Two questions.

[goku the krump dancer]

I'm going to get straight to the point.

My first question is was Goku using a 10x Kaioken when displaying his power against Ginyu? I ask because I noticed that he said he was able to handle a 10x Kaioken when he finished his training in his space ship, then later on when he finished powering up Ginyu read that his power was 180,000. Now wouldn't that be the powerlevel of Oozaru Vegeta back on Earth sice the transformation is a multiplier of 10 and I believe Vegeta's power on Earth was 18,000. If thats the case then Goku hadn't gotten that much stronger at all with out the Kaioken beacuse that would mean his base power was 18,000 aswell on Namek if his 10x Kaioken boosted him up to 180,00.

My second question is, who do you think is the evilest, Kid Boo, Janemba or Yi xing Shen Long? I ask this mostly out of curiostiy, and that Kid Boo is stated to be pure evil, Janemba was created from all the evilness of the cleansed souls and last Yi xing Shen Long was created from the negative energy of the dragonballs. For me I thinks its a tie between Boo and Janemba since Yi could spare some one if he wanted.

[Vegeta's Wire]

^ Above

To answer your first question, I likely doubt (almost sure, but I might be wrong) that Goku was using a Kaio-Ken 10x, and I can't remember anything that implied that he could stand it, except when he fough Freeza, which was, obviously, after facing Ginyu. And Vegeta NEVER reached 180.000 back on Earth when he first fought Goku simply because he was injured and tired (Goku even noticed a small decrease in Vegeta's power when he created an artificial moon), thus, couldn't multiply his base 18.000 power level by 10, simply because he wasn't really at his full power when he transformed! This might be just speculation, but I think Vegeta's power level was around 85.000<125.000 when he transformed.

As for the second question, I can't really choose one! All three are as evil as you can get! I guess it's just a matter of subjective opinion...

[Bussani]

To answer your first question, I likely doubt (almost sure, but I might be wrong) that Goku was using a Kaio-Ken 10x, and I can't remember anything that implied that he could stand it, except when he fough Freeza, which was, obviously, after facing Ginyu.

After finishing his training in x100 gravity, Goku commented that his body could probably handle Kaio-ken x10. But Ginyu estimated Goku's power to be around 60,000, and after exchanging blows with him admits that he's even better than he expected. For what it's worth, the Daizenshuu places Goku's battle power at 90,000 here, which would make his 180,000 a regular ol' Kaio-ken x2. Since all he shouts is "Kaio-ken," this does make sense.

[p123]

Bussani is right about the Kaioken.

I think Janemba vs Kid Buu is very interesting in an evilness debate. But the guy who turns into Janemba is probably not pure evil. Which means Janemba is probably 99.99999 % evil , yet Kid Buu is 100% evil.

Kid Buu wins.

[Herms]

But Ginyu estimated Goku's power to be around 60,000, and after exchanging blows with him admits that he's even better than he expected. For what it's worth, the Daizenshuu places Goku's battle power at 90,000 here, which would make his 180,000 a regular ol' Kaio-ken x2. Since all he shouts is "Kaio-ken," this does make sense.

Before Goku starts to use the Kaio-ken, Ginyu adjusts his estimate of Goku's battle power to 85,000. So that combined with Goku using the regular Kaio-ken to get a BP of 180,000 is probably where Daizenshuu 7 got 90,000 for Goku's regular form at the time.

[Bussani]

But Ginyu estimated Goku's power to be around 60,000, and after exchanging blows with him admits that he's even better than he expected. For what it's worth, the Daizenshuu places Goku's battle power at 90,000 here, which would make his 180,000 a regular ol' Kaio-ken x2. Since all he shouts is "Kaio-ken," this does make sense.

Before Goku starts to use the Kaio-ken, Ginyu adjusts his estimate of Goku's battle power to 85,000.

Ah, I managed to completely miss that line. 90,000 seems like a logical conclusion, anyway.

I forgot to mention before, but Goku goes on to say, "This is nothing compared to when I use my power in bursts," suggesting that 180,000 was nowhere near what Goku was capable of if he was serious. After all, if 180,000 was only a regular Kaio-ken, x10 would make him 900,000!

[cpd12589]

First question: Goku was just using regular Kaioken. His power level was 90,000 so with Kaioken x2 he went to 180,000.

Second question: Like said above the Saike Demon that got turned into Janemba wasn't 100% evil so for that reason I believe Kid Buu to definitely be more evil. Since Kid Buu was said to be evil itself he wins IMO. Although the Shadow Dragons were created from negative energy that doesn't mean they are 100% evil. I mean Nuova Shenron wasn't evil in the end. So Kid Buu takes this IMO.

[Fox666]

After all, if 180,000 was only a regular Kaio-ken, x10 would make him 900,000!

That's correct. While Goku never used that power, on reality he could easily reach 900,000.

[p123]

Yes, I suggest this...


Goku 90,000
KKx5 450,000
Kkx10 900,000


Goku's max comfortable fighting Kaioken is KKx5. KKx 5 is comparable to KK vs Vegeta and KKx10 vs Freeza.


Goku's KKx10 would be his max here, all he can offer here is the Max Kaioken Kamehameha.


Which in all likelihood, Goku KKx10 would not even be able to finish Initial Second Form Freeza.


The max Kaioken Kamehameha is an inefficient move, as we see it didn't work against Vegeta who he should be stronger than, and it didn't work against Freeza who he should be on par with. Too much strain or too much amplifying or whatever the hell appears to be the cause. Probably a big reason Kaioken was completely abandoned as well.

[Fox666]

I think that when Goku said he could use up to Kaio-ken 10x, it means using it with confort.

I suppose that he "could" use a Kaio-ken of 10x when he fought against Vegeta, but his arms would fall apart and had a heart attack.

[Vegeta's Wire]

After finishing his training in x100 gravity, Goku commented that his body could probably handle Kaio-ken x10.

I did have the impression that Goku implied it somewhere, I just wasn't sure... Thanks for clearing that up.

[Godo]

My second question is, who do you think is the evilest, Kid Boo, Janemba or Yi xing Shen Long? I ask this mostly out of curiostiy, and that Kid Boo is stated to be pure evil, Janemba was created from all the evilness of the cleansed souls and last Yi xing Shen Long was created from the negative energy of the dragonballs. For me I thinks its a tie between Boo and Janemba since Yi could spare some one if he wanted.

Janemba as fat would probably be as evil as Fat Buu, since he seemed to have the same personality. Janemba as slim would probably be as evil as Super Buu, since he showed some kind of control, in comparison to Kid Buu.
Yi xing Shen Long I don't know, but I would put Kid Buu as more evil than Janemba at least.

[p123]

The problem with that idea is that Goku would virtually have no added benefit from going from 90k to 3 million. One would think 3 million Goku could handle Kkx10 better than 90k Goku don't you think?

[Fox666]

It could simply be that Goku must train the Kaio-ken to increase it's limit, and that battle power doesn't count much.

Or it could also be that Kaio-ken 10x is the limit which the body can support without injuring itself.

[p123]

Either way is plausible. But it's never really suggested that he trained Kaioken in the spaceship. In fact it's suggested he didn't. If he says I bet I could do Kaioken x10, that's from speaking from an estimation. If he truly was training Kaioken, he would know for sure what level of Kaioken he could do you know?

So by that POV, Goku should only be able to do Kaiokenx4 against Ginyu, which is directly contradicted by Goku's " I bet I can do Kaioken x10 " statement. Which pushes us to believe that it's more a factor of the strength of the user , moreso than than the training of Kaioken.

Disagree?

[Super Vegito]

Kid Buu is definitely the evilist. He has absolutely no rationality, and doesn't care about anyone or anything. He takes pleasure in destruction and killing, and he cuts straight to the point.

[Bussani]

The problem with that idea is that Goku would virtually have no added benefit from going from 90k to 3 million. One would think 3 million Goku could handle Kkx10 better than 90k Goku don't you think?

He comments that his body can probably handle Kaioken x10 in response to how tough his body got, which he demonstrates by pounding his chest. I guess his near-death-power-increase could have increased his power, but not his body's raw toughness enough to make the difference. Toriyama said in one of the guides that there's a limit to how much you can toughen up the body, so there's probably a limit to how large you can make Kaioken, too.

[p123]

Goku's body is so tough because he's so powerful now. He went from probably somewhere in what the 12k range post zenkai from Vegeta to 90k? That's somewhere around the biggest increase in his life in such a short time. Except that he goes through a way bigger increase just hours later. Were going to have to agree to disagree here.

[goku the krump dancer]

Well its seems as though my first question was given a straight answer, so thanks for clearing that up. If Goku had used a 10x Kaioken he would have wiped the floor with Ginyu and 1st form Freeza.

Kid Buu is definitely the evilist. He has absolutely no rationality, and doesn't care about anyone or anything. He takes pleasure in destruction and killing, and he cuts straight to the point.

The thing is, Boo did listen to Bibidi for a while until East Kaioshin killed him. Now this might not count for much but Janemba laughed histerically when his own sword crumbled in his hand probably meaning that even the slightest bit of destruction entertains him.

[dbgtFO]

The thing is, Boo did listen to Bibidi for a while until East Kaioshin killed him. Now this might not count for much but Janemba laughed histerically when his own sword crumbled in his hand probably meaning that even the slightest bit of destruction entertains him.

Buu didn't listen. East Kaioshin states, that he was uncontrollable and it was first through absorbing Dai Kaioshin, that he was able to be controlled.

About the Kaioken and its limits:

Goku's body is so tough because he's so powerful now. He went from probably somewhere in what the 12k range post zenkai from Vegeta to 90k? That's somewhere around the biggest increase in his life in such a short time. Except that he goes through a way bigger increase just hours later. Were going to have to agree to disagree here.

If you disagree with what Bussani says below this, then you are disagreeing with the manga.

The problem with that idea is that Goku would virtually have no added benefit from going from 90k to 3 million. One would think 3 million Goku could handle Kkx10 better than 90k Goku don't you think?

He comments that his body can probably handle Kaioken x10 in response to how tough his body got, which he demonstrates by pounding his chest. I guess his near-death-power-increase could have increased his power, but not his body's raw toughness enough to make the difference. Toriyama said in one of the guides that there's a limit to how much you can toughen up the body, so there's probably a limit to how large you can make Kaioken, too.

King Kai stated, that using a Kaioken beyond the limits of his body is dangerous for him, since the body and therefore the physical strength of his body can't keep up.
And after Goku receives his power up he doesn't state something like: "I can probably handle a Kaiokenx15 by now!"
If he was confident in him going even higher, than times 10, then he would have stated it.

Now to my personal fanon about the requirements of Kaioken.
1) We know, that your body has to be at a certain level of strength to handle the Kaioken, so there should be a minimum level of strength to handle the Kaioken, which King Kai hasn't reached, since he is incapable of handling it.
2) Goku states, that he activates Kaioken by controlling ALL of the Ki in his body, so a guy who wants to use Kaioken has to have an advanced control of ki.

I decided on the minimum limit for one to be able to handle the normal Kaioken to be a BP of 4000 in purely physical strength, meaning not powered by ki.

This means Goku has to be equal to it or above it to handle it with the ease, that he did.
So I decided, that Goku's 5000 level, which Vegeta scouted is Goku's physical strength acquired through gravity training on King Kai's planet, while his over 8000 level is his physical strength combined with his ki strength.

So this means, that your physical strength has to be 6000 to handle Kaiokenx3, which Goku had trouble with since he is at 5000, while Kaiokenx4's minimum is 8000, which was too much for Goku.

So if we look at the chart it goes like this:

Physical strength(PS) required to easily use the normal Kaioken/Kaiokenx2: 4000 - Goku's PS = 5000, King Kai's PS = 3500(his BP from V Jump).
PS required to easily use KKx3: 6000.
PS required to easily use KKx4: 8000.
And if we go to Kaiokenx10 we see:

PS required to easily use KKx10: 20.000. - this is based on that I think Ginyu could only access Goku's physical strength, which is why his BP only was 23.000, while in Goku's body, simply because Ginyu being an alien and all has a different way of powering up, which only relies on physical strength, meaning he can't acces Goku's ki strength(which is 67.000, since 90-23=67).
This would also mean, that the near death power ups Saiyans receive mostly powers up your ki and not your physical strength, so Goku would physically still be at 23.000, when he faces Freeza, which is far from being able to use Kaiokenx20 easily(40.000), which is why he was drained so much.

This is my fanon though, but what do you think?