Killi System

[p123]

Hey guys I came across some stuff.

From what I can tell the meter reads from right to left. As you can see Goku's 3,000 killi reading is comparable to a car that is going full blast and the speedomoter is shaking although hitting the end of the speedomater.

Later we see after the fight, Badibi is looking at the meter, Goku is powered down, and even if the meter isn't reading anyone, and is off, it shouldn't matter. The needle is all the way to the right.


Thus proving, that the meter at least that one, goes from left to right, and the 3,000 killi meter is the limit or at least close to the limit the meter can read.

[Super Vegito]

So what's the question again?

[Fox666]

Hmm, it's not really point at the maximum.



In the Kiri meter that Babidi was holding there are 12 dots (11 + 1 presumably hidden by Babidi's finger). Goku's Kiri is half-way after the 10th dot.

Also Yamu's meter has 18 dots. I think that's it's reasonable to think that it's also a Kiri meter. It reads 13 and a little from Gohan SSJ2.

I find the numbers interesting:
- Babidi's meter: 12 dots
- Yamu's meter: 18 dots
- Goku SSJ: 10 dots
- Gohan SSJ2: 13 dots

I find it interesting that there is a correlation beetween Babidi and Yamu meters (12 - 18). Also Goku has a very rounded value, 3,000 - while the meter put 10 dots. Based on the picture it would be 1 dot = 300 Kiri.

If you take these drawing serious it would mean that Gohan SSJ2 has around 4,000 Kiri.


But of course these dots could mean anything and it's just my imagination. Toriyama did not cared about it while drawing.

[B]

How can we correlate killis to combat levelz? I've always wondered.

[Fox666]

There is no confirmed information about it...


Hmm, the numbers 3,000 and 800 have a special meaning in japanese language. They are related to high values. It's similar to how Bible uses the number 40.

The Kiri system can not mean anything, are random choosen numbers and Toriyama did not care about the proportion beetween Yakon and Goku.


You can deal the proportion as a very rounded value, like 1 Kiri = 1.000.000 "Scouter units". This would put the SSJFP transformation increasing 20 times the SSJ power which makes sense. It would also put Yakon at 800 million.

Of course most people don't like the idea that Goku would be at 3-60 million (how does SSJFP influence base power...?) while Yakon is 800 million.


While particulary I am not a fan of this theory, I have heard someone saying Goku wasn't using all of his power as a SSJFP. So let's say his "lowered" power equal to his SSJ form during the Freeza saga, it would have been 150 million, that would makes 1 Kiri = 50,000 and Yakon equal to 40,000,000 (lower than Freeza).


Personaly I like to think it equal to 1 million. IF Toriyama would have wondered about it, he would have done 1 Kiri = 1 million because it's the most easy to calculate measure. I also don't think it's a coincidence that the Daizenshuu states that the maximum power Goku acquired was 3,000,000 and he has 3,000 Kiri. Of course that not everyone else likes this because Goku managed to dodge some attacks from Yakon... But I don't really think that at this point (Buu arc) Toriyama was really being carefull about the base form and SSJ power correlation.

[painfuldeath]

Interesting argument Fox...

Personally, I seriously doubt Toriyama ever really thought about putting numbers to transformations. It seems to me that after the Frieza saga all power readings are pretty much irrelevant. My reasoning here is that during Goku and Frieza's fight, there is massive destruction of the surrounding area. At this stage, either fighter could easily wreck a planet. Later on during the Cell saga, while the area where the fight takes place is completely wrecked, it's nowhere near as severe as during the Frieza saga and the characters are supposedly much more powerful. Therefore, I think that putting numbers to powers is futile since theres no real way to correspond them outside of the Daizenshuu. For this reason I don't think Toriyama thought about how strong the characters were numerically, its more an aproximation of x is stronger than y which is stronger than z then a numerical expression.

The Killi system could mean anything since we only have 2 accurate readings. If I were to put numbers to things I'd say that 1 Killi is closer to 2000 units in regular readings. The reasoning here comes from Babidi's statement that 300 killis are necessary to destroy a planet. Considering that Frieza destroyed planet Vegeta on his first form at about 500,000 units; 500,000 / 300 ~= 1667 units.

Still, I don't think it really means anything significant.

[dbgtFO]

painfuldeath is basically right.
Toriyama most likely just gave them those specific numbers to show, that SSJ Goku and Yakon were miles apart.

If I was to convert Kili's to the Battle/Fight Power system, I would say 1 Kili equals 100.000 Fight Power units.
Since I don't buy base Saiyans being godly compared to Piccolo, because of Dabra and Babidi having no idea, what they are talking about.

It would mean that Yakon at 800 Kilis has a FP of 80.000.000.
While SSJ Goku has a FP of 300.000.000.
As you can see I go with the notion, that Goku was nowhere near his full power, but only using a fraction of it to show he could produce light.

@Fox666, why don't you post, the last scan we see of the Kili meter? You know that one scan, after Yakon has exploded and you see the meter lying on the floor, where the pin was on the far right of the meter?
It could perhaps give us a little insight on how Goku's SSJ 2 burst compares to everyone else.

[hleV]

If you take these drawing serious it would mean that Gohan SSJ2 has around 4,000 Kiri.

Which would put Super Saiyan 2 Gohan on par with Dabra. Had to bring that up!

[Bussani]

I still like the idea that kiri works on some sort of logarithmic scale. It makes it harder to compare to battle powers, which is good because Toriyama likely didn't put any thought into it. It could also handwave Goku's seemingly small increase when he goes Super Saiyan, if that bothers you for whatever reason.

[Herms]

While we're at it, I'll point out that 'kiri' is probably a pun on riki, "power".

[Senzu_Bean]

Just note Yamu's device went completely out of control when it read Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 power. It doesn't stop on the 13th dot but actually spins uncontrolled.

Although the one used by Babidi seems to be a higher or larger model and since we're at it from dot to dot on Babidi's device correlates to 250 kiri.

[Fox666]

Personally, I seriously doubt Toriyama ever really thought about putting numbers to transformations.

Actually he did! The correlation beetween Kaio-ken, SSJ and Oozaru is very interesting. It's a pretty clean mathematic.

But after the Freeza saga anything regarding that is lost.

It seems to me that after the Freeza saga all power readings are pretty much irrelevant. My reasoning here is that during Goku and Freeza's fight, there is massive destruction of the surrounding area. At this stage, either fighter could easily wreck a planet. Later on during the Cell saga, while the area where the fight takes place is completely wrecked, it's nowhere near as severe as during the Freeza saga and the characters are supposedly much more powerful. Therefore, I think that putting numbers to powers is futile since theres no real way to correspond them outside of the Daizenshuu. For this reason I don't think Toriyama thought about how strong the characters were numerically, its more an aproximation of x is stronger than y which is stronger than z then a numerical expression.

Certainly there is some plot holes about that. But Toriyama is still some good work when Cell said he would destroy the whole solar system.

The Killi system could mean anything since we only have 2 accurate readings. If I were to put numbers to things I'd say that 1 Killi is closer to 2000 units in regular readings. The reasoning here comes from Babidi's statement that 300 killis are necessary to destroy a planet. Considering that Freeza destroyed planet Vegeta on his first form at about 500,000 units; 500,000 / 300 ~= 1667 units.

Still, I don't think it really means anything significant.

Actually that is a filler. In the filler Dabura also said that not even 4,000 Kiri would defeat him.

If Goku has 3,000 Kiri, certainly 1 Kiri is enough to destroy planets.

[dbgtFO]

Just note Yamu's device went completely out of control when it read Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 power. It doesn't stop on the 13th dot but actually spins uncontrolled.

Although the one used by Babidi seems to be a higher or larger model and since we're at it from dot to dot on Babidi's device correlates to 250 kiri.

To me it seems like the pin, when measuring powers goes from left to right and not the other way around, since the lines of movement are at the left of the pin and not the right of it.

[Senzu_Bean]

Just note Yamu's device went completely out of control when it read Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 power. It doesn't stop on the 13th dot but actually spins uncontrolled.

Although the one used by Babidi seems to be a higher or larger model and since we're at it from dot to dot on Babidi's device correlates to 250 kiri.

To me it seems like the pin, when measuring powers goes from left to right and not the other way around, since the lines of movement are at the left of the pin and not the right of it.

I didn't say that isn't true. It probably is since Babidi's device has the pin towards the right when laying down. Although someone should check the anime version.

[Fox666]

If you take these drawing serious it would mean that Gohan SSJ2 has around 4,000 Kiri.

Which would put Super Saiyan 2 Gohan on par with Dabra. Had to bring that up!

Perhaps that's from were they took that number from?

I still like the idea that kiri works on some sort of logarithmic scale. It makes it harder to compare to battle powers, which is good because Toriyama likely didn't put any thought into it. It could also handwave Goku's seemingly small increase when he goes Super Saiyan, if that bothers you for whatever reason.

I think that's near impossible. Toriyama wouldn't have come with such obscure idea. For the same reason I don't believe that Goku would not be using all of his power.

Or the proportion beetween Goku and Yakon is perfect... or Toriyama did not mind about the proportion of 3,000 and 800, in other words Kiri system is meaningless. I see these as the only possibilities.

@Fox666, why don't you post, the last scan we see of the Kili meter? You know that one scan, after Yakon has exploded and you see the meter lying on the floor, where the pin was on the far right of the meter?
It could perhaps give us a little insight on how Goku's SSJ 2 burst compares to everyone else.

The Kiri system is not being used, the meter is at zero. =/

[Senzu_Bean]

If you take these drawing serious it would mean that Gohan SSJ2 has around 4,000 Kiri.

Which would put Super Saiyan 2 Gohan on par with Dabra. Had to bring that up!

Perhaps that's from were they took that number from?

The pin is spinning like crazy. It isn't stopped at the 13th dot. I wonder if from dot to dot it also correspond to 250 kiri like Babidi's device.

... Kiri system is meaningless.

It is simple the equivalent of battle power of Buu's arc. So I agree.

[dbgtFO]

@Fox666, why don't you post, the last scan we see of the Kili meter? You know that one scan, after Yakon has exploded and you see the meter lying on the floor, where the pin was on the far right of the meter?
It could perhaps give us a little insight on how Goku's SSJ 2 burst compares to everyone else.

The Kiri system is not being used, the meter is at zero. =/

Hmm okay, but to me it seemed like, that the pin was moving from left to right, when measuring bigger powers.
This would mean that if we say there are 11 dots, then 1 dot = 2000 Kiri, since Goku at 3000 lands in between the first and second dot.
The highest it would be able to measure would be 22.000 Kiri.you should know that number...
Which would mean, that Goku's SSJ 2 burst was probably above that since it couldn't go any further.
That would mean SSJ 2 Goku in a burst of power was more than 7 times stronger, than himself as a SSJ! Which is why I always consider the 3000 value, as Goku not going full power.

But it's true, that Toriyama didn't go so much into detail with this...

[Senzu_Bean]

The pin is definitely moving from right to left. The anime confirms it too.

[p123]

Wow a ton of posts. Good reading...

Yea, Dabura 4,000 killi and 300 killi to blow up a planet are non canon.

Yamu's power meter is spinning non stop.

Also, look at the hash marks on Goku's reading. It appears as if he filled it all the way and it was just hitting it back and forth much like when you rev and engine in which you can't read the RPMs anymore.

I think Killi system is implying a small boost.

And I do believe that Yakon 800 = 800 million, Goku 3,000 killi = 3,000 million or 3 billion.


Also I have Dabura at about 4,750 killi just for your information. I think Goku is suppressed by a good margin.

[Bussani]

I think that's near impossible. Toriyama wouldn't have come with such obscure idea.

I didn't say he came up with it. In fact, I said the opposite--that he probably didn't care if it made sense, particularly not when compared to battle powers, thus the idea of it being something non-linear actually ends up fitting kind of well.