.

[Fox666]

Yeah, Goku is not the kind to run from an enemy...

[Piccolo Daimao]

Darkprince, I gotta disagree. Nature calls, so I'll re-post from an earlier thread:

Fact is, Gotenks was stronger than Buu, because he out-performed Buu, and nothing suggests that either of them held back. Buu was actually trying to fight back, and still ended up having the same amount of power -- if not, more -- thrown right back at him. IIRC, Piccolo mentions how Buu's mental state is on the fritz because he's never fought anyone with strength like Gotenks', and that he was desperate / going all-out.

When Super Buu's rattling off every thought that went through his mind to Gohan, did he mention anything about handling Gotenks with kid gloves? I'm not 100%, but I'm pretty darn sure that he didn't. And like I mentioned before, it wouldn't have done any good for Buu to allow someone that's supposedly weaker than himself to inflict as much damage as he did (the Volleyball, the Death Missile Chain, the mouth blast, and the melee attacks near the end). If the pink guy wanted to stall, he could've done so without seemingly losing his battle for no apparent reason.

Yeah, I agree with that. Even though Super Boo said that he didn't want anyone to be stronger than him, when two characters are so equal, it's hard to tell exactly who's stronger. Gohan, however, was beating Boo's ass from the start.

[dbgtFO]

I like your idea on Goku/Kid/Super DBGTOFO

How they equal Goku/Piccoo/Raditz scenario.


I am starting to warm up to Goku >= Kid Buu more and more...

Super Buu could plausibly be ridicolousy stronger than Goku. I think a lot of people can't help but overrate Goku, it is hard especially with his new form. But judging by him not wanting to have anything to do with Super buu, yet doesn't see a problem taking on Raditz, I think Super's advantage over Goku being in the Raditz range or above wouldn't be a big deal considering the comparison of those quotes..

As Fox666 already said, Goku isn't the one to run away, and when confronted by Super Buu, he doesn't run away, but decides, that they'll have to beat him there, which Super Buu of course lol's at.
Don't forget, that he initially didn't have high hopes of defeating Raditz either, but after Raditz showed them how fast he was, Goku was struck with fear.

[p123]

That's only because Goku's smart enough not to run. You cannot outrun a vastly superior opponenet, if we know that, Goku of all people should know that. Goku is like wait timeout, and then puts his hands up and has basically gone fetal.

This is in regards to Goku vs Buutenks, but on Goku vs Super Buu, Goku seemingly thought he could hurt him being inside of him and as a SSJ of all things lol. Note how Goku never attempts to fight Super Buu at all, more or less tries to get an advantage from destroying one from the inside.


And your right, Goku did not know the full extent of Raditz power until they fought.


I would think Super Buu is a huge gap though. If we go by SEG boost, SSJ3 Gotenks is going to be retartedly stronger than Goku...


It appears that SSJ Gotenks Pre could very well be pretty close to SSJ3 Goku. And if Goku be stronger, it's not going to be by leaps and bounds you know? So logically SSJ Gotenks Post is much stronger than that, and if we use a 4x boost for Goku why not for Gotenks? Why do we feel the need to nerf even Gotenks transformations? His base strength is one thing, which is very hard to tell, but his SSJ/SSJ3 strength should be similar boost to Goku's SSJ/SSJ3 don't you think?

[dbgtFO]

It appears that SSJ Gotenks Pre could very well be pretty close to SSJ3 Goku. And if Goku be stronger, it's not going to be by leaps and bounds you know? So logically SSJ Gotenks Post is much stronger than that, and if we use a 4x boost for Goku why not for Gotenks? Why do we feel the need to nerf even Gotenks transformations? His base strength is one thing, which is very hard to tell, but his SSJ/SSJ3 strength should be similar boost to Goku's SSJ/SSJ3 don't you think?

This coming from the guy, who thought it was too ridiculous for his tastes and therefore cut them in ½ in his personal power levels??

IMO Gotenks was not stronger, than Goku before he reached SSJ 3. Everything about his power is simply how one would interpret the manga, since nothing concrete is stated about how he compares to the other good guys. It's first, when Gohan shows up, that Trunks admits, that Gotenks is a little weaker, than Gohan.

[p123]

Thats what I mean DB... I know how biased I even am on that issue. If I even start coming up with things like that to nerf Gotenks I can only imagine what the majority of the fandom is doing.

SSJ Gotenks Pre Rosat should be somewhere around SSJ3 Goku. Piccolo seems to think that SSJ Gotenks could be Fat Buu, also he thought that if Goku went all out he could have beat Fat Buu. So I think they should be somewhere around each other.


SSJ Gotenks Post Rosat at a minimum should be at least as strong as SSJ3 Goku. He did power up a good deal, and this is bare minimum here.


One could contest that Gotenks doesn't have SSJ2, but still even at it's most minimum restraints without changing boosts, and using SSJ3 as a 4x boost for Goku, then SSJ3 Gotenks being 4x stronger than SSJ3 Goku is totally valid and plausible.

And if you think Gotenks does have SSJ2, then an 8x boost over Goku would be plausible as well.

So, I think we are all biased here, we need to look at Gotenks without any constraints. Sure his Base power should be highly debated, but his SSJ power pre or post should be around SSJ3 Goku I would think...

[Fox666]

Didn't we saw Gotenks turning SSJ2 before going SSJ3?

[p123]

Yes I think Gotenks has SSJ2 and was showcased right there. It's just that people hold onto Trunks we found a level above SSJ quote very dearly.

But it seems SSJ/SSJ2 apparently are confused for each other by Kaioshin and Trunks I would guess.

I think its illogical for Gotenks to have SSJ3 and not SSJ2, but that's just me, some people can live with that.

Problem is, now instead of making Gotenks just 4x stronger, making him 8x stronger than SSJ3 Goku causes big problems in the fandom.


I'm going to try to look at Gotenks again without any bias, it's just so damn hard with all the play fighting, and all . But I will try one more time...

[hleV]

SSJ3 Gotenks being around 8x stronger than SSJ3 Goku, which I think he is, would imply that Super Buu is hell a lot stronger than Kid Buu, unless we finally start believing, which I'd like to, that SSJ3 Gotenks was owning Super Buu pretty badly but just didn't do that seriously enough to actually destroy him for good... and SSJ2 Gotenks would actually give Super Buu a good fight if fought seriously.

[lash]

Or we could just believe Super Buu is just that much more stronger then Pure Buu instead

[hleV]

Or we could just believe Super Buu is just that much more stronger then Pure Buu instead

We could, but he hadn't absorbed anyone who could have given him such a power boost.

[p123]

Which it makes it all that more apparent that South kaioshin's burliness probably added a shit ton of more strength than simple addition. Super is near Buff Buu's power. South kaioshin is probably weaker than SSJ Gohan. For Super to be so much stronger than Pure Buu, South must have multiplied Pure Buu's power tremendously.


Buff/Super Buu should be leaps and bounds above Pure Buu.

[lash]

Or we could just believe Super Buu is just that much more stronger then Pure Buu instead

We could, but he hadn't absorbed anyone who could have given him such a power boost.

He has South(somewhere there) and Dai Kaioshin in him.

[p123]

Dai Kaioshin is only a suppressent , he adds no power. He only adds conscience.

South + Pure Buu = Buff Buu who is stronger than Super Buu, proving that Dai Kai does not add any power at all to Buu.

[lash]

Thanks.
We already knew the obvious when Kibitoshin said it.

[p123]

Lol...


Lash your a supporter of Base Gotenks Post > SSJ Gotenks Pre are you know? What the hell do you do with SSJ3 Gotenks vs SSJ3 Goku?

Using similar boost

SSJ3 Gotenks should be about 40-50x stronger than SSJ3 Goku by my accounts . Lol... Hard to swallow, but if your a Base > SSJ PRe supporter and a supporter of all Buu Saga SSJs get the same boosts, not much to really do then huh?

[hleV]

Or we could just believe Super Buu is just that much more stronger then Pure Buu instead

We could, but he hadn't absorbed anyone who could have given him such a power boost.

He has South(somewhere there) and Dai Kaioshin in him.

Your point being?..

[lash]

Lol...


Lash your a supporter of Base Gotenks Post > SSJ Gotenks Pre are you know? What the hell do you do with SSJ3 Gotenks vs SSJ3 Goku?

Using similar boost

SSJ3 Gotenks should be about 40-50x stronger than SSJ3 Goku by my accounts . Lol... Hard to swallow, but if your a Base > SSJ PRe supporter and a supporter of all Buu Saga SSJs get the same boosts, not much to really do then huh?

If you're going with the same increase in all the SSJ forms for both, then Gotenks IS going to be a huge amount stronger than Goku. There is nothing you can do about it.

As for me, since there is no real stated multiplier ...I'd just give Goku a stronger increase in SSJ3. By going with "SSJ3 brings out the hidden powers of a Saiya-jin to its limits"(which would obviously differ for each person)... I can virtually make Goku as strong as I like. Just as long as he's weaker then who he's stated to be(Shin Buu, etc). Problem solved.

Your point being?

My point is that he had absorbed someone. My other point is that it doesn't really matter who he absorbed. Even if Dai Kaioshin is a negative for Buu, South is certainly a positive. As long as the positive outweighs the negative an absurdly insane plot induced powerup isn't implausible. Cell merely absorbed 17 and 18 and his energy was certainly far larger than their sum. Furthermore, this is Majin Buu. The same guy who can force SSJ3 fusion to stay for 30 minutes via absorption.

[p123]

As for me, since there is no real stated multiplier ...I'd just give Goku a stronger increase in SSJ3. By going with "SSJ3 brings out the hidden powers of a Saiya-jin to its limits"(which would obviously differ for each person)... I can virtually make Goku as strong as I like. Just as long as he's weaker then who he's stated to be(Shin Buu, etc). Problem solved.

Ah ok, so then I will make SSJ Vegeta's boost bigger than Goku's in the androids Arc, since Vegeta suggest it himself, and I will make Gotenks SSJ3 boost a lot bigger than SSJ3 Goku's since he acquired it so fast, and doesn't appear to have the same strain issue. Also Goku is apparently pretty new to the transformations as well as a fused body > unfused body...

Lol, this should infuriate some people eh? One of the reasons I don't mess with varying boosts, if your going to use varying boosts, you can make up any reason for any character to be higher you know? But it definitley is plausible...

[lash]

Ah ok, so then I will make SSJ Vegeta's boost bigger than Goku's in the androids Arc, since Vegeta suggest it himself, and I will make Gotenks SSJ3 boost a lot bigger than SSJ3 Goku's since he acquired it so fast, and doesn't appear to have the same strain issue. Also Goku is apparently pretty new to the transformations as well as a fused body > unfused body...

...
I guess the exact reasoning I gave must have flown right over your head?

Lol, this should infuriate some people eh? One of the reasons I don't mess with varying boosts, if your going to use varying boosts, you can make up any reason for any character to be higher you know? But it definitley is plausible...

Varying boosts would only apply for SSJ3, given the reason I said.
The other transformations aren't drawing out hidden Ki to the limit of the individual. They are just transformations putting out a fixed increase in power, at least in my opinion.