How strong is Kid Trunks and Goten?

[dbgtFO]

The implication is different to me. Trunks was the one who first brought up the idea of using a Ki attack...implying that he originally thinks she's strong enough to withstand such. Aside from Trunks' own held back blast Ki blast, I saw no implications made that the boys likely weren't at full power. I'm curious to hear them though.

In viz version the dialouge goes like this:

Trunks: "We're still at a disadvantage - We should go with chi blasts!"
Goten: "Chi?! Are you sure?"
Trunks: "Yeah! It won't kill HER! That's no. 18!"
#18 says some stuff...
Goten: "Don't use full power!"
Trunks: " I know!"
Taken from Vizbig 8.

In the danish version it's like this:

Trunks: "1 Ki blast and she's done for!"
Goten: "You're going to kill her!"
Trunks: "I'll not go all out!" It IS after all no. 18!"
#18 says some stuff...
Goten: "Don't use full power!"
Trunks: "I know!"
It seems Viz missed that line Trunks made, as jackjack pointed out, while at the same time the danish version missed out the "disadvantage" part

[jackjack]

Holding back is not using all that you are capable of. Anyway you slice it, anything less than 100% fulfills the point. If Trunks was already using 95% of his power then no, it doesn't necessarily mean that he might as well go all out. Simply put, he may feel 18 can handle 95% of his power and not 100%. Him using 95% wasn't meant to be taken literally by the way.

Ok, maybe look at it this way. It has to be a significant amount mainly because Trunks thinks the blast will kill her if he doesn't hold back its power, and the fact that it is weak enough for 18 to dodge suggests it isn't even close what Trunks is capable of (since going from dodging a blast to getting wrecked by one is a pretty big difference if you ask me). Simply put, if 18 can barely dodge Trunks' 95%, then she sure as hell won't get killed by 100% of the same Trunks. And I honestly don't even know what you are trying to get at; if she's at around 95% of Trunks, then Trunks is still stronger, no?

The implication is different to me. Trunks was the one who first brought up the idea of using a Ki attack...implying that he originally thinks she's strong enough to withstand such.

You know what, you've got to see the original quotes (from Herms, perhaps?), because Trunks not only implies a powerful blast will kill her, he says they are still impeded by that giant outfit (with no leg usage, I might add) even after going SSJ, so he has no choice but to use ki attacks.

Aside from Trunks' own held back blast Ki blast, I saw no implications made that the boys likely weren't at full power. I'm curious to hear them though.

They didn't power up like they did when Goku asked them to go all out. Goku and Gohan powered up like that, too, when they went 100% against Cell. And the boys thinking it would surprise people gives the impression that they had never revealed their true strength to anyone other than themselves.

[Senzu_Bean]

I'm pretty sure the Danish version isn't correct. Trunks is, after all, implying #18 is nothing special which contradicts the original.

The fact is they still think they are at a disadvantage in Super Saiyan, even though if they are that enormously stronger than her, even with no leg usage, they would demolish her. And I don't think they want to injure her, thus the don't use full power line.

[dbgtFO]

I'm pretty sure the Danish version isn't correct. Trunks is, after all, implying #18 is nothing special which contradicts the original.

The fact is they still think they are at a disadvantage in Super Saiyan, even though if they are that enormously stronger than her, even with no leg usage, they would demolish her. And I don't think they want to injure her, thus the don't use full power line.

Trunks is one who suggests they should control the power of the blast (this line is missing in Viz for some reason), so she won't die, implying it would have killed her otherwise, and on top of all of this, there are implications that the boys likely aren't even at full power.

I wonder, where jackjack got it from then, considering he didn't know about my version.
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/908/014jm.jpg
EDIT: And it seems like you had something to say below me, but your comment isn't showing, so you deleted it?

[jackjack]

I'm about 99% sure it's mentioned in the original. But hopefully, Herms comes by (it would save us from a lot of meaningless debates, I tell ya).

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Wow! The Danish lines are pretty interesting. Trunks seemed pretty sure of himself there.

[lash]

Ok, maybe look at it this way. It has to be a significant amount mainly because Trunks thinks the blast will kill her if he doesn't hold back its power, and the fact that it is weak enough for 18 to dodge suggests it isn't even close what Trunks is capable of (since going from dodging a blast to getting wrecked by one is a pretty big difference if you ask me). Simply put, if 18 can barely dodge Trunks' 95%, then she sure as hell won't get killed by 100% of the same Trunks.

Speed of a Ki attack doesn't necessarily have to be proportional to its strength. Krillin in the saiyan arc showed this.

And I honestly don't even know what you are trying to get at; if she's at around 95% of Trunks, then Trunks is still stronger, no?

18 dodged it. Sure it was a strong attack and even though she considered it dangerous, we don't know exactly what degree of damage it would have inflicted on her. In other words, she could still be above its power.

You know what, you've got to see the original quotes (from Herms, perhaps?), because Trunks not only implies a powerful blast will kill her, he says they are still impeded by that giant outfit (with no leg usage, I might add) even after going SSJ, so he has no choice but to use ki attacks.

You are right.

They didn't power up like they did when Goku asked them to go all out. Goku and Gohan powered up like that, too, when they went 100% against Cell. And the boys thinking it would surprise people gives the impression that they had never revealed their true strength to anyone other than themselves.

Interesting point. I agree with it.

I'm pretty sure the Danish version isn't correct. Trunks is, after all, implying #18 is nothing special which contradicts the original.
The fact is they still think they are at a disadvantage in Super Saiyan, even though if they are that enormously stronger than her, even with no leg usage, they would demolish her. And I don't think they want to injure her, thus the don't use full power line.

Yeah Trunks considers her special in the sense that he thinks she can handle a held back attack from him...but that's basically it.

I'm about 99% sure it's mentioned in the original. But hopefully, Herms comes by (it would save us from a lot of meaningless debates, I tell ya).

Trunks: “Alright! Shall we turn into [Super Saiyans]?”
Goten: “Yeah!”
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18.”

That "do it appropriately" part does sound like they have to hold back not to kill her (other ways to translate it would be 'suitably', 'befittingly', or 'adequately').

Yes, you were right.
The Danish version was definitely the least accurate here.


Anyway, considering:
-Trunks basically implies that if he doesn't hold his blast back that he'd Kill 18.
-Goten is actually worried for her.
-Along with the held back blast, the Boys might not have even been at full power...
-18 was sweating her ass off in fear after the attack, making a sigh even after the threat was removed. This is 18 we're talking about. I don't recall her ever doing that to a fighter weaker than her. It's not like she got damaged either.

I can now firmly conclude that the boys as SSJs definitely surpass 18.

[SonGokuh]

Ok, maybe look at it this way. It has to be a significant amount mainly because Trunks thinks the blast will kill her if he doesn't hold back its power, and the fact that it is weak enough for 18 to dodge suggests it isn't even close what Trunks is capable of (since going from dodging a blast to getting wrecked by one is a pretty big difference if you ask me). Simply put, if 18 can barely dodge Trunks' 95%, then she sure as hell won't get killed by 100% of the same Trunks.

Speed of a Ki attack doesn't necessarily have to be proportional to its strength. Krillin in the saiyan arc showed this.

And I honestly don't even know what you are trying to get at; if she's at around 95% of Trunks, then Trunks is still stronger, no?

18 dodged it. Sure it was a strong attack and even though she considered it dangerous, we don't know exactly what degree of damage it would have inflicted on her. In other words, she could still be above its power.

You know what, you've got to see the original quotes (from Herms, perhaps?), because Trunks not only implies a powerful blast will kill her, he says they are still impeded by that giant outfit (with no leg usage, I might add) even after going SSJ, so he has no choice but to use ki attacks.

You are right.

They didn't power up like they did when Goku asked them to go all out. Goku and Gohan powered up like that, too, when they went 100% against Cell. And the boys thinking it would surprise people gives the impression that they had never revealed their true strength to anyone other than themselves.

Interesting point. I agree with it.

I'm pretty sure the Danish version isn't correct. Trunks is, after all, implying #18 is nothing special which contradicts the original.
The fact is they still think they are at a disadvantage in Super Saiyan, even though if they are that enormously stronger than her, even with no leg usage, they would demolish her. And I don't think they want to injure her, thus the don't use full power line.

Yeah Trunks considers her special in the sense that he thinks she can handle a held back attack from him...but that's basically it.

I'm about 99% sure it's mentioned in the original. But hopefully, Herms comes by (it would save us from a lot of meaningless debates, I tell ya).

Trunks: “Alright! Shall we turn into [Super Saiyans]?”
Goten: “Yeah!”
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18.”

That "do it appropriately" part does sound like they have to hold back not to kill her (other ways to translate it would be 'suitably', 'befittingly', or 'adequately').

Yes, you were right.
The Danish version was definitely the least accurate here.


Anyway, considering:
-Trunks basically implies that if he doesn't hold his blast back that he'd Kill 18.
-Goten is actually worried for her.
-Along with the held back blast, the Boys might not have even been at full power...
-18 was sweating her ass off in fear after the attack, making a sigh even after the threat was removed. This is 18 we're talking about. I don't recall her ever doing that to a fighter weaker than her. It's not like she got damaged either.

I can now firmly conclude that the boys as SSJs definitely surpass 18.

Is it crazy that I find this conclusion cringe-worthy?

[Savage68]

Is it crazy that I find this conclusion cringe-worthy?

I may be even crazier for finding your cringing cringe-worthy.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Really, in what universe could there be any other logical conclusion, here?

[SonGokuh]

Really, in what universe could there be any other logical conclusion, here?

I agree, but just because something makes sense doesn't mean I have to like it.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Hey, the guys from the last arc get left in the dust by the important characters. That's how the series has always worked. You might as well be complaining about everybody surpassing Raditz, during the Saiyan arc.

[SonGokuh]

Hey, the guys from the last arc get left in the dust by the important characters. That's how the series has always worked. You might as well be complaining about everybody surpassing Raditz, during the Saiyan arc.

I'm slightly annoyed by Goten and Trunks surpassing their fathers' SSJ strength after three years of harsh training. I remember when being an SSJ actually meant something. *tear* *gruff, manly sob*

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Hell, Trunks probably surpassed his future self as an 8-year-old. Ya gotta remember, it's a work of fiction!

[painfuldeath]

One little detail people have been forgetting is that C18 wasn't really scared of what they could do to her but what they could do to the immediate surroundings. She decided to end the fight quickly to avoid them from hurting anyone.

I highly doubt they could have defeated her if she was really fighting at the same level as she was while fighting Vegeta. I believe that in their base forms they are probably weaker than Gohan was during the Android saga. As SS they are somewhere around Vegeta's strength when he fought C18, a little weaker even.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

One little detail people have been forgetting is that C18 wasn't really scared of what they could do to her but what they could do to the immediate surroundings. She decided to end the fight quickly to avoid them from hurting anyone.

How exactly can we forget a detail that you just made up?!

[jackjack]

Having to end the fight by revealing Mighty Mask's identity gives the impression that she knows she can't win.

Trunks: “Alright! Shall we turn into [Super Saiyans]?”
Goten: “Yeah!”
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18.”

That "do it appropriately" part does sound like they have to hold back not to kill her (other ways to translate it would be 'suitably', 'befittingly', or 'adequately').

The original makes all the difference.

[hleV]

They're FPSSJs alright. Wouldn't that put them at least around Cell Games Vegeta's level? I doubt they could even go SSJ if their base BP was much lower than 3,000,000. Vegeta's base was much weaker than Goku's when Goku first became SSJ against Freeza, however when Vegeta has shown up as SSJ, he was somewhat even stronger than SSJ Goku, which would imply that either Vegeta trained like hell after achieving SSJ or he was required high BP like 3,000,000 to ascend.

[jackjack]

-Trunks basically implies that if he doesn't hold his blast back that he'd Kill 18.

The Japanese version makes it awefully clear, doesn't it? lol

-Goten is actually worried for her.

He's so worried he has to remind Trunks not to make it too powerful.

-Along with the held back blast, the Boys might not have even been at full power...

Yep, and going by Piccolo's reaction when he sees their full power, I'd say they aren't at full power during Vegeta's self-sacrificing fight, either. They simply just transform, like when fighting 18 or when Goku first asks them to go Super Saiyan.

-18 was sweating her ass off in fear after the attack, making a sigh even after the threat was removed. This is 18 we're talking about. I don't recall her ever doing that to a fighter weaker than her. It's not like she got damaged either.

Exactly, and a held back attack at that. After taking Vegeta's BBA head on, she basically calls Vegeta weak (whereas she thinks the boys are strong) while having a smile on her face, which speaks for itself, yeah.

As SS they are somewhere around Vegeta's strength when he fought C18, a little weaker even.

See above.

[Kaboom]

They're FPSSJs alright. Wouldn't that put them at least around Cell Games Vegeta's level?

There's no such set "minimum" for things like that.