The Jinzoningen Chronology makes no sense.

[Thanos]

Dr. Frapp/Dr. Gero created Jinzoningen #1-#8, #8 being his most successful thus far.

#9-#12 presumably were just most failures.

Now what I don't understand is, after Gero died, his computer fed from his hatred and created #13, #14 and #15. Does it make any sense that jinzoningen created after #16-#20 would be #13-#15? I guess we can assume that Gero skipped those numbers, but why? Does that make any sense? Why would his computer then decide to "fill the gap" instead of making #21-#23?

To make things worse, in Raging Blast 2, when fighting #13-#15 against Dr. Gero, Gero says, "I should've destroyed you long ago." or something along those lines.


Gaping black-hole-sized plot hole?

[Goku100xKamehameha]

Movie 7 is non-canon? and Dr.Frappe is a filler.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

He didn't skip them. Here's an excerpt from The History of Dr.Gero's Androids:

#9--#15: "All of them had one problem or another, but #13, #14 and #15 were pretty close to the final Android form."

Canonically, they were regarded as failures, but better than the previous failures, since they were close to being finished.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

@Turlast: Well, he's talking specifically about the plot of movie 7, which I don't remember well (only watched it once). Could it be that the computer simply finished #13-#15 after Gero died? If Dr. Gero had at least started working on them before he created #16, there's no plot hole.

Also, I wonder, did Toriyama mention #13-#15 on that title page to tie into movie 7? He did design all three Androids. Or maybe it was a coincidence. When did that movie premier, in relation to the date that the chapter was published?

[dbgtFO]

Also, I wonder, did Toriyama mention #13-#15 on that title page to tie into movie 7? He did design all three Androids. Or maybe it was a coincidence. When did that movie premier, in relation to the date that the chapter was published?

Manga chapter 367(where that title page is from) published the 13th of April 1992.
Movie 7 premiered 11th of July 1992 approximately 3 months after.

[the_abberration]

Now what I don't understand is, after Gero died, his computer fed from his hatred and created #13, #14 and #15. Does it make any sense that jinzoningen created after #16-#20 would be #13-#15? I guess we can assume that Gero skipped those numbers, but why?

#13-15 were created in numerical order. They just weren't put into use until after #17-18 rebelled. For example, you buy a 1957 Chevy and a 2009 Chevy. You put the 1957 in the garage and drive around in the 2009. You decide to sell the 2009 and start driving the 1957. The 1957 was built before the 2009, but you end up using it after the later model.

[Herms]

Could it be that the computer simply finished #13-#15 after Gero died? If Dr. Gero had at least started working on them before he created #16, there's no plot hole.

Pretty sure they're shown already built, lying around inside those android-holding capsules down in the basement of Gero's laboratory when Gero dies.

[Senzu_Bean]

And General Red is the ninth Artificial Human... according to DBO.

[dragonballzgtfighter]

Man if they wanted to make more money they could release specials and movies involving Androids #1 to #7, #9 to #12.

Puns could be added for the Androids like #1 to #7. Seven days a week, perhaps designed to look like Gods.

#9 to #12 like four horsemen design.

[Hellspawn28]

From what I can remember in the manga it was stated that #9-15 where failed prototypes, and Dr. Frappe does not exist in the manga neither. Dr. Frappe was created years before Doctor Gero was created, so I'm pretty sure Frappe was later retcon in the story in the anime.

Raging Blast 2, when fighting #13-#15 against Dr. Gero, Gero says, "I should've destroyed you long ago." or something along those lines.

I'm pretty sure anything happens in the video games are not canon, and should be used.

[CODii]

The important thing to remember here is that the movies are not canon. They really do not fit into the continuity of the manga/anime. Take them for the fun side stories that they are and don't worry too much about where they fit into the continuity of the series.

[p123]

Agreed. Trying to fit movies in with canon storyline is a complete waste of time. If AT himself created the movies, well then surely it would be a fun activity to discuss how they would fit, but if AT created them, I'm sure he would use some sort of logical approach to the movie characters, which TOEI does not. I do enjoy the characters though. I'm sure with some slight improvements that IMO AT would have take advantage of, he could of made some awesome movies.


The main villian in all of the movies that could somehow make some sort of sense is Cooler. King Cold pretty much appeared out of thin air in the manga, and Cooler could have as well. Sure, you would have some explaining to do, but there could be something there. A transformation to boot would be awesome and probably accepted as well. Gotta come up with something to explain his existence, and why he wasn't there for Freeza/King Cold vs Trunks issue.


Broly, hmm, he's awesome, but I mean his entire existence pretty much goes against everything Goku is. I don't know really how to shape this guy , and especially with that god awful form which is just a lazy man's super USSJ form, nah. He really doesn't fit in well.

Your best best would probably going into a prelude with Broly being the first SSJ or something. Eh, I don't know. Your going to have to get real creative to explain Broly's existence. He just doesn't fit with the canon mindset.


Bojack is a big no. Being locked away in the Kai's planet? I'll pass.

Janemba? Meh... Everyone escaping hell? Meh, they are all souls, how could they get their bodies back?

Hirdugam , No...


So IMO, Cooler definitley has some real value, and you have a good oppurtunity to make him work. Broly like I said is a tough one, and the other ones are pretty ridicolous.


IMO movies would have been better suited to do prequels and such. Go back in Freeza early days, or things of that nature, history of trunks, bardock special, those things weren't bad. Forcing yourself to make these super villians who have to dwarf the super villians in the canon storyline is just too big of a stretch IMO.

[CODii]

If they ever made any more movies I would really like to see more from the heyday of the Saiyan race. I think they have a really fascinating culture that could really be expanded upon.
Another thing I think would be really interesting would be going into depth about what Vegeta did between the time when Planet Vegeta was destroyed and his arrival on Earth. There's almost thirty years that could easily be filled in without affecting continuity.

[p123]

Agreed. The prequel route would be the best way. They could have their story done in full, and not effect the canon timeline/storyline.

I am actually most interested in the saiyans pre Freeza, and Freeza's encounters pre destruction of Planet Vegeta.

Perhaps encounters with Freeza/KingCold/Cooler and why no one else seems to be aware of King Cold. I mean for Vegeta to not be aware of King Cold, Cold must be somewhere distant or something.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Cold's Daizenshuu 7 bio claims that he ran the organization from the shadows, and only his family and personal henchmen knew of his existence.

[p123]

Nice, see that's the kind of stuff the Daiz is made for IMO. Cool things that you would have no idea what to make of the situation.

[Dayspring]

A neat coincidence is that this movie can easily be canon in the timeline visited by the Trunks who Cell stole a time machine from. The activation process for the three androids would commence in timelines visited by Trunks, but halted in timelines also visited by Cell (since Trunks and Krillin blew up the basement).

[p123]

I don't think the Trunks special or the Bardock special should be considered canon.

Sure they share certain similar things. But it's still not in the manga. If it's not in the manga, it's not true canon.


As we can see in the Trunks special, they change the timing of Trunks turning SSJ for dramatic effect. I see no reason why TOEI's need to make the plot exciting should effect the manga.

Same with Bardock's power, this is another thing that the movie created , that is not neccesarily suggested in the manga.


Canon wise, the manga is it, regardless of how closely the specials or movies try to make it, it simply is not canon at the end of the day.

If AT really like the story that much, he could have easily included it into the manga, seeing as he didn't feel the need to, I don't think we should feel the need to canonize non canon stories, whether or not they have similarites to the manga.

[Kaboom]

That... has nothing to do with the topic...

[p123]

My bad, my brain is fried from the other topic. I am literally in shock over here. Let me re read the issue at hand and I will edit my post appropriately.