fun of those who say the Daizenshuu is wrong for no good reason. Did really anyone thought I was serious? Specially with the "suckz"?

It was a pretty weird comment to make, but as we saw even the mod Kaboom thought it was serious, so why shouldn't I? It didn't look like you were being humorous though, so I had to take it as a serious comment.

It is another attempt at showing, that the Daizenshuus aren't correct by default, when they state things in there, that should correlate with the manga canon, yet they don't do that all the time.

Then I guess Vegeta is only close to 20,000 instead of 30,000 against Recoome?

Vegeta decided, that he was so weak, that he wouldn't bother going full power, and instead of measuring the BP of Vegeta, the scouters actually measured the BP of Vegeta's scream, because it was that powerfull
Well I didn't say they were wrong all the time, corrections like that, when there is an obvious inconsistency(some people think it isn't though) is welcomed(It was even put in the Kanzenban release!). But when they put a character in a league, he most certainly wasn't in, proven/implied by manga material, then they are not really consistent with what actually happened in the manga, and that's why I'm always a little sceptic about the Daizenshuu's statements.

[Terra-jin]

Support for the Androids being the same power between timelines:
1 - Trunks, being unconscious during Gohan's last stand, never learns like Gohan did that the Androids were holding back so much power.
2 - The Androids label Trunks as a "toy" for them, strongly implying they've holding back their full power against him like they did with Gohan.
3 - Gero stopped observing the heroes after the battle with Vegeta, so nothing Trunks did to change the timeline would directly effect his work on any of the Androids.
4 - Cell is from a future practically identical to Trunks' and yet has accurate data regarding the Androids and their power, which holds true for the past Androids as well.
5 - Again, there is NO given, factual, infallible indicator within the story that there is any difference between the two alternate pairs of Androids.

1 - True
2 - You're sceptical about Trunks' sayings, yet you immediately accept a villain's declaration of his own power as solid fact
3 - The cyborgs are definitely different in character, so Gero must've done something.
4 - Did Cell have accurate readings on the future androids, as well? Where is this implied?
5 - Beside their personality you mean, I presume

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

In regards to the Future Cell, he states the Spy Robots calculated how strong Trunks was--and that his power showed he was no match for the Androids. SInce he knows Trunks (Before leaving for the past) is weaker than the Androids, he had to have known how much power they had.

[dbgtFO]

Support for the Androids being the same power between timelines:
1 - Trunks, being unconscious during Gohan's last stand, never learns like Gohan did that the Androids were holding back so much power.
2 - The Androids label Trunks as a "toy" for them, strongly implying they've holding back their full power against him like they did with Gohan.
3 - Gero stopped observing the heroes after the battle with Vegeta, so nothing Trunks did to change the timeline would directly effect his work on any of the Androids.
4 - Cell is from a future practically identical to Trunks' and yet has accurate data regarding the Androids and their power, which holds true for the past Androids as well.
5 - Again, there is NO given, factual, infallible indicator within the story that there is any difference between the two alternate pairs of Androids.

1 - True
2 - You're sceptical about Trunks' sayings, yet you immediately accept a villain's declaration of his own power as solid fact
3 - The cyborgs are definitely different in character, so Gero must've done something.
4 - Did Cell have accurate readings on the future androids, as well? Where is this implied?
5 - Beside their personality you mean, I presume

3 - If you believe in that theory, that the androids of Trunks future was Bloodlusted when activated instead of being like the present ones, who at first only wanted to kill Goku, then yes Gero did something different. But I don't buy that, because the story happened a little differently, so instead of being outclassed so fast and finding love(18's supposed love towards Krillin). These androids started falling into their evil side, which every human has anyway, so the same could have happened in the present timeline.

[Dayspring]

4 - Cell is from a future practically identical to Trunks' and yet has accurate data regarding the Androids and their power, which holds true for the past Androids as well.

I have to play devil's advocate on this one: Cell could have outdated information here. Meaning his intel is for when they were activated in 767 and nothing beyond that. It's possible they'd get weaker over time for some unknown-to-us reason, so Cell just prepares for the worse case scenario.

But to play devil's... um... prosecutor(?), this doesn't mean it prooves the androids are different, either.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Just something I want to throw out here...if the Artificial Humans were indeed as strong as their future counterparts, what significance, if any, would that have on the story? Why even bother mentioning it? It seems like Trunks saying that these Artificial Humans are even stronger than his ones is supposed to have an impact on the readers', thinking, "These Artificial Humans are even stronger than the ones that Trunks couldn't defeat?! We really are screwed!!" It would demean the impact of these words if it turned out that they were actually at the same strength. By the way, this is only an out-universe answer, trying to explain how this statement would add to the drama and have an impact on the readers.

And yes, you do say that Gero stopped observing the heroes after the battle with Vegeta, so nothing Trunks (or even Cell) did to change the timeline would directly affect his work on the Artificial Humans. But this is time travel here. It's called a butterfly effect. Even the slightest action in the past can have an impact on other things, no matter how insignificant. This is evident in science fiction concerning time travel, where one action causes a ripple effect.

Cell does have data regarding the Artificial Humans and their power, and he knew how much power he needed to absorb to surpass them, but Cell does say he got carried away and absorbed "more power than he needed to". So, he could've absorbed all those humans, known that he'd surpassed them using his data on the future Artificial Humans, and still gotten more powerful than the Present Artificial Humans, since he absorbed more than he needed to. Anyway, I don't think that, once Cell reached a power that was over #17 and #18's, he would've stopped and tried to absorb them, because there still wouldn't be a big enough gap in their power. He probably absorbed an amount of power that he was sure would be considerably stronger than the future Artificial Humans before going after them, and then ended up being stronger than the present ones anyway.

I'm not ruling out your opinion that Trunks was wrong and the future Artificial Humans are as strong as the present ones. There's strong evidence behind the fact that Trunks was wrong, since, although he appears to be intelligent and cautious as a character, he's still quite naive and has been wrong about other stuff. I don't agree nor disagree with you on this matter.

3 - Gero stopped observing the heroes after the battle with Vegeta, so nothing Trunks did to change the timeline would directly effect his work on any of the Androids.

3 - The cyborgs are definitely different in character, so Gero must've done something.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here too. Who's to say #17 and #18 wouldn't have gone rampant in the present timeline if Goku was dead? In the present timeline, they actually had an objective: find Goku and kill him. In the future timeline, Goku was already dead, so they had no purpose other than just play around, which is what they did in the present timeline, only in a different manner. Their form of playing was causing mindless death and destruction, because it was just a game to them, just like it was a game to find and kill Goku in the present timeline.

[Dayspring]

Just something I want to throw out here...if the Artificial Humans were indeed as strong as their future counterparts, what significance, if any, would that have on the story? Why even bother mentioning it? It seems like Trunks saying that these Artificial Humans are even stronger than his ones is supposed to have an impact on the readers', thinking, "These Artificial Humans are even stronger than the ones that Trunks couldn't defeat?! We really are screwed!!" It would demean the impact of these words if it turned out that they were actually at the same strength. By the way, this is only an out-universe answer, trying to explain how this statement would add to the drama and have an impact on the readers.

I disagree, because they still were screwed. The androids are a greater threat than their future counterparts because they don't hold back. Finding out the reason they were a bigger threat is because they held back just makes things seem more hopeless in Trunks The Story, not take away from Dragonball.

[jackjack]

4 - Cell is from a future practically identical to Trunks' and yet has accurate data regarding the Androids and their power, which holds true for the past Androids as well.

I have to play devil's advocate on this one: Cell could have outdated information here. Meaning his intel is for when they were activated in 767 and nothing beyond that. It's possible they'd get weaker over time for some unknown-to-us reason, so Cell just prepares for the worse case scenario.

Doesn't really matter, considering Cell would want to surpass Piccolo as well.

If Cell tried to face off against a pair of Androids which were stronger than the ones he had data on... he'd be in major trouble.

No, he wouldn't; see above.