Why all the hate with Kai??

[Rory]

'Cause it's 2010, and they still can't make the show look as good as it did in the Dragon Box footage..

[MetalMadness]

I can't for the life of me understand how anybody would PREFER to watch opponents stare at each other, grunt, while dust settles, and clouds move. I cannot understand why anybody would prefer to have a match cut off to hear commentary from an unimportant, secondary character, and they always say the same thing every single fight: So fast, so strong, wow, etc etc.

I can't understand why anybody would prefer to see the cuts to Mr. Satan and friends during the Cell Games, commenting on how it's a trick, and it's not real. Literally HALF of a Cell games Z episode would be commentary from Mr. Satan and friends. It's not even an exaggeration.


Z is so ridden with filler I find it honestly unwatchable now. As a kid I didn't mind but now I notice that it really takes SO LONG for something to actually happen.

[Fox666]

They did not even took care in removing the fillers or made the series fast pacing, that was just a marketing strategy of sort to illude fans.

Um, no, while the editing hasn't always been brilliant for Kai, it's been more than competent. To the point where arguing that Kai is sloppy is utterly moot and downright hypocritical. As not only is Kai faster paced, the story is more coherent than the Z adaption ever was.

Since they are curring some fillers, it would be technically impossible to not be more faster or coherent than the old anime.

However, that is far from being "competent" in my terms. I could see some fan work doing better when it comes to filler erasion.

Fillers stretch the series and increase profit. I can imagine why Toei hadn't gone wild in removing fillers...

[VegettoEX]

Struggling to understand how a dissection showing how slopping the editing may be in any given episode of Kai would make me hypocritical.

What am I contradicting in myself? Did I make a bad edit in a podcast episode, or something?

[AoiKageNoChikara]

Geez I needed that Sleep-time...

Back to the Argument...

To Cipher

I can agree with that on the first arcs of Original Dragonball, but things in plot and story got better around Piccolo Daimaoh Arc, But then again you´re kind of Downgrading Both Dragonball Z Series and it´s score with that. And I don´t like that. (true I even Called Z´s Score Sounding Generic in comparation to all of kikuchi´s works, but I did Say Shunsuke was a genius Scoring it too And The First 3 movies prove it)

To Fox666 (what an interesting and ackward choice of numbers )

From what I know, They digitally retrace every frame, someone correct me if I´m wrong but that´s how They do Kai, now they retrace everything right? meaning they have to retrace every drawing they have already made, I think you need 12 Drawings per second in order for the animation to be fluid, now a dragonball kai episode has 20+ minutes, someone correct if I´m wrong with that, but To me it sounds like a hard work.

Now for the filler thing, I have some experience editing Footage and of course chopping out some time on that (filler if you like ) and that´s a hard thing, meaning it must be harder for Kai, and now you can´t really take out Everything that is called "Filler" Because some fillers are made to fill a little time between moments in the anime, and if people already complain about it beign too fast, how much more it would be if they cut out everything?

Again I see people beign too unfair to Kai and that... Reallly dissapoints me, I respect all your opinions.... but some are just too much to take...

[Fox666]

I don't care about people who complaint about it being "way too fast" or "I like the fillers". These should simply watch the old anime. However, once they announce the will remake the series for HD with no fillers, I expected something way better.

It's not really hard or expensive to create vetorial lines over each frame, especially in the current era which we have touch screens kind of stuff. It certainly is not even 1% of the production cost of the animation.

Here is a picture of Dragon Ball Kai production:



And at any rate it should be relative easy to cut fillers. Get a manga in your hands, compare the panels, only use scenes that are respective to them. I don't see why Kai couldn't be identical to the manga. Or Toei did not want (stretched series = more profit) or they are doing a small investment (I mean, even smaller).

I can only think of Kai as a cheap production to give a false sensation of "HD" for the series. And to fit widescreen aspect ratio they simply cut off the edges...

[AoiKageNoChikara]

I don't care about people who complaint about it being "way too fast" or "I like the fillers". These should simply watch the old anime. However, once they announce the will remake the series for HD with no fillers, I expected something way better.

It's not really hard or expensive to create vetorial lines over each frame, especially in the current era which we have touch screens kind of stuff. It certainly is not even 1% of the production cost of the animation.

Here is a picture of Dragon Ball Kai production:



And at any rate it should be relative easy to cut fillers. Get a manga in your hands, compare the panels, only use scenes that are respective to them. I don't see why Kai couldn't be identical to the manga. Or Toei did not want (stretched series = more profit) or they are doing a small investment (I mean, even smaller).

I can only think of Kai as a cheap production to give a false sensation of "HD" for the series. And to fit widescreen aspect ratio they simply cut off the edges...

That´s the exact, pic of the Video I saw

Well then, draw those vectorial lines or wharever for more than 20 minutes 12 drawings per second, I myself can´t even draw a line correctly and to me if you can do that alone you are worthy of respect and I admire you, but if anything it must be time consuming and make it for more than 50 episodes, for second, for every opened mouth, I don´t think it´s easy.

Like I said, if it´s identical to the manga, now that would be fast, and if people already complain with Kai, about that it´s too fast, I don´t want that, since now I can see people do complain that it´s not fast enough (you), really, it´s such a shame people find ANYTHING to complain. really you guys search every single detail to not like about Kai you say some say it´s too fast and now that it should be faster? when people already think it´s too fast? think of the franchise itself not I myself don´t know what to think now, looks like everyone seems to make an unreal reasearch for disliking Kai.

Ok, then you thoght it was a remake?... Geez where did people get that Idea? They clearly said it´s a remastering in HD (not a false HD like you say, go an watch Kai in a Blu ray and an HDTV, even the Dvd quality looks perfectly clear to me, I don´t get how can you complain about the quality) maybe... yeah this should be why everyone is upset about Kai, after it´s beign talk everywhere, even here, all you freaking want is a freaking brand new series XD that´s all, I bet my money they get a new series and complain right away, just like happened to Plan To Eradicate the Super Saiyans, all people wished Kai was like the Intro, now we got a new movie, and suddendly People find the animation bad at all points and prefer the old, I myself prefer the Old as matter of lenght, but I wouldn´t even dare to complain about anything else, who knows, maybe dragonball will die out if fans start complaining about every new merchandise.

[MR.Mark]

Since they are curring some fillers, it would be technically impossible to not be more faster or coherent than the old anime.

However, that is far from being "competent" in my terms. I could see some fan work doing better when it comes to filler erasion.

Fillers stretch the series and increase profit. I can imagine why Toei hadn't gone wild in removing fillers...

The point is, despite the "hack job" that Kai is, it actually manages to be less sloppy in presentation than the Z anime managed to be, so that's really saying something. Hence why it's a little hypocritical to call Kai "sloppy" in comparison to Dragon Ball Z.

As for the "fillers", Toei has done a good job cutting 98% of pure crap while keeping just enough so it's not lightning fast.
It's not perfect all the time, there's instances where they can't cut around stuff etc, but by and large, Kai is competently edited.

Music and acting preferences from Z to Kai is one thing, but story presentation and pacing? It's ludicrous to suggest that DBZ is less of a inconsistent mess than Kai will ever hope to be.

[Fox666]

Well then, draw those vectorial lines or wharever for more than 20 minutes 12 drawings per second, I myself can´t even draw a line correctly and to me if you can do that alone you are worthy of respect and I admire you, but if anything it must be time consuming and make it for more than 50 episodes, for second, for every opened mouth, I don´t think it´s easy.

There is a difference beetween a fan doing it, and a animation company. The animation of a single episode, made by a single fan, would take 1,000 years. However, once you put a prodution company with professionals involved, it is very different.

And if all that need to be done is vetorial lines over the old animation? For a production company it is nothing. Very cheap investment.

Like I said, if it´s identical to the manga, now that would be fast, and if people already complain with Kai, about that it´s too fast, I don´t want that, since now I can see people do complain that it´s not fast enough (you), really, it´s such a shame people find ANYTHING to complain. really you guys search every single detail to not like about Kai you say some say it´s too fast and now that it should be faster? when people already think it´s too fast? think of the franchise itself not I myself don´t know what to think now, looks like everyone seems to make an unreal reasearch for disliking Kai.

"You guys" who?

Some people like the old animation. They did not like Kai because it's different. However I don't like it because it's supposed to cut the fillers, which it doesn't at all.

Ok, then you thoght it was a remake?... Geez where did people get that Idea? They clearly said it´s a remastering in HD (not a false HD like you say, go an watch Kai in a Blu ray and an HDTV, even the Dvd quality looks perfectly clear to me, I don´t get how can you complain about the quality) maybe... yeah this should be why everyone is upset about Kai, after it´s beign talk everywhere, even here, all you freaking want is a freaking brand new series XD that´s all, I bet my money they get a new series and complain right away, just like happened to Plan To Eradicate the Super Saiyans, all people wished Kai was like the Intro, now we got a new movie, and suddendly People find the animation bad at all points and prefer the old, I myself prefer the Old as matter of lenght, but I wouldn´t even dare to complain about anything else, who knows, maybe dragonball will die out if fans start complaining about every new merchandise.

You got me, you are right about that. I WOULD complaint about a new animation.

This is because current era animation is way cheaper than what animes used to be. Of course this is not just japanese animation that suffer with quality decay.

I would like to see a GOOD modern animation out there. A OVA series would be the ideal. But I am just dreaming, there is no way Toei would waste money if fans will watch anything in the end, they will forever use their limited animation techniques.

[Gaffer Tape]

Again I see people beign too unfair to Kai and that... Reallly dissapoints me, I respect all your opinions.... but some are just too much to take...

After having perused this thread for a while, it's beginning to occur to me that you see any criticism of Kai as "unfair," and that the only "fair" opinion is one that loves Kai as much as your own. You were certainly smart to come out of the insanity of YouTube. That place is nuts, and the majority of people can't do anything without insulting other people's viewpoints, you're right. But that doesn't mean that everyone who disagrees with you is one of those. Why do you need the validation of everyone else in order to love Kai? Love it. Don't let anyone's dissenting opinion change that for you. But nearly every dissenter has explained their opinions in well-written and well-thought out posts, so to just dismiss them as "unfair" or based solely on "nostalgia" is just as annoying to this side as all the "herp de derp" comments on YouTube are to you.

[AoiKageNoChikara]

To Fox666

"There is a difference beetween a fan doing it, and a animation company. The animation of a single episode, made by a single fan, would take 1,000 years. However, once you put a prodution company with professionals involved, it is very different.

And if all that need to be done is vetorial lines over the old animation? For a production company it is nothing. Very cheap investment."

Well played, I agree on that But Like They say "The 1% of the effort of a Hundred is better than the 100% of the effort of one" Kai may not be the greatest thing ever, but certainly it´s not the trash like everyone makes of it (like I have said over and over here xD) and atleast to me, it´s worth my money, a Dbkai 1 season part one in amazon is like 20 bucks, that´s a great deal to me and for a High Quality action packed fast version of my favorite anime, Hell I love the Idea, but who cares? I`m still gonna get the Dragon Boxes too!

""You guys" who?

Some people like the old animation. They did not like Kai because it's different. However I don't like it because it's supposed to cut the fillers, which it doesn't at all."

As a matter of fact I was talking about not only you, but anyone who greatly dislikes Kai for an unfair reason now you say it doesn't even cuts out the filler but I guess Saiyan Saga Ending at Ep 16 while Z is in it still at 35 is not good enough

"You got me, you are right about that. I WOULD complaint about a new animation.

This is because current era animation is way cheaper than what animes used to be. Of course this is not just japanese animation that suffer with quality decay.

I would like to see a GOOD modern animation out there. A OVA series would be the ideal. But I am just dreaming, there is no way Toei would waste money if fans will watch anything in the end, they will forever use their limited animation techniques."

I... kind of agree with that, Naruto Animation, One piece animation sometimes are extremely bad, don't get me wrong I love naruto(but hate fillers) and one piece(hate terrible drawings) but there's something old anime has, I mean like a little charm... It's such a different feeling watching, it's not the same Watching Naruto than Watching Yuyu Hakusho (90's I think but still an oldie) ya got me?

To Gaffer Tape...

Dude, I would care less if this was your favorite anime list...

1: Dragonball Z
2: Code Geass
3: One Piece
4: Hokuto No Ken
......
..........
.........
................
10: Dragonball Kai

I do agree it's such a relief beign here rather than Youtube, I respect Opinions, but you won't deny some people are beign extremely unfair to Kai, I watched the First Episode the first Saturday after the begining of the broadcasting in japan on Youtube and I thought it was decent I loved the Way they presented Db to all viewers, Dragon Soul Orchestra was amazing, The Score On Raditz's Arrival, Raditz on Kame house, were great, all the others decent for the First Episode, and the pacing was real great 2 as fast as Z, But guess what I found? Just in the first episode, "OMG THE MUSIC SUCKS NOTHING MEMORABLE"... geez! just the first episode and people complain it's not memorable? don't you think that's unfair? also calling this score generic and bad and not fitting to DB while they don't even try to like it just because it's not kikuchi? Kikuchi's Score grew on people because they watched it for years, not because it was the best score ever, same to any other anime, that's how Kai's Score Grew on me, I do like Kikuchi Better Sometimes, but it's of a fool to say Kenji's not done a great work.

If you don't let it grow on you, you will hate it, tell me, do you like when a faulconer fan craps over the original japanese score? Kai's Score is beign performed by a larger orchestra than Z, The compositions are good, and I don't watch to downgrade kikuchi's score to it, but I also don't like DBkai' Score beign Downgraded.

And don't Worry, No ones opinion breaks the one I have for me, I'm not trying put anyone here like "unfair" or "Nostalgia based" But that's what I've been seeing, for there's no good point of Kai to them, and they do say that old one for them was better so, there must be a little nostalgia fact there.

But I guess I might have been a little harsh too, remember I began the Thread very calmed and respecting everyone, but Things got a bit more serious with everyone disliking Kai and Glorifying all the Might of the Original Version up to infinity.

and by the way, I don't mind Critism, I have agreed with some things here, just that Some are just too much, Like I agree Z Score is more memorable, Kai's score needs to be expanded more to be a whole lot memorable, Though I like Kai's score much more than kikuchi, THere's plenty of a vast selection of Goods in Z's Score.

Also i agree that some reanimated scenes look horrid, but some look very great, and Last time I checked on an HD Fullscreen clip of Kai, one of those horrid shots was looking pretty decent.

Anyways, I do Accept Criticism, Just that Here I have found some over the top Criticism.

By the way, thanks to all Who Agrees with me partially or completely

[Fox666]

I... kind of agree with that, Naruto Animation, One piece animation sometimes are extremely bad, don't get me wrong I love naruto(but hate fillers) and one piece(hate terrible drawings) but there's something old anime has, I mean like a little charm... It's such a different feeling watching, it's not the same Watching Naruto than Watching Yuyu Hakusho (90's I think but still an oldie) ya got me?

Of course I do! Yuyu Hakusho animation is far superior to Naruto or One Piece shitty animations. But the producers mind is quite simply to understand. They decrease the quality as a "test", and if the audience remains the same, they will leave it like that.

It doesn't matter how popular One Piece or Naruto gets, they really don't mind in making a decent animation. I recommend anyone to read the manga instead, it's a different level.

[MR.Mark]

However I don't like it because it's supposed to cut the fillers, which it doesn't at all.

[Fox666]

It only cut part of the fillers. It should cut all of them.

[JulieYBM]

It only cut part of the fillers. It should cut all of them.

That would create plot holes.

[MR.Mark]

It's impossible to completely cut all of the filler using the old Z animation, Like Bulma and the dinosaurs on namek etc. However Toei has cut so much already that it's already a vast improvement anyway.

'Cause it's 2010, and they still can't make the show look as good as it did in the Dragon Box footage..

Well I was recently watching the episode where Piccolo was resurrected on my Kai Blu-ray, and I must say I strongly disagree with that.

It only cut part of the fillers. It should cut all of them.

That would create plot holes.

Exactly, if I wanted to see plot holes (A LOT OF THEM) I'd watch Dragon Ball Z.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

It only cut part of the fillers. It should cut all of them.

If you want to get technical, wouldn't a filler-free version of DBZ be something like a picture drama? (Still frames with dialogue and music in the background.)

Also, filler is already plural, you don't need to write "fillers."

[Ahiru77]

Some filler should be kept, otherwise it would seem as if the show can't chill for a moment.

[DemonRin]

Personally, to me, Kai is the definitive anime viewing experience for the Dragon Ball Story post Piccolo Jr. I have my Kanzenban, and they will always be the alpha and the omega, but now if I want to watch this material Animated, it has to be Kai.

I have ALWAYS hated the filler. Hated it with a bloody passion. I don't understand why the Freeza fight has to take 20 episodes. I really REALLY do not.
The Freeza arc was paced perfectly in Kai, it did not feel like it took too long at all, nor did it ever feel really rushed to me.

I used to miss the Kikuchi score to be honest, but then I did something. I stopped paying so much attention to it. When I started watching Kai, I knew before hand the music was going to be different, so I paid attention to it. That was a mistake. When I did that, I began to judge the music seperately from the overall show and directly against the Kikuchi score. "Is this track as memorable as Kikuchi?" "Kikuchi's track was better here" etc. The point of a score is to underlay and convey the emotion of the action and dialog. The problem was, I was paying attention to the music, it was taking the forefront over the action and the dialog. When I stopped doing that and just relaxed and watched the show, the music was much, MUCH Better to me. Because I viewed Kai as its own beast, instead of constantly asking myself "Do I think this lives up to my memories of Kikuchi?"

I think a lot of people are simply too ingrained with Kikuchi's music to really give Yamamoto's a chance. It's really a repeat of the Bruce Faulconer situation. Dubbies have been listening to Faulconer for YEARS, so they hear something new and they are instantly predicated not to like it because it's not the same as the way they fell in love with it. Same deal, some of us have been watching DBZ with Kikuchi for a decade or more. Some people simply can't step outside that box and try to look past that, even just for this one thing.

Also, about the reanimated footage. I actually notice it a LOT Less on my Blu-rays and on Nicktoons. On rips from the Japanese version, they stand out like a sore thumb, but on the actual Blu-rays and on the Nicktoons airings/simulcast, I notice them less. I still see them mind, it's just nowhere near as jarring.

In the end, Kai does two things I've wanted from this series for a LONG time. On the one hand, it Cuts down the filler to a level where the pacing feels really perfect to me. I'm never really sitting there going "Ok, uuuh... lets just get to the good stuff already!" No Goddamn 20 episode Freeza fight.
Second, it gave FUNimation a chance to go back and do the Dragon Ball Z dub they should have done from square 1. It's not perfect, but it's actually REALLY GOOD! And that's saying something, considering it's English Dragon Ball.

[Ultimate_DB_Fan]

For me, I don't hate Kai. I think it's great that a dub many people can enjoy is being made.

With that said, I've made it a rule to watch all the latest, new episodes that'll air on Nicktoons so I can hear the performances, regardless of the fact that it's the edited version.

Simply put, however, I don't fully support Kai for a couple of reasons:

1. I don't hate a lot of the filler. In some ways, it beefed up the story & gave characters some development. Besides, the more Dragon Ball, the better.

2. While I think some of the new voice actors are good, they're not my prefered cast. Rial just ain't my Bulma (she's a bit high-pitced, for my taste), & the same applies to Ayres. He's superb, but he ain't my Freeza.

3. Regardless of the season sets' flaws, it's not like they DON'T have the sub version available for when I wanna switch to that.

The DBoxes will hopefully be mine at some point, just not right now. I'm into other things.