Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Taku128]

I think Vegetto actually only has a battle power of 824, but his charming personality and perseverance is why he's able to beat Boo.

[Bussani]

The AxB formula won't work for KibitoShin , Gokan, or Gokule. So I don't think it's accurate IMO.

I doubt that blurb was meant to be taken as a literal formula, anyway. A formula is worthless without knowing what units of measurement to use, so just applying it to these made up fan lists would produce pretty meaningless results.

But that said, I don't think fusions are a product of math, anyway. Especially not math that only takes the battle powers of the two fusees into account. As Toriyama put it in an interview, ki is made up of spiritual powers such as health/vigor (genki), bravery (yuuki) and "true character" (shouki); since fusion creates a new personality by combining two others, I think the result could be different depending on how the personalities work together. In other words, I think Kaboom's less strict approach makes the most sense.

[Fox666]

The manga clearly states that Goku and Vegeta rivalry that made Vegetto so strong. There is absolute no "formula" for that.

Because he's motherfucking Vegetto.

More or less. More specifically, a fusion takes the best of both parts.

In other words, the more different the two beings are, the stronger the fusion is.

[p123]

@p123 Hate to break it to you, but Herms' Battle Power chart is just as good as yours

Maybe you need to get your head fixed fool! Lol.

Indeed. Herms is just proving a point. Your list could be right, his could be right, Kaboom's could be right, the very next poster could be right. But the thread really isn't here to have a heated arguments about how one person's battle powers are better than another's, it's to have fun making the lists in the first place. Constructive criticism is good and fine, but when it drags out for page upon page with no end in site, it looses its charm.

There is no right and wrong in power level creation. I think there should be standards and logical ways of doing things. Other prefer randomness and biased opinions to dictate their levels. If you can't see the difference, then maybe you weren't meant to see it I guess.

The formula explicitly says "Vegetto = Goku x Vegeta". It says nothing about those losers.

Where is the Potara suggested to work differently for different people? Never saw that in the manga.

Because he's motherfucking Vegetto.

Yea ok... Base Vegetto is nothing special...


Buuhan > Base Gokan > Buutenks > Base Vegetto


Gokan would blow Vegetto out of the water IMO.

I think Vegetto actually only has a battle power of 824, but his charming personality and perseverance is why he's able to beat Boo.

Your post was a complete waste of time. This is a power level thread, if you don't like them, don't post here. Simple really.

p123 wrote:
The AxB formula won't work for KibitoShin , Gokan, or Gokule. So I don't think it's accurate IMO.

I doubt that blurb was meant to be taken as a literal formula, anyway. A formula is worthless without knowing what units of measurement to use, so just applying it to these made up fan lists would produce pretty meaningless results.

Disagree, the fusion formula should be able to spit out the results of the fusions suggested power, and the suggested fusions suggested power. Randomness = Fail IMO.

The manga clearly states that Goku and Vegeta rivalry that made Vegetto so strong. There is absolute no "formula" for that

Agreed. That's going to have to be a guess. You would have to know where Base Vegetto's power would be, which is speculative as well. But you should figure out Gogeta using the fusion formula and then factor in what Potara Gogeta would be and then subtract him from what Vegetto is and get a rough estimate for what the rivals boost is.

More or less. More specifically, a fusion takes the best of both parts.

In other words, the more different the two beings are, the stronger the fusion is.

That's fine and dandy. But nothing suggests Vegetto is stronger than Gokan. And we already have Elder Kaioshin's estimate for Gokan. So Gokan would be the cap for Vegetto's strength.

[Herms]

I think Vegetto actually only has a battle power of 824, but his charming personality and perseverance is why he's able to beat Boo.

Personally I maintain that his BP is 0. He's far too strong to need these silly numbers.

[p123]

Yes the reverse method . That was definitley interesting I thought your idea was very creative.


Personally I choose to switch to killi for the Buu Saga. My theory includes 1 killi = to 1 million on a scouter.


Which results in Vegetto equal to 3 million killi.

[Rocketman]

Yea ok... Base Vegetto is nothing special...


Buuhan > Base Gokan > Buutenks > Base Vegetto


Gokan would blow Vegetto out of the water IMO.

You have no basis for that, and also your opinion is wrong because he is Vegetto.

His 'power level/kili level' is zero because Vegetto is not reliant on such primitive concepts as 'ki'. He wields the power of a god, and not one of the bitch 'gods' of DB who are unworthy of the title.

[Bussani]

p123 wrote:
The AxB formula won't work for KibitoShin , Gokan, or Gokule. So I don't think it's accurate IMO.

I doubt that blurb was meant to be taken as a literal formula, anyway. A formula is worthless without knowing what units of measurement to use, so just applying it to these made up fan lists would produce pretty meaningless results.

Disagree, the fusion formula should be able to spit out the results of the fusions suggested power, and the suggested fusions suggested power. Randomness = Fail IMO.

I don't understand how this is a reply to what you quoted from my post. I also still don't understand why you think a battle power based formula for fusion is required. You yourself acknowledge that Toriyama wasn't sitting there with a calculator, so why do you have to? And even if you want to, why should anyone else be expected to? I just don't see what a formula that fits the numbers gets you at the end of the day. And if you're good enough at math, you can come up with a formula to fit the numbers no matter how random they are.

[Kaboom]

I like all the attempts to make this fun again. Thanks guys.

[p123]

You have no basis for that, and also your opinion is wrong because he is Vegetto

Glad that you asked. I actually do have a basis for that.


Elder Kaioshin suggests that Gokan might not have to transform to beat Buutenks. Seeing as how Elder Kaioshin's opinion is far better than what any of use could offer, I see no reason not to use his opinion, it's in the manga.
So Elder suggest Gokan stronger, but isn't 100% sure, so it's probably not by all that much. Buuhan on the other hand is definitively stronger, as he claims he is the strongest now.



Buuhan > Base Gokan > Buutenks


IMO, maybe Gokan could be a bit stronger, but I doubt him being stronger than Buuhan, and if he was , it probably wouldn't be by much.



So we got Gokan down, logically Gokan > Vegetto, since

Goku = Goku
Gohan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vegeta


Rivals boost is added to Vegetto, but ....

" Of course their powerful, they are made up of two out of the three of the strongest fighters in the universe , and it doesn't hurt that they live to outdo each other "


Not actual quote, but pretty darn close. As you can see Elder Kaioshin is this statement is implying that a majority reason of Vegetto's strength would be Goku/Vegeta, and the rivals boost, doesn't hurt, but logically is not going to be a tremendously different being. Surely not enough to leap over Gokan who based on Gohan >>>>>>>>>> Vegeta, would be a large gap.


Base Vegetto immeditaley transforms. Logically, when we see a fighter do this, he wants no parts of that fighter in his previous form. Just because the anime depicts one thing means nothing. The manga suggets Base Vegetto wants no parts of Buuhan seeing as he doesn't even attempt to try his power out. SSJ Vegetto, is suprised by his power, and didn't think it would go like this, suggets that Vegetto didn't transform into SSJ to just toy around, but moreso that he needed to. Vegetto wants to use his full power and complains to Buuhan that he should be stronger because he wants to test out his capabilties.



Also, seeing how weak KibitoShin is, Potara being a ridicolously powerful multiplier is unlikely, seeing how Kibito was Base ( MSSJ ) Saiyan tier, and Kaioshin was somewhere in MSSJ level. KibitoSHin is weaker than SSj2 Vegeta. So Potara isn't as crazy as some think.


It's more about people's confusion from the anime influence in which Base Vegetto is a bit superior to Buuhan. In the manga, there really is no basis for this POV, other than trying to twist logic to make it match the anime. Logically most people will agree Gokan > Vegetto. But I am sure you will come back with whatever backwards logic you could muster seeing as the last thing you would want to do is agree with me here.

I also still don't understand why you think a battle power based formula for fusion is required

Because it's the only logical way to do it of course. Complete randomness is an inferior form of " creativity " IMO.

You yourself acknowledge that Toriyama wasn't sitting there with a calculator, so why do you have to?

Because there is no other option.

Logical Formula that works >>>> Randomness


You really disagree with that? If you do, I have a feeling it's more about not agreeing with me, than anything else. If you can make it fit with the suggested fusion powers, why wouldn't you use that formula, instead of a formula that does not fit the suggested powers? How does that not make sense?

And even if you want to, why should anyone else be expected to?

Logical Formula > Randomness

And if you're good enough at math, you can come up with a formula to fit the numbers no matter how random they are

Exactly. This is were the true creation part of power levels comes in. Lazyness should not be an option. Get to work, be creative, don't just be lazy and throw out random tremendous numbers and stick to them as if you did something. Stealing a basic AxB formula and running with it as if it is worth anything is simply inferior IMO. If you enjoy doing power levels, you should work at this portion of the series. This is the hardest , most important, most creative issue. This is where you can really shine. It's just disappointing to see some work so hard, and put a lot of thought and effort behind their postions while others offer little and hold to theirs as masterpieces is just subpar logical reasoning. The rule should be, whoever comes up with the best idea/theory/formula should force others to follow that POV. Because obviously the levels are meant to be shared. As if they were your own POV to yourself, you would never show them. We don't need people throwing out random power levels, the fandom is confused enough.

And it's simply too easy to make a good power level chart. There should be a general basis where fans could look and say oh hey, a majority of people agree that these fighters should fall in these ranges. I mean if we all use common sense, we can get a complete power level list that is suited for the fandom. A daiz level power level list, and perhaps even better than that for the entire manga. All this I do it for creative purposes and it's my opinion is bull. If they were they would be kept to yourself. Power levels are a great judge of one's knowledge about the series as well, general A> B charts and the spacing required to show the appropriate symbols, are a great reflection of how one feels about the entire story without having to explain it too much.


So at the end of the day, if we aren't working together, it's really pointless. We can never make " real " power levels, which is silly, since DB is not real anyhow, but besides the point, it should be our duty, as hardcore power level guys, to contribute, and work together to create a massive correlating list that majority can agree on. The Daiz isn't perfect, and isn't factual, nor is it 100% correct on every issue, but people can agree that the general spacing, numbers are pretty accurate, accurate enough that fans can use it as a reference .


End rant.

[Kaboom]

p123... You just don't get it. At all.

Has anything I've said gotten through to you?

[Bussani]

Because it's the only logical way to do it of course. Complete randomness is an inferior form of " creativity " IMO.

Mathing two battle powers together doesn't match the idea behind fusing two people, in my opinion.

Because there is no other option.

Logical Formula that works >>>> Randomness


You really disagree with that? If you do, I have a feeling it's more about not agreeing with me, than anything else. If you can make it fit with the suggested fusion powers, why wouldn't you use that formula, instead of a formula that does not fit the suggested powers? How does that not make sense?

Because you're making a formula to fit the numbers, which you've admitted were created at random. I don't see the point. You have the numbers. What does a formula made after them get you? Are you going to use it for what-if fusions? If so, since I don't think fusions work that way, such a thing is meaningless to me.

And no, this has nothing to do with me simply not wanting agree with you or anything as asinine as that, and I'm not saying that randomness is better than logic; I'm saying that your method is too strict and simple because it only takes battle powers into consideration, ignoring the spiritual and psychological aspects of ki in the process. Simple example: if Vegetto is braver than Goku and Vegeta, then he has more yuuki than them.

And if you're good enough at math, you can come up with a formula to fit the numbers no matter how random they are

Exactly.

...Then...you're admitting it's pointless. It's nothing but finding a correlation between existing numbers. I could make the fusions whatever I want, but so long as I can define a correlation between them, you'd be happy?

The rule should be, whoever comes up with the best idea/theory/formula should force others to follow that POV. Because obviously the levels are meant to be shared. As if they were your own POV to yourself, you would never show them. We don't need people throwing out random power levels, the fandom is confused enough.

You've really missed the point of this thread.

[dbgtFO]

@p123 Hate to break it to you, but Herms' Battle Power chart is just as good as yours

Maybe you need to get your head fixed fool! Lol.

p123... You just don't get it. At all.

Has anything I've said gotten through to you?

Please p123 try to understand, what Kaboom has been repeatedly pointing out to you.

So at the end of the day, if we aren't working together, it's really pointless. We can never make " real " power levels, which is silly, since DB is not real anyhow, but besides the point, it should be our duty, as hardcore power level guys, to contribute, and work together to create a massive correlating list that majority can agree on. End rant.

Underlined and bolded text:

[Godo]

I am ashamed to admit that I can't resist to answer on some of these completely ridiculous comments that p123 has done.

Maybe you need to get your head fixed fool! Lol.

Right now you have said to another person that just because of that they think differently than you, they have brain damage and are fools. Mature.

There is no right and wrong in power level creation. I think there should be standards and logical ways of doing things. Other prefer randomness and biased opinions to dictate their levels. If you can't see the difference, then maybe you weren't meant to see it I guess.

There can't be "no right and wrong in power level creation" and at the same time "standards and logical ways of doing things". You are contradiction yourself.
If there indeed is no right or wrong, then Herms' battle power list is just as true as yours. But you mentioned that his was wrong. Thus you are a hypocrite.

Where is the Potara suggested to work differently for different people? Never saw that in the manga.

The rivalry boost of Vegetto, Goku possibly becoming weaker from fusing with Mr. Satan, ect. indicate that.

Yea ok... Base Vegetto is nothing special...

Buuhan > Base Gokan > Buutenks > Base Vegetto

Gokan would blow Vegetto out of the water IMO.

Mere assumption coming straight for your ass. We don't know how much the rivalry boost affected Vegetto, thus we can't know for sure how strong he would be. If we go by your standards, that would be the logical answer. But how come others have to be logical and you don't?
I read your proof from your post after this one, and there is no proof there.
Vegetto transforming doesn't have to do with him needing the power, but merely to own Buu so hard that he in mere frustration and despair absorbs him (which was his plan all along).
Thus there is nothing indicating that base Vegetto couldn't handle Buu.

Your post was a complete waste of time. This is a power level thread, if you don't like them, don't post here. Simple really.

This is a powerlevel thread where we express out creativity. We want to have fun and share our nifty creations, whether they are based on mathematical formulas or on a pot high.
You are slowly killing the intent of the thread with your forced "logic" and forced "minimum percentages" and forced "fact".

Disagree, the fusion formula should be able to spit out the results of the fusions suggested power, and the suggested fusions suggested power. Randomness = Fail IMO.

Then Toriyama = fail, since he randomly chose who would become stronger than the other. Kibito and Kaioshin couldn't help against Boo (but two SSJ2s could). Kibitoshin should be stronger than a SSJ2, but he isn't, whereas Goku fusing with Mr. Satan wouldn't give nearly any results at all.
That's especially emphasized by people putting Kibito at 1000 in powerlevel in a desperate attempt to make their formulas work, which is stupid. As I said, fusions are random and depend on many, many factors, and not formulas.

That's fine and dandy. But nothing suggests Vegetto is stronger than Gokan. And we already have Elder Kaioshin's estimate for Gokan. So Gokan would be the cap for Vegetto's strength.

Nope. Even with his estimation of Gokan, Elder Kaioshin was over and over again impressed over Vegetto's power. He underestimated him several times but ended up impressed instead.
This indicates that Vegetto's abilities surpassed what Elder Kaioshin expected of Gokan (which was the measuring stick for Vegetto).

[Fox666]

You have no basis for that, and also your opinion is wrong because he is Vegetto.

His 'power level/kili level' is zero because Vegetto is not reliant on such primitive concepts as 'ki'. He wields the power of a god, and not one of the bitch 'gods' of DB who are unworthy of the title.

Resurrection score:

Jesus: 1
Goku: 4
Jason: 9
Kenny: ±89

[Senzu_Bean]

Okay... I thought in giving a try another different different way to measure characters. I got the idea from Salagir when he attributed different tiers to different characters. I will start with the Majin Buu arc:

Tier 1
Trunks Super Saiyan
Goten Super Saiyan

Tier 2
Piccolo

Tier 3
Goku Super Saiyan
Vegeta Super Saiyan
Gohan Super Saiyan

Tier 4
East Kaioshin

Tier 5
Dabura
Gohan Super Saiyan 2

Tier 6
Vegeta Majin Super Saiyan 2
Goku Super Saiyan 2
Vegeta Super Saiyan 2

Tier 7
Gotenks Super Saiyan
Majin Buu Innocent

Tier 8
Goku Super Saiyan 3
Majin Buu Pure

Tier 9
Majin Buu Pure Powered-weight
Gohan The Mightiest Warrior
Majin Buu Evil Merged w/Piccolo, Trunks & Goten
Gotenks Super Saiyan 3
Majin Buu Evil

Tier 10
Majin Buu Evil Merged w/Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks & Goten
Majin Buu Evil Merged w/Gotenks & Piccolo

Tier 99999999... ERROR
Vegetto Super Saiyan

Cell Games

Tier 1
Piccolo

Tier 2
Cell Jr.
Vegeta Super Saiyan Full Power
Trunks Super Saiyan Full Power

Tier 3
Goku Super Saiyan Full Power

Tier 4
Cell Suppressed
Gohan Super Saiyan Full Power

Tier 5
Cell Full-powered

Tier 6
Cell Power-weighted
Gohan Mad Super Saiyan 2
Cell Powered-up

Artificial Humans arc

Tier 1
Artificial Human #20
Artificial Human #19

Tier 2
Vegeta Super Saiyan
Goku Super Saiyan
Trunks Super Saiyan
Piccolo

Tier 3
Super Piccolo
Artificial Human #17
Artificial Human #18

Tier 4
Artificial Human #16
Cell Imperfect

Tier 5
Cell Semi-Perfect
Tenshinhan Kidding

Tier 6
Vegeta Super Saiyan 2nd Grade
Trunks Super Saiyan 2nd Grade

Tier 7
Trunks Super Saiyan 3rd Grade
Cell Heavily-suppressed
Goku Super Saiyan Full Power 50%


I might give other arcs a try, since this is an even simpler system than the other I posted.

[Godo]

Can I copy Senzu Bean's list and make one with the fighting technique-tier of fighters? I think that technique has a correlation with power, and it's fun, since not everyone that's not strong lacks great technique. It's another measure of greatness!

I'll try this out, if it's not tolerated in this thread, give a shout out and I'll know.

Tier 1 - Basically anyone who just throws punches/brawls

Kid Boo (even worse than Fat Boo)
Fat Boo (magical, brawler)
Skinny Boo (same as Kid Boo)
Super Boo (same as skinny Boo)
Dr. Gero (old scientist, brawler, poor fighting skills)
Android 19 (Fat a**hole who only sucks energy)
Android 17 (just an average teen)
Android 18 (just an average teen)
Android 16 (since he is mechanical, I doubt that any control has to do with his fighting)

Tier 2 - Someone who knows martial arts
Mr. Satan
Basically most fighters of the Tenkaichi Budokai

Tier 3- Someone who knows advanced martial arts (included ki/spirit control)
Mr. Popo
Karin
Kame Sennin (Even though not that strong, he is a master)
Videl (Although maybe between tier 2 and 3)

Tier 4 - Someone who knows basic ki attacks and bukujutsu, no great control
Radditz
Nappa
Recoome
Baata
Jeice
Trunks
Goten

Tier 5 - Someone who knows advanced ki attacks and has better ki control
Guldo (His telekinetic powers gives him high place)
Freeza (him not being to estimate ki kills his place in tier 6)
Captain Ginyu (Mostly because of him being able to change his powerlevel and to change bodies)
Future Trunks (Even though his SSJ transformations should put him into tier 6, he was kind of dead when it came to techniques)

Tier 6 - Someone who has excellent ki control
Gotenks (don't ask me how he got it, two idiots doesn't one genius make)
Vegetto
Goku
Vegeta
Gohan
Piccolo (Don't need to discuss this, I believe)
Tenshinhan (Probably one of the best among the humans in ki control)
Kuririn (Has some nifty attacks)
Chao-zu (He has great telekinetic powers)
Yamcha (although I am really tempted to put him at tier 5 since his most advanced technique is the spirit ball and also to lose a lot)
Cell
The other Buu's that are left

[Rocketman]

Tier 6 - Someone who has excellent ki control
Gotenks (don't ask me how he got it, two idiots doesn't one genius make)
Goku
Vegeta
Gohan
Piccolo (Don't need to discuss this, I believe)
Tenshinhan (Probably one of the best among the humans in ki control)
Kuririn (Has some nifty attacks)
Chao-zu (He has great telekinetic powers)
Yamcha (although I am really tempted to put him at tier 5 since his most advanced technique is the spirit ball and also to lose a lot)
Cell
The other Buu's that are left

Tier 7 - THE GOD OF WAR
Vegetto

[p123]

Man a lot of backlash lol....

Why do people think Dabura is SSJ2 tier?

Goku/Vegeta admit that Dabura is nothing. Then Vegeta is suprised that Goku has SSJ2. How could Vegeta be suprised that Goku has SSJ2, if SSJ2 was needed to defeat Dabura?

How come Gohan talks about Goku vs Vegeta fighting on a SSJ2 level as if he and Dabura are not on a SSJ2 tier?

When the hell did Gohan do all of this training to transform into SSJ2 of free will? Gohan needs rage to transform SSJ2 plain and simple, evident as he says I can't be like before as he attempts to transform before Dabura for round 2.

Not to mention that Gohan is you know drawn as a SSJ, I just don't get the issue?

[Senzu_Bean]

I just don't get the issue?

Everybody knows the issue by this time. Seriously. Just give a quick search by "Dabura" on the forums and you will find it.