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[Fox666]

Kuririn is fighting a 23,000 level fighter evenly. It's not a long fight, but it's long enough to see that Kuririn is equals with Goku/Ginyu.

First of all such a rule don't exist. It's not really different from Kuririn vs Nappa.

And second there are several explanations. Ginyu already displayed battle damage which likely was done by Gohan. Also there is all that thing about Ginyu not being used to his body...

Then later, Vegeta says that Kuririn hasn't realized but he has powered up incredibly and is strong enough to help him against 1st form Freeza.

Vegeta simply said that the two power keep growing.

Back them, Raditz did not pick any power over 1,000. So Vegeta already knew that Kuririn power increased beetween that time. Later he get a huge power-up from Saichoro.

So there isn't any hidden secret battle power in Vegeta's line.

[p123]

First of all such a rule don't exist. It's not really different from Kuririn vs Nappa.

Kuririn vs Nappa is never suggested that Kuririn = Nappa. Also, Nappa was never using full power against the Z fighters, he only does against Goku...

And second there are several explanations. Ginyu already displayed battle damage which likely was done by Gohan. Also there is all that thing about Ginyu not being used to his body...

23,000 is 23,000. No real way to get around that. Gohan laughs off GokuGinyu's power. We know Gohan was only over 10k previously and now he is laughing off 23k power? Gohan is above 23k and Kuririn is ~ 23k.

[Fox666]

Kuririn vs Nappa is never suggested that Kuririn = Nappa.

You probably are the only one to think it does in Kuririn vs Ginyu...

23,000 is 23,000. No real way to get around that.

Vegeta still was 18,000 after being hit by the Genki Dama...

Gohan (...)

Gohan is a saiyajin and was near death before that...

[p123]

Gohan is never noted to have received a significant zenkai until he fights Freeza. Seeing as how he was only over 10k for him to be over 23k a zenkai that huge surely would have been noted. Logically Gohan/Kuririn's power increased over time due to the Guru power up. Which Vegeta also implies later as well.


If someone fights evenly with another fighter, why wouldn't they be equal? Were is Vegeta stated to be 18k after the Genki Dama?

[Fox666]

I was looking around the Internet and found a site with very interesting scans of a certain card game which translted is called "Anime Adventure Game" of sort. Supposedly the two books are from 12/1999 and 2/2001 respectively. The game lists the characters battle powers.

At most, it's a card game. It has tons of rules that I am not interesting in reading, it gives the character a "battle power" and a "power-up" for it, but at most it seems that the first one that correlated with the series. The "power-up" generally is equal to 20% of the battle powers. It also includes fillers characters or so, and list the battle powers for races (i.e. average saiyan, average namek, etc).

Before you get excited, it's not that of extraordinary source of information or anything. It gives a lot of implausible battle powers like certain video games does, for example Reecome has battle power of 60,000. It also commit some mistakes, like stating that a "single Kaio-ken" doubles the battle power while a "Kaio-ken 2x" triples it.

However, it also gives battle powers from valid sources, like Kaio's 3,500 and etc. So I think it might be at least a source of information worth to keep note, since it at least share some battle powers from official sources. Since we know that the Daizenshuu propositally omites certain battle powers (i.e. Freeza henchmen, which at least is given in the character description, or Ginyu Force members).

This is a brief list (I did not took care of listing every single battle power, as I don't think they are relevant at all):

(book 1)
• Goku (Saiyan Saga): 8,000
• Gohan (Saiyan Saga): 2,800
• Piccolo (Saiyan Saga): 3,400
• Krillin (Saiyan Saga): 1,770
• Bulma (Saiyan Saga): 16
• Yamcha (Saiyan Saga): 1,600
• Tien (Saiyan Saga): 1,830
• Chiaotzu (Saiyan Saga): 530
• Yajirobe (Saiyan Saga): 500
• Vegeta (Saiyan Saga): 7,500
• Nappa (Saiyan Saga): 4,500
• Saibamen: 1,200
• Raditz (Saiyan Saga): 1,250
• Kami: 2,000
• Korin: 1,700
• Shenron (Saiyan Saga): N/A
• Master Rosh: 350
• Chi-chi: 300
• The Ox King: 900
• King Kai: 3,500
• Bubbles: N/A
• Gregory: N/A
• Great King Yemma: 2,600
• Goz & Mez: 210
• Princess Snake: 900

(book 2)
• Goku (Frieza Saga): 300,000
• Super Saiyan Goku (Frieza Saga): 15,000,000
• Gohan (Frieza Saga): 18,000
• Krillin (Frieza Saga): 16,500
• Bulma (Frieza Saga): 16
• Vegeta (Frieza Saga): 3,600,000
• Dende: 10,000
• Guru: 2,000
• Nail: 400,000
• Piccolo (Post Nail): 800,000
• Frieza Form 1: 500,000
• Frieza Form 2: 1,000,000
• Frieza Form 3: 3,000,000
• Frieza Form 4: 12,000,000
• Zarbon: 23,000
• Doporia: 22,000
• Cui: 20,000
• Henchmen: 1,000-4,000
• Captain Ginyu: 120,000
• Recoome: 60,000
• Burter: 90,000
• Jeice: 85,000
• Guldo: 12,000
• Zaacro & Raiti: 500
• Space Kids: 10
• Porunga the Dragon: N/A
• Namek Elders: 1,000
• Namek Warriors: 1,000-4,000
• Dr. Brief: 12

Of course lots of these are laughable wrong. On other cases, it seems they intentionally altered established values in the series or databooks.

Something that popped my eyes around all these cards was this. Freeza's page reminds me of the V-Jump, as it states him as 1,000,000 and uses a lineart of the same image.

[dbgtFO]

This is a brief list (I did not took care of listing every single battle power, as I don't think they are relevant at all):

(book 1)
• Bulma (Saiyan Saga): 16
• Vegeta (Saiyan Saga): 7,500
• Kami: 2,000
• Karin: 1,700
• Master Rosh: 350
• The Ox King: 900
• Great King Yemma: 2,600
• Princess Snake: 900

• Goku (Freeza Saga): 300,000
• Super Saiyan Goku (Freeza Saga): 15,000,000
• Gohan (Freeza Saga): 18,000
• Krillin (Freeza Saga): 16,500
• Bulma (Freeza Saga): 16
• Vegeta (Freeza Saga): 3,600,000
• Nail: 400,000
• Piccolo (Post Nail): 800,000
• Freeza Form 4: 12,000,000
• Cui: 20,000
• Recoome: 60,000
• Burter: 90,000
• Jeice: 85,000
• Guldo: 12,000
• Namek Warriors: 1,000-4,000
• Dr. Brief: 12

WTF???!!!!! These are all wrong(Why even give Bulma and her father a BP in the first place?)!!!!!
...
From which country is this from?

• Chi-chi: 300

This is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to low

[Fox666]

Some of them are ridiculous, I know.

I don't understand why these secondary battle power sources (including video games) always try to contradict Ginyu statement that with 60,000 Goku should be able to defeat Reecome, Burter and Jeice.

However, they have Kaio at 3,500 which was stated in the Weekly Jump. The same goes for Zarbon and Dodoria, which are at 23,000 and 22,000 as stated in the Daizenshuu. So they at least partially used guides or the same source the guides used for these battle powers.

I wouldn't be surprised if some not so strange battle power from that list proved to be true in the end (i.e. Emma at 2,600).

[astrallite]

Bulma has BP 16?

She should be a 4.

[Herms]

I was looking around the Internet and found a site with very interesting scans of a certain card game which translted is called "Anime Adventure Game" of sort. Supposedly the two books are from 12/1999 and 2/2001 respectively. The game lists the characters battle powers.

That's not a card game, it's an unofficial table-top RPG that came out when DBZ was reaching the height of its popularity in the US. It pretty much just took info from whatever was available on the internet at the time (you can see they used the mistranslated 12/15 million BPs for Freeza and Goku), and made up the rest on its own. It's where the idea that Ghurd's race is named "Bas-jin" came from, for instance. Even taken just as a game, DesireCampbell has said that the game mechanics aren't very good.

[Fox666]

Yeah, sorry, it's an RPG.

They took it from the Internet? That's lame. But as far I can tell, the 12/15 million was also used in Dragonball Z Sagas videogame.

[Herms]

They took it from the Internet? That's lame. But as far I can tell, the 12/15 million was also used in Dragonball Z Sagas videogame.

Yeah, but they also probably just got those numbers from English fansites. The 12/15 million numbers originate in a mistranslation of the actual Daizenshuu 7 by influential English fansites back in the day.

[Goku100xKamehameha]

They took it from the Internet? That's lame. But as far I can tell, the 12/15 million was also used in Dragonball Z Sagas videogame.

Yeah, but they also probably just got those numbers from English fansites. The 12/15 million numbers originate in a mistranslation of the actual Daizenshuu 7 by influential English fansites back in the day.

So what is the real translation for SSj Goku's and Freeza's BP from Daizenshuu 7?

[Fox666]

120 and 150 millions

[p123]

Yea people are desperate to boost the Ginyu Force guys for some reason... Logically they should be somewhere around 40k, seeing as how Vegeta is close to 30k and has nothing for Reecome, in turn which all three of them have nothing for Goku who could have done that at 60k, 40 k probably seems the best fit... It would make Vegeta 75% of Reecome and Reecome 75% of Goku , or at least what Ginyu estimated a fighter to be that was able to do that to the Ginyu Force...


IMO the 120/150 million numbers are way too low.. After looking at things for a while it just doesn't add up, not to mention they should be way closer together as well...


Check this out....


Freeza doubles his power from 1st form to Initial Second Form... Then Freeza powers up significantly twice... Then he transforms and dominates someone who is suggested to be stronger than his 2nd Forms full power... Then he transforms once again, and needs to up his speed against someone who was confident against him previously, which would logically mean it's way above his 3rd form... This is what I'm using currently...



Freeza 5,400,000
Goku 5,000,000
InitialFreeza 4,000,000
Vegeta 3,750,000
3rd Form 2,750,000
Piccolo 1,500,000
Freeza 2nd 1,400,000
Piccolo Weights 1,250,000
Powered Up 2nd 1,200,000
Initial 2nd 1,060,000
1st Form 530,000



Seeing how much Freeza goes from FP 1st to FP 2nd, one would think the distance between 2 and 3 and 3 and true form, would each be a huge margin... For the Daiz numbers to work, you really have to squeeze them in there.... Then, Freeza and Vegeta are moving at a level that Piccolo cannot even see them...That speaks volumes of the gaps between Piccolo and them... Not to mention 3rd was way above Piccolo, and logically Vegeta / Freeza are way above 3rd... Freeza mentions that he had to up his speed against Vegeta, which suggests Vegeta was somewhere on his level previously... I think speed/power are always kept together, as we can see, people say they powered up, but never need to mention they speeded up as well. Logically when they power up, their speed increases as well, which I think should work vice versa as well. Freeza needed to increase his speed against Vegeta, which suggests they were close previously, seeing how Vegeta used all of his ki in that blast that Freeza kicked away, logically Freeza's power increased as well...


So as you can see, Goku/Freeza topping out in the 200-300 million range makes infinitely more sense than the Daiz numbers I would think, by going off of pure logic, and what we see in the manga alone./...

[dbgtFO]

IMO the 120/150 million numbers are way too low.. After looking at things for a while it just doesn't add up, not to mention they should be way closer together as well...


Check this out....


Freeza doubles his power from 1st form to Initial Second Form... Then Freeza powers up significantly twice... Then he transforms and dominates someone who is suggested to be stronger than his 2nd Forms full power... Then he transforms once again, and needs to up his speed against someone who was confident against him previously, which would logically mean it's way above his 3rd form... This is what I'm using currently...

To me it's different. I personally see Freeza referring to his over 1 million as the Full Power of that form(just like he said his BP was 530.000 against Nail) and nothing else, since Vegeta literally states that's impossible, so a 2 times boost didn't take place, but rather a boost higher than Zarbon's Transformation boost, since Vegeta seemed sure that Freeza couldn't get that strong, which to me implies, that he probably think they'd get the same boosts for their transformations.

Having Zarbon's transformation boost at 1,3*Regular BP and Freeza's transformation boost at 1,5*3rd Suppression works that out for me.

So basically it looks like this:
Zarbon = 23.000. - for reference..
- transformed = 29.900. - Vegeta decided to wear him down first, so Zarbon was indeed way closer to 30.000 Vegeta, than with his regular form.

Piccolo(Nail Fusion) Weighted = 966.000.
- Full Power = 1.330.000.
Freeza 1st transformation = 795.000. - his boost is bigger than Zarbon's.
- vs. Gohan(round 2) = 900.000.
- vs. Piccolo(round 2) = 1.060.000 - he claims that he's outputting his true ability now.
Freeza 2nd transformation = 2.120.000. - as soon as he's transformed Goku states he probably couldn't win against this current Freeza. Goku thought he reached his limits, so he didn't know he would get even stronger than 90.000, so this means Goku knew that this Freeza was at the very least far more powerful than a potential Kaiokenx10(900.000) and probably also slightly more powerful than a Kaiokenx20(1.800.000).
Freeza 3rd transformation = 3.180.000.
- exploding Goku's Kamehameha = 72.000.000. - Freeza was able to explode it, so he most certainly raised his BP for an instant there. I say he powered up to 60%.

[Fox666]

I don't think Piccolo was so more powerfull than Freeza second form. I personally prefer to put them without a different level, since the battle was unresolved.

The fight with Freeza contain lots of different battle powers, before reaching his final form

• Vegeta fought equally with Freeza, however in the end he was exhausted and Freeza not
• Freeza (1st form), battle power of 530,000
• Freeza (2nd form) initial power, far superior to Vegeta
• Gohan first rage
• Freeza (2nd form) increasess his power
• Piccolo with heavy cloth
• Freeza (2nd form) increases his power again
• Piccolo without heavy clothes
• Freeza (3rd form), far superior to Piccolo
• Freeza (4th form) initial power, stated to have increased his Ki a lot compared to the form prior to it
• Vegeta, whom believed he could take on Freeza 4th form
• Freeza (4th form) increases his power while fighting Vegeta and easily overcomes him
• Goku display a slightly superiority to Freeza with the power he was using at the time

In any case, Freeza 3rd cannot be over 3 million, since Freeza increased his Ki in his last form and Vegeta believed he could win

[Rocketman]

• Goku display a slightly superiority to Freeza with the power he was using at the time

This, I'm confused about. Goku was losing to Freeza in his regular form. Not as spectacularly as Vegeta was, but Freeza was overpowering him without taking any real damage in return.

Even after Goku's surprise attack that prompts Freeza to say the "nobody but my parent/s" line, Goku goes "But...that didn't hurt him at all...".

[Fox666]

That was later. But when Goku appeared for the first time, he overcomes Freeza. Freeza should increase his power at all time, don't?

[dbgtFO]

That was later. But when Goku appeared for the first time, he overcomes Freeza. Freeza should increase his power at all time, don't?

Anything up to Goku evading that paralyzing bomb attack was a warm up for Freeza & Goku. The real fight first began, when they went to the ground to fight, where Freeza was superior(when only using his legs and tail) until Goku grabbed his tail. Goku didn't really have an edge, when fighting no arms Freeza only at the end of that little experiment.

In any case I think that Vegeta was probably around initial True Form Freeza, since he could follow his movements, but when attacking him Freeza raised his speed instantly arguably along with his power, since Vegeta's strongest attack did nothing to him.

So I'd have initial True Form Freeza at 2.385.000 and after raising his speed and power = 3.180.000, while Vegeta would be 2.400.000.

[p123]

DBGTFO, strongly disagree with your 2nd form Freeza POV... It just doesn't make sense for Freeza to say, my power is over a million, but not right this second, let me power up twice and then it will be I promise! I think it's a blatant rejection of the manga material on your part, nowhere is it suggested to be correct, it's probably more about you trying to make the Daiz numbers work moreso than realistic manga knowledge... But alas you will try, and so will others, to make the Daiz numbers make sense, when they were never intended IMO to be anything more than a general guide, a general placement of powers, and was never meant to be taken so deathly seriously...