Gohan and Goku

[uzuni]

Say I have Gohan's BP at 2,500,000,000. What would you put Goku and Cell?

[uzuni]

Please feel free to explain how that quote has anything to do with Gohan being stronger than Goku? In what possible way could you have interpreted it to have come to that conclusion?

Also, when exactly did Goku say that?

Uhh..How did you just finish reading it and not see it?? It's in volume 18(DBZ) / 34(DB)

He says it, right after he surrenders to Cell. You know after he admits to Cell that he was no match for him. Then he asks to select the fighter that will beat him (implying that this fighter is stronger). Then he says:

Because if he loses, there'll be nobody else who can beat you

Now he's outright saying that Gohan is stronger. I mean otherwise it would be "If he loses then I'll fight you again because I'm stronger", wouldn't it??

Cell then asks point blank:

Do you mean to tell me there's someone stronger than you and me?!

Now if Goku is stronger than Gohan we know the answer right?

Yup.

See goku says n..err yup. So he's admitting that someone is stronger than the both of them.

Cell wants to know who this guy is and Goku says a name:

You're up...Gohan!!

So Goku calls his own nam...oh wait it's Gohan...So Gohan was the one who is stronger than Goku and Cell. Gohan was the one that Goku told Cell was stronger than the both of them.

Piccolo however, doubts this by saying:

He's grown remarkably, but this is Cell-against whom not even you stood a chance!!

Hmm. so why again, would Goku pick Gohan to fight Cell when Goku himself admitted defeat.

Piccolo, Gohan has more power than I can believe.

Oh yeah..For some odd reason Goku knows that Gohan is stronger than him. But how could he? It's not like they trained in some room for a long period of time where Goku could get a glimpse of the mysterious power that Gohan has and then decide that the fate of the world would rest on Gohan. Oh wait..HE DID!!

In all seriousness though. This is not like an issue where their statements are ambiguous and there are hints dropped (like Vegeta & SSJ2). Goku comments on it directly. Cell directly asks the question and Goku gives a straightforward answer. Piccolo even questions it and Goku explains how and why he knows Gohan is stronger.

Ok...but do you realize that during all of these instances where Goku claims that there is a fighter stronger than both of them, he's referring to Gohan in his SSJ2 state which, as you said, he caught a glimpse of in the Room of Spirit and Time. This is also confirmed by Gohan when Cell asks him what his father was thinking.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

It's pretty clear Gohan is stronger than Goku.

For one, Cell thinks Goku is talking outta his ass when he mentions someone being stronger than the both of them--then when Gohan actually releases his full-power, Cell says, and I quote: "Perhaps what Son Goku said wasn't just a bluff after all! But still...it's a joke to say he can defeat me!"

Cell was implying that Goku was correct about Gohan being stronger than Goku himself, but believed the part about Gohan being stronger than him (Cell) was bologne. And this was well before Cell even knew about Gohan's hidden powers.

[Godo]

Say I have Gohan's BP at 2,500,000,000. What would you put Goku and Cell?

FPSSJ Gohan (max): 2,500,000,000
FPSSJ Goku (max): 2,200,000,000
Cell (max): 2,800,000,000


Though I think that reasoning with BPs is silly at this point, as it can as well be:

FPSSJ Gohan (max): 2,200,000,000
FPSSJ Goku (max): 2,000,000,000
Cell (max): 2,800,000,000

Who knows the real difference between them?

[uzuni]

Say I have Gohan's BP at 2,500,000,000. What would you put Goku and Cell?

FPSSJ Gohan (max): 2,500,000,000
FPSSJ Goku (max): 2,200,000,000
Cell (max): 2,800,000,000


Though I think that reasoning with BPs is silly at this point, as it can as well be:

FPSSJ Gohan (max): 2,200,000,000
FPSSJ Goku (max): 2,000,000,000
Cell (max): 2,800,000,000

Who knows the real difference between them?

Ah, no, I didn't mean Cell at max. I meant at the level which he fought the both of them.

If I have Gohan>Goku, my list looks like this:

FPSSJ Gohan: 2,500,000,000
FPSSJ Goku: 2,400,000,000
Perfect Cell (suppressed): 2,500,000,000

If I have Goku>Gohan, (my original choice) my list looks like this:

FPSSJ Gohan: 2,500,000,000
FPSSJ Goku: 2,600,000,000
Perfect Cell (suppressed): 2,750,000,000

[the_abberration]

Ok...but do you realize that during all of these instances where Goku claims that there is a fighter stronger than both of them, he's referring to Gohan in his SSJ2 state which, as you said, he caught a glimpse of in the Room of Spirit and Time. This is also confirmed by Gohan when Cell asks him what his father was thinking.

Ok..but do you realize, that before #16 gives his speech to encourage Gohan to go SSJ2. Gohan while still SSJ:

1) Thinks Goku and Cell weren't going full out.
2) Doesn't seem to be phased by Cells attacks.
3) And when he powered up his SSJ form Cell says:

Perhaps what Goku said...wasn't just a bluff after all!

Even if you put my earlier comments aside, Gohan is showing that he can handle Cell's attacks a lot better than Goku. And Cell even concedes (without Gohan going SSJ2 mind you) that Goku was telling the truth. If Gohan was weaker, Cell wouldn't have made that acknowledgment. He only resorts to wanting to fight Goku again, because he starts doubting Gohan after he refuses to fight or go SSJ2.

[Nazi Cola]

Say I have Gohan's BP at 2,500,000,000. What would you put Goku and Cell?

Goku: 1,750,000,000
Cell: 1,850,000,000

Something like that.

[Herms]

Perhaps this discussion would be better suited for the "Official Unofficial Power Level Thread".

[Kaboom]

Perhaps this discussion would be better suited for the "Official Unofficial Power Level Thread".

That thread's supposed to be strictly for presentation of and friendly feedback for fan-made Power Level lists from a creative standpoint, hence its place in the FanWorks section. This is more of an actual "investigative" discussion of a concept, though it certainly is kinda resembling the former on this page...

[painfuldeath]

I agree that is pretty clear Gohan is stronger than Goku. However, it doesn't appear to be so because he is does not want to fight Cell, he is merely defending himself, trying not to get killed. Cell on the other hand, is actively trying to kill Gohan right up until the "hidden power" speech. During that entire effort, Cell is at 100% of his strength during the previous fight. This is a pretty clear indication that Gohan is stronger than Goku as he is not even trying to fight and he is still managing to survive quite easily.

Ultimately, Gohan's strength at that level is irrelevant because he did not want to fight. Goku's fight was way more of a spectacle because he was trying to fight and win to the best of his ability. If he had the spirit his father had, chances are he could have matched Cell's power at that state.

[Darkprince410]

I agree that is pretty clear Gohan is stronger than Goku. However, it doesn't appear to be so because he is does not want to fight Cell, he is merely defending himself, trying not to get killed. Cell on the other hand, is actively trying to kill Gohan right up until the "hidden power" speech. During that entire effort, Cell is at 100% of his strength during the previous fight. This is a pretty clear indication that Gohan is stronger than Goku as he is not even trying to fight and he is still managing to survive quite easily.

Ultimately, Gohan's strength at that level is irrelevant because he did not want to fight. Goku's fight was way more of a spectacle because he was trying to fight and win to the best of his ability. If he had the spirit his father had, chances are he could have matched Cell's power at that state.

Not quite. Cell doesn't actually start using his full power until after Gohan's already reached Ssj2. I'm not referring to his bulky form following his failed Kamehameha to try and destroy Earth, but his power-up right after Gohan had destroyed all the Cell Jrs and had yet to actually attack Cell himself while Ssj2. It was clearly indicated that this level was his full strength, so up to that point he had still been holding back to some extent, even with his fight with Gohan.

Cell wasn't actively trying to kill him though, since he acted like it was a mistake that he used enough of his strength to supposedly kill him right as their battle started (right before the whole "hidden power" conversation). He was using enough of his power to make the battle interesting and to keep himself as the stronger of the two, but it wasn't until Gohan transformed that Cell in turn pulled out all the stops.

[painfuldeath]

What I meant was that Cell was fighting at the same level as he was when he powered up to fight Goku at full power. But I guess you are right, he wasn't really trying to kill Gohan.

[Fox666]

Not quite. Cell doesn't actually start using his full power until after Gohan's already reached Ssj2. I'm not referring to his bulky form following his failed Kamehameha to try and destroy Earth, but his power-up right after Gohan had destroyed all the Cell Jrs and had yet to actually attack Cell himself while Ssj2. It was clearly indicated that this level was his full strength, so up to that point he had still been holding back to some extent, even with his fight with Gohan.

Cell wasn't actively trying to kill him though, since he acted like it was a mistake that he used enough of his strength to supposedly kill him right as their battle started (right before the whole "hidden power" conversation). He was using enough of his power to make the battle interesting and to keep himself as the stronger of the two, but it wasn't until Gohan transformed that Cell in turn pulled out all the stops.

I believe that Cell's maximum power wasn't used even against Goku, since Goku is surprised at seeing it.

It's pretty clear Gohan is stronger than Goku.

For one, Cell thinks Goku is talking outta his ass when he mentions someone being stronger than the both of them--then when Gohan actually releases his full-power, Cell says, and I quote: "Perhaps what Son Goku said wasn't just a bluff after all! But still...it's a joke to say he can defeat me!"

Cell was implying that Goku was correct about Gohan being stronger than Goku himself, but believed the part about Gohan being stronger than him (Cell) was bologne. And this was well before Cell even knew about Gohan's hidden powers.

I don't really think Gohan was superior to Goku. Goku believed in Gohan's hidden powers.

And Cell just saw that Gohan was close to Goku, which is really surprising.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I don't really think Gohan was superior to Goku. Goku believed in Gohan's hidden powers.

And Cell just saw that Gohan was close to Goku, which is really surprising.

Then why is Gohan himself unimpressed with Goku's power?

It is practically 100% bluntly stated that Gohan is stronger than Goku. Gohan asks why Goku gave up, because in his opinion, neither Cell or his father were fighting at full power. That scene has Gohan basically saying "I'm capable of fighting at a higher level than this, so why are dad and Cell fighting at a lower one?" Gohan assumes his dad will always be stronger than him, but his hero worship blinded him to the fact that he had surpassed his father (not unlike Videl and Mr. Satan's relationship). The entire purpose of the comment in that scene is Toriyama telling us that Gohan is stronger than both of the previous fighters, though Cell was holding back.

The only way Toriyama could have made it clearer would have been to make someone just state word for word that Gohan had surpassed Goku, but IMO that would be a waste. The entire Jinzoningen/Cell arc suffers from bad writing in terms of plot (kinda understandable though), but at least I still like the dialog for the most part.

[Fox666]

Everyone was miles away from Goku. Vegeta was scared of just half of Goku's power.

Gohan noticed how everybody was surprised, however he did not expected himself to be that close to Goku.

[Nazi Cola]

Everyone was miles away from Goku. Vegeta was scared of just half of Goku's power.

That was before he went back into the RoSaT. After, at the Cell Games, he's completely calm and confident in his power, and doesn't mind that Goku goes first against Cell. If he was still weaker than that, I think he'd want to get in the ring first because he knows if he doesn't then Goku will save the day again.

[Darkprince410]

Not quite. Cell doesn't actually start using his full power until after Gohan's already reached Ssj2. I'm not referring to his bulky form following his failed Kamehameha to try and destroy Earth, but his power-up right after Gohan had destroyed all the Cell Jrs and had yet to actually attack Cell himself while Ssj2. It was clearly indicated that this level was his full strength, so up to that point he had still been holding back to some extent, even with his fight with Gohan.

Cell wasn't actively trying to kill him though, since he acted like it was a mistake that he used enough of his strength to supposedly kill him right as their battle started (right before the whole "hidden power" conversation). He was using enough of his power to make the battle interesting and to keep himself as the stronger of the two, but it wasn't until Gohan transformed that Cell in turn pulled out all the stops.

I believe that Cell's maximum power wasn't used even against Goku, since Goku is surprised at seeing it.

I never said that he was using his full power against Goku during their match. I said that until his power-up following Gohan transforming into an Ssj2, Cell was holding back at least some of his power.