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[p123]

DBGT, if you never read Dragonball, or any of the guides and had no knowledge of Dragonball at all, and you read the Buu Arc. Answer these questions....


1) How big is the SSJ boost?
2) Who is stronger, Base Vegeta/Goku/Gohan or Piccolo?

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

「ば．．．バカな．．．！栽培マンの戦闘力は１２００だぞ．．．！！」
"I-impossible...! The Saibaiman's battle power is 1200...!!"
VIZ got that line wrong, with the "over" part.

[dbgtFO]

「ば．．．バカな．．．！栽培マンの戦闘力は１２００だぞ．．．！！」
"I-impossible...! The Saibaiman's battle power is 1200...!!"
VIZ got that line wrong, with the "over" part.

Thank you very much

DBGT, if you never read Dragonball, or any of the guides and had no knowledge of Dragonball at all, and you read the Buu Arc. Answer these questions....

Lol I already told you once not to call me DBGT, since I hate that fucking show, my username is dbgtFO, please use it instead of that other "name"

1) How big is the SSJ boost?
2) Who is stronger, Base Vegeta/Goku/Gohan or Piccolo?

1) At least 3,75 times considering Goku's boost from close to 800 up to 3000.
2) Unclear, but considering, that Dabra and Babidi think the base Saiyans are weaker, than Pui Pui, their statements are as reliable, as Kaioshin thinking they don't stand a chance against any of them, even though he earlier saw SSJ 2 Gohan.

[Herms]

I suppose at this point I gotta do my song and dance again about how the Saibaimen are said to "rival" Raditz (hitteki-suru), not actually equal him. Well, "equal" wouldn't be an especially bad translation of hitteki-suru if people didn't seem hell-bent on interpreting it as absolute mathematical equality. It just means that they're on the same general level. Videl, for instance, is said by Sharpner to "rival" Mister Satan (hitteki-suru again), even though Sharpner and everyone else but Gohan thought Satan was still stronger than her. Also, Toriyama wrote in his memo to the anime staff on the Saibaimen that they're "slightly inferior to Raditz".

I like those, with a few exceptions. What are them?

They're DB Carddass cards. "DP" stands for "destructive power". This DP system of card strength isn't especially based that much on the series. There is, for instance, a card of Vegetto with a DP of 3,600, then one of kid Boo with a DP of 3,900, then one of End-of-Z base Goku with a DP of 4,100.

[p123]

Well at least you can admit that. I see no reason for Freeza/Cell logic to muck up Buu logic.


Piccolo vs the Base Saiyans


Dabura's statements although a muddled mess imply base saiyans strength.


Gohan asks Piccolo to join the tournament, Goku asks Vegeta not to turn SSJ. If Piccolo was stronger, this would be the equivilant to Gohan asking Vegeta to lose, and we know that's not happening.



So as I can see it, it's not 100% clear but....


Base Saiyans 2
Piccolo 0



We see the boost is at least 5x based on the 5x increase of weights on King Kai's planet. The 3.75x boost logically was a suppressed boost.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Videl, for instance, is said by Sharpner to "rival" Mister Satan (hitteki-suru again), even though Sharpner and everyone else but Gohan thought Satan was still stronger than her. Also, Toriyama wrote in his memo to the anime staff on the Saibaimen that they're "slightly inferior to Raditz".

Good point about Videl, I never caught that before. But about Toriyama's memo, does he say "inferior in power" or anything? Because Nappa did say that the Saibaiman rivals Raditz "in terms of power only." Toriyama could've meant inferior in skill, or perhaps brains...

[p123]

They Rival in power alone, yet their skill and tactics , do not rival Raditz, is what I make of it.

[Herms]

But about Toriyama's memo, does he say "inferior in power" or anything? Because Nappa did say that the Saibaiman rivals Raditz "in terms of power only." Toriyama could've meant inferior in skill, or perhaps brains...

Inferior in battle power. The complete quote:

しかし戦闘力はかなり高くラディッツより少し劣る程度).
"But their battle power is considerably high, at a level slightly inferior to Raditz"

Here's a scan...which is pretty hard to read, but that's the best Hujio and I could manage. The only place where the memo is printed at remotely readable size is in the DBZ Anime Special magazine, and even there it's pretty small.

[p123]

Slightly inferior in power = Rivals in power

Rivals in power alone = Saibamen do not rival Raditz in non power attributes.

[dbgtFO]

I suppose at this point I gotta do my song and dance again about how the Saibaimen are said to "rival" Raditz (hitteki-suru), not actually equal him. Well, "equal" wouldn't be an especially bad translation of hitteki-suru if people didn't seem hell-bent on interpreting it as absolute mathematical equality. It just means that they're on the same general level. Videl, for instance, is said by Sharpner to "rival" Mister Satan (hitteki-suru again), even though Sharpner and everyone else but Gohan thought Satan was still stronger than her. Also, Toriyama wrote in his memo to the anime staff on the Saibaimen that they're "slightly inferior to Raditz".

If you take a step back, and really look at it, it's entirely possible for Raditz to be at 1500 compared to the Saibamen, if we for example start with Raditz initial reaction to Piccolo's Fight Power of 1330 concentrated into his fingertips, he is like "ZOMG! both of them can change their Fight Powers, as they want"!!

1. Most fans say, that the Daizenshuu was obviosly wrong in this instance because of his initial reaction to this high Fight Power, but wouldn't you have reacted the same way, if the guys you have been fighting at first started out more than 3 times weaker, than you, but somehow, they do the impossible, by increasing in strength, enough, so that it's comparable to your own power? It's only natural for him to be shocked, when such an ability is unknown to him.

2. After Piccolo fires his first Makankossapo against Raditz and it fails, Raditz goes on record complimenting his technique and says he would have died if it hit.
People, who again wants to contradict the Daizenshuu(and actually the V-Jump issue as well!) says that, it's impossible for him to die against an attack, that is weaker, than him, so he must be lower than 1330!!

I say, that his qoute pretty much implies, that it was all about the technique rather than power(you know just like Krillin's kienzan vs Second Suppression Freeza, it obviously didn't have a Fight Power exceeding 1 million), so saying higher power must mean resilience to every attack of lower power is a really flawed idea in my opinion.

3. And lastly we have Gohan at 1307 inflicting severe damage to Raditz, but this can't be Raditz is at 1500, he should have shrugged it off, like it was nothing, because lower Fight Power means you stand no chance!! ARRH Daizenshuu you are inconsistent again!!

.. If you look at it, Raditz did basically nothing to protect himself from being harmed, he aimply stood there and was shocked to read out Gohan's Fight Power and then got hit pretty hard, because of his spudity.
And who says everything is determined by battle power anyways? Raditz while having a ki level of 1500 could likely have a durability less, than that, considering all of the damage he received.
Just look at Nappa's hand against Gohan's masenko for example:
Nappa, according to the Daizenshuu has a FP of 4000.
Gohan's Masenko has a FP of 2800.
Nappa deflects it.
BUT THEN goes on to state, that it was a good attack, and that his hand is still sore!!
But how can that be?! Gohan's FP is less than Nappa, so it shouldn't have been such a big deal, yet it was a big deal (for a few seconds anyways), so I honestly can't understand these people, who constantly claim, that Raditz FP is inconsistent, when it doesn't necessarily has to be and Fight Powers don't make sense anyways...

[p123]

Yea I think Nappa was probably surface enough ki to be equvilant to about 3000 on a power scouter at the time of Gohan's Masenko.


Rival is power surely cannot be an 80% gap. Nothing implies Raditz to be 1500, if anything 1307,1330 are implied to be above Raditz own power level.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

But about Toriyama's memo, does he say "inferior in power" or anything? Because Nappa did say that the Saibaiman rivals Raditz "in terms of power only." Toriyama could've meant inferior in skill, or perhaps brains...

Inferior in battle power. The complete quote:

しかし戦闘力はかなり高くラディッツより少し劣る程度).
"But their battle power is considerably high, at a level slightly inferior to Raditz"

Here's a scan...which is pretty hard to read, but that's the best Hujio and I could manage. The only place where the memo is printed at remotely readable size is in the DBZ Anime Special magazine, and even there it's pretty small.

Thanks, that works! Yeah, it's readable enough, especially after you've already typed it up for me.

[dbgtFO]

if anything 1307,1330 are implied to be above Raditz own power level.

when?

[p123]

When Raditz dodges 1330 , he implies he could not take that head on , like Goku's 924. Also, Piccolo says he has another one, and Raditz clearly feels it will kill him.


A 1307 headbutt damages Raditz so much, that a 416 Goku is able to hold Raditz physically is a full nelson.

[dbgtFO]

When Raditz dodges 1330 , he implies he could not take that head on , like Goku's 924. Also, Piccolo says he has another one, and Raditz clearly feels it will kill him.

True, because of the technique!

A 1307 headbutt damages Raditz so much, that a 416 Goku is able to hold Raditz physically is a full nelson.

Doesn't mean he isn't 1500, since we aren't given any proper rules of how much difference is needed before you are able to tank a fully powered attack head on, when you are just standing around instead of actually trying to block...

[p123]

Raditz is fearful of the first 1330. Which is exactly why he dodged it. He knows 1330 would kill him.


Gohan greatly damages Raditz with 1307. 1307 logically would not greatly damage 1500. Could it hurt him? Maybe, but it's not going to be some huge damaging thing like it was.

Raditz at 1200, is 10x more logical than Raditz at 1500. It's more that you are trying to prove the Daiz right, moreso than really agreeing that the manga shows 1500.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

It's never said in the manga that only a higher battle power can damage somebody. There were never any rules laid out.

[p123]

Of course not. But neither is it implied that a much weaker power could cause massive damage to a fighter stronger than the attack.

[dbgtFO]

Of course not. But neither is it implied that a much weaker power could cause massive damage to a fighter stronger than the attack.

Umm Kienzan anybody??

[Kaboom]

An attack or attacker with a BP in the 1300's is perfectly capable of hurting someone at around 1500. Not to the degree that the other person can hurt them, but it's feasible nonetheless.

In the end, Gohan's headbutt certainly hurt Raditz but ultimately did little more than stun him for a moment. Raditz would certainly have learned that there's something special about Piccolo's attack when it blasted right through his armor.