Kaioshin

[Savage68]

And?

And... I don't take it to heart, because it isn't conclusive. Or at least, a prior scene is more conclusive in addition to a proceeding guide entry being very conclusive.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

There wouldn't even be a gag, if Kibito was strong enough to lift the sword. That's why we don't see base Goku dropping the sword like a goof, because he had the physical strength to lift it.

[p123]

How is this a gag scene? It has a funny sense of humor, but it's not what I would call a gag scene.


I would call Bulma shooting Roshi/Kuririn and leaving holes in there body a gag scene. Logically Roshi/Kuririn should be dead. But we know this isn't supposed to be taken seriously.


Even Super Buu drinking a milk shake is more of a humor scene that a gag scene. Gotenks states that Super Buu has the same humor as him. It's more like kids just horsing around than anything.

So humor scenes =/= gag scenes IMO.

[Savage68]

Why are people still talking about gags?

[p123]

deepthroat.

[Nippolyte]

Concerning Kibito's strength, we do know that Dabura considered him trash

It's kind of hard to determine how powerful the Supreme Kai is. I would say he's weaker than Dabura based on how he's so scared of him. In terms of power though, I think he's physically weak, and is far more superior in magic techniques, which explains why he could immobilize Gohan. Sort of like how Babidi is physically weak but has magic that's superior to Spopovich (he blew him up), anyone with evil in their heart, and even Majin Buu (he could seal him up). Supreme Kai definitely doesn't seem like a physical fighter.

It's funny how he goes from being a mysterious omnipotent being who looks like he can even give Perfect Cell a run for his money, to an inept bungling coward who makes you question if he can really defeat Frieza in one blow or not

[Godo]

Why are people still talking about gags?

So Mr. Satan is stronger than Kuririn?
I mean, a light kick of Cell's almost killed Kuririn.
A light slap of Cell's left Mr. Satan with a mere wound on his forehead.

It was a gag and shouldn't be taken seriously, just as that scene with Kibito shouldn't be taken seriously.

[dbgtFO]

It was a gag and shouldn't be taken seriously, just as that scene with Kibito shouldn't be taken seriously.

There wouldn't even be a gag, if Kibito was strong enough to lift the sword. That's why we don't see base Goku dropping the sword like a goof, because he had the physical strength to lift it.

And about Mr. Satan compared to Krillin.
Cell simply held enough back, so Mr. Satan was able to survive, Piccolo even notes this as fact.
But when kicking Krillin, he held less back, but it would still be considered a light kick from him, since it's far from being the full force of his kick.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Why are people still talking about gags?

Weren't you saying that the scene was inconclusive, only because it was a "gag scene"? Or did I miss something?

[p123]

These aren't even gag scenes. A extremely weak fighter attemps to fight an extremely strong fighter. He gets easily beaten.

That's all that's shown.

Look, AT doesn't sit there with a freaking calculator and try to determine what amount of effort Cell used on Kuririn and what amount of effort he used on Hercule, and then calculate Kuririn vs Hercule.

Stop thinking this! Scenese are meant to be taken for the moment. AT isn't going over the manga doing calculations and trying to make every single freaking scene correlate.

You guys are looking way too deep into certain issues. AT is not using a calculator!

[Senzu_Bean]

I'm seeing a lot of repetitive posts in here. Look:

His battle power is considerably high, enough to give Gohan a difficult fight as long as he wasn't a Super Saiyan.

Nothing says he is equal to Gohan. Period!

[Savage68]

Why are people still talking about gags?

So Mr. Satan is stronger than Kuririn?
I mean, a light kick of Cell's almost killed Kuririn.
A light slap of Cell's left Mr. Satan with a mere wound on his forehead.

It was a gag and shouldn't be taken seriously, just as that scene with Kibito shouldn't be taken seriously.

I think you have my position mixed up.

Weren't you saying that the scene was inconclusive, only because it was a "gag scene"?

No, I said that I was "almost entirely sure" it was a gag scene. Then, when you took umbrage to that, I settled with finding it to be "inconclusive," because two other sources dictate the contrary.

[UMMX]

You guys are crazy!!! Kaioshin is one of the weakest fighters in the end of the anime. All he has is magic spells and teleporting. Elder Supreme Kai even said it in the TV show that Kaioshin could take Freeza on after he fused. SO that means that Android 18 could beat the shit out of him.

[dbgtFO]

I'm seeing a lot of repetitive posts in here. Look:

His battle power is considerably high, enough to give Gohan a difficult fight as long as he wasn't a Super Saiyan.

Nothing says he is equal to Gohan. Period!

Well since we go by the Daizenshuu, Nappa at 4000 was also enough to give Goku a difficult fight, Goku even made a comment about it, so Kibito could just as likely be ½ of Gohan's power and still be a challenge, since Battle Powers don't make sense anyways.

Piccolo told Gohan not to underestimate Kibito, and that he should go SSJ to be able to defeat him. So we have two characters who thinks that SSJ is the only way of defeating Kibito, and then we have you.

Please show me a scan, where Piccolo says, that Gohan HAS to use SSJ to win.

[Godo]

I think you have my position mixed up.

Yup, it appears that way.
Sorry.

Please show me a scan, where Piccolo says, that Gohan HAS to use SSJ to win.

I don't get where you get that he HAD to go SSJ from my post. Piccolo sensed Kibito's power, and told that Gohan should go SSJ, since it would otherwise be troublesome.
Just as Goku told Gohan to be careful fighting Cell in the Cell Games, Piccolo told Gohan this time to be careful and to go SSJ.
And if Kibito was stronger than Gohan's base form, would that destroy your world? I mean, except for a gag scene, everything else points at Gohan having to use SSJ to win against Kibito without much hassle. He is the highest deity's assistant after all, just like Popo being Kami's assistant and having a power stronger than Piccolo Daimao's, so my point isn't that far fetched.

[p123]

Piccolo only tells Gohan to go SSJ because Kaioshin wants him to. Piccolo wants Gohan to listen to Kibito, who is Kaioshin's assistant. That is all. There has nothing to do with power. Gohan only says Kibito looks like a strong opponent and thinks to himself that he might need it.

Kibito and Kaioshin's power are still pretty much a mystery at this point. Nothing conclusive.

[dbgtFO]

Please show me a scan, where Piccolo says, that Gohan HAS to use SSJ to win.

I don't get where you get that he HAD to go SSJ from my post. Piccolo sensed Kibito's power, and told that Gohan should go SSJ, since it would otherwise be troublesome.

When did Piccolo say that?

Just as Goku told Gohan to be careful fighting Cell in the Cell Games, Piccolo told Gohan this time to be careful and to go SSJ.
And if Kibito was stronger than Gohan's base form, would that destroy your world? I mean, except for a gag scene, everything else points at Gohan having to use SSJ to win against Kibito without much hassle. He is the highest deity's assistant after all, just like Popo being Kami's assistant and having a power stronger than Piccolo Daimao's, so my point isn't that far fetched.

No it wouldn't destroy my world, I just don't want to see those fan made claims, that Piccolo told Gohan to go SSJ, since it would be troublesome without it, when he in fact never stated such a thing.
If I'm wrong, please provide a scan to prove that claim.
Here are all the scans where Kibito's strength is noted during the 25th TB.
Goku on Kibito's strength...
Gohan realizing his opponent is a strong one...
Piccolo nodding at Kibito's request, that Gohan should go SSJ...
In fact this: 超サイヤ人 is the spelling of Super Saiya-Jin, but it's nowhere to be found in either one of Piccolo's speech bubbles, so stop making false claims.
And see what p123 said, he is right.

My thoughts on Kibito and the Z sword:
People with advanced control of ki are able to power up their body with it, so they can fight even better, than by just using their physical strength. Examples being King Piccolo vs. Goku, Goku vs. Piccolo Jr., Nappa vs. Piccolo & Co. etc.

If you like, you can also power up individual parts of your body to make you stronger in that particular area. Examples being Goku's "Oozaru Fist" vs. King Piccolo & SSJ Goku's "Super Finger" vs. SSJ Trunks.(I can't think of more at the current moment).

Since we know, that Kibito is able to use ki properly(he is able to fly), then he should likewise be able to pump all of that ki into his arms, so he is able to lift more. Knowing this we have no basis to assume, that Kibito didn't try his hardest, when he tried to lift the Z sword, so he was basically pumping all of his ki into his arms to try to lift it, yet he failed.

And why did he fail, if he is stronger, than Gohan Ki wise? It doesn't make sense, if he is able to use ki properly!

So in conclusion Kibito in terms of Ki is very high up there(as Daizenshuu 7 states), but he is still weaker, than Gohan, but not to an extent, that he wouldn't be a difficult opponent just like Nappa was to Goku or Krillin was to Nappa. In both cases we see, that a fighter with less than ½ of the opponents BP is still able to put up a difficult fight(Imagine if Goku hadn't countered Nappa's Mouth Blast, or if Nappa didn't dodge Krillin's Kienzan, as Vegeta told him to they would both have been in serious trouble).

[p123]

Good breakdown DB. I will disagree with you on the strength ki situation. IMO in the Z sword situation alone strength = ki, and generally does a majority of the time anyhow. IMO, it is AT just showing us how they relate to each other.


Base Gohan Post Z >>> Base Goku > Base Gohan > Kibito


Is all that should be taken from that. I don't think it's appropriate to look into any more deeply than that.

[Son Edo]

Id put him above a Cell Jr.

[p123]

Who would you put above a Cell Jr?