.

[p123]

I think you missed my point. Varying boosts plays into the devils hand. Anyone could come up with any sort of logic for anyone boost being superior to the others.

I could very well say Vegeta's boost for SSJ is bigger than Goku's was at the Androids Arc. Vegeta implies it, and is stronger than Goku.

It's just a dangerous path IMO, I prefer to leave that stuff alone, I think the SEG has always implied the same boosts and I think we should take that. It never says SSJ is 50x boost but for Character's X is a 5x and Character Y is 6x. You know? I think the implication from the guides is that all boosts are the same generally.

Making exceptions etc etc is just causing more confusion I would think...

[lash]

I think you missed my point. Varying boosts plays into the devils hand. Anyone could come up with any sort of logic for anyone boost being superior to the others.

I could very well say Vegeta's boost for SSJ is bigger than Goku's was at the Androids Arc. Vegeta implies it, and is stronger than Goku.

Making or even thinking about power levels after the Trunks arc is already playing into the devils hand.

Sure you could say that. But you'd need more backup for that claim other than "Vegeta said it" or no one would take you seriously.
Especially when Vegeta obviously meant as whole he thought he surpassed Goku.

It's just a dangerous path IMO, I prefer to leave that stuff alone, I think the SEG has always implied the same boosts and I think we should take that. It never says SSJ is 50x boost but for Character's X is a 5x and Character Y is 6x. You know? I think the implication from the guides is that all boosts are the same generally.

Sure, and I agree with the SEG. I think 50x the battle power for SSJ is fixed for everyone. I also think the strength factor of SSJ2 and SSJ3 is fixed for everyone. But nothing was said about the battle power for SSJ2 & SSJ3 being a fixed increase for the Saiyans. Therefore I also take the Daizenshuu route for SSJ3 about it bringing out a Saiyan's hidden power to its limits. Obviously limits for everyone aren't the same, so I take it to mean the increase in SSJ3 can differ for everyone. I have no problems with that with it being the final and ultimate transformation for a saiyan. It's all interpretation, but hey...you're free to choose what to accept if you don't like it.

[p123]

Especially when Vegeta obviously meant as whole he thought he surpassed Goku.

Vegeta said now that he is a SSJ he should be stronger than Goku for sure, since he has better bloodline. I don't see were Vegeta indicates his base strength > Goku's base strength being the reasoning behind this one.

Sure, and I agree with the SEG. I think 50x the battle power for SSJ is fixed for everyone. I also think the strength factor of SSJ2 and SSJ3 is fixed for everyone. But nothing was said about the battle power for SSJ2 & SSJ3 being a fixed increase for the Saiyans. Therefore I also take the Daizenshuu route for SSJ3 about it bringing out a Saiyan's hidden power to its limits. Obviously limits for everyone aren't the same, so I take it to mean the increase in SSJ3 can differ for everyone. I have no problems with that with it being the final and ultimate transformation for a saiyan. It's all interpretation, but hey...you're free to choose what to accept if you don't like it.

That's fine and dandy. I think Gotenks being a fused fighter has way more potential than Goku does, seeing how quickly Gotenks achieves SSJ3 and how effortlessly, then of course logically Gotenks SSJ3 is much more powerful and a bigger boost by a far margin than Goku's measly just learned can't control the strain SSJ3.

[lash]

Vegeta said now that he is a SSJ he should be stronger than Goku for sure, since he has better bloodline. I don't see were Vegeta indicates his base strength > Goku's base strength being the reasoning behind this one.

Vegeta on Namek earlier thought Goku wouldn't get any stronger(as opposed to him) from a near fatal injury due to being a low class warrior.
The same self absorbed belief carries over to SSJ.
Vegeta trained harder then base Goku ever has with gravity, likely surpassing him(at least in his mind).
Vegeta then gains access to SSJ. Therefore Vegeta is stronger than Goku.

That's fine and dandy. I think Gotenks being a fused fighter has way more potential than Goku does, seeing how quickly Gotenks achieves SSJ3 and how effortlessly, then of course logically Gotenks SSJ3 is much more powerful and a bigger boost by a far margin than Goku's measly just learned can't control the strain SSJ3.

Being a fusion, I attribute most of the hidden power of Goten and Trunks to have already come out via merging together.

Goku is far from realizing his true hidden power and thus gets a insane powerup using a transformation that does just that.

Like I said, it's not a fixed increase. Whatever hidden power they have left in reserve is how much they are going to increase by when they become SSJ3.

[p123]

Vegeta on Namek earlier thought Goku wouldn't get any stronger(as opposed to him) from a near fatal injury due to being a low class warrior.
The same self absorbed belief carries over to SSJ.
Vegeta trained harder then base Goku ever has with gravity, likely surpassing him(at least in his mind).
Vegeta then gains access to SSJ. Therefore Vegeta is stronger than Goku.

Could be the case. But Vegeta was proven wrong on Namek, and proven right on Earth. Vegeta is indeed stronger than Goku during the Androids Saga, likely because he has a higher SSJ boost of course, which is never contradicted .. :p

Being a fusion, I attribute most of the hidden power of Goten and Trunks to have already come out via merging together.

I think there ability to easily access SSJ3 is proof they are at the tip of the iceberg. I mean in one week they access SSJ3? How many years did it take Goku? Rememeber, we are not talking about the boys, we are talking Gotenks, who is a different identity. Gotenks potential far outstrips Goku IMO..

Goku is far from realizing his true hidden power and thus gets a insane powerup using a transformation that does just that.

Goku admits he has no more room to improve after the Rosat. Sure he probably gained some power in his Base/SSJ forms, but I doubt it to be by huge measures. His real increases were from SS2/SSJ3. Goku has a really hard time maintaining SSJ3, he's just not strong enough, I think Goku has nearly maximized his full potential, which would make sense since he does live to train.

Like I said, it's not a fixed increase. Whatever hidden power they have left in reserve is how much they are going to increase by when they become SSJ3.

Exactly why I think Gotenks SSJ3 boost is much bigger than Goku's SSJ3 boost. Goku his entire life finally reached this point and barely made it over the edge. Also suggested to be near his maximum potential as is, Gotenks on the other hand, blows through SSJ3 like it was nothing, so much so he doesn't even realize how he did it, it was just simply that easy. If Gotenks remained perhaps he could find even further transformations who knows, Gotenks is just simply so superior to Goku is potential and power.

[lash]

Could be the case. But Vegeta was proven wrong on Namek, and proven right on Earth. Vegeta is indeed stronger than Goku during the Androids Saga, likely because he has a higher SSJ boost of course, which is never contradicted .. :p

Or because he trained his base higher than Goku's as he was doing before he finally obtained SSJ?

I think there ability to easily access SSJ3 is proof they are at the tip of the iceberg. I mean in one week they access SSJ3? How many years did it take Goku? Rememeber, we are not talking about the boys, we are talking Gotenks, who is a different identity. Gotenks potential far outstrips Goku IMO..

Well considering I think Gotenks is still over 7x stronger then Goku in SSJ3 anyway...

Gotenks still ends up with higher potential doesn't he?

Goku admits he has no more room to improve after the Rosat. Sure he probably gained some power in his Base/SSJ forms, but I doubt it to be by huge measures. His real increases were from SS2/SSJ3. Goku has a really hard time maintaining SSJ3, he's just not strong enough, I think Goku has nearly maximized his full potential, which would make sense since he does live to train.

He has no issues maintaining SSJ3 in the afterlife like he said. Only in the living world, and later to find...only when he has a living body. The reason being is "time" exists. "Strength" has little to nothing to do with it.
Ironically Gotenks has a "time" issue too with SSJ3.

Exactly why I think Gotenks SSJ3 boost is much bigger than Goku's SSJ3 boost. Goku his entire life finally reached this point and barely made it over the edge. Also suggested to be near his maximum potential as is, Gotenks on the other hand, blows through SSJ3 like it was nothing, so much so he doesn't even realize how he did it, it was just simply that easy. If Gotenks remained perhaps he could find even further transformations who knows, Gotenks is just simply so superior to Goku is potential and power.

Alright. Then there is nothing really left to argue is there? You should have no issues with Gotenks being over 50x stronger then Goku like you didn't were complaining about earlier then.

[p123]

Or because he trained his base higher than Goku's as he was doing before he finally obtained SSJ?

I doubt it. Vegeta was always a step behind Goku in base. Vegeta implies it's his SSJ that puts him over the edge and that SSJ is the reason why Vegeta should be back on top of the pecking order. I'm thinking Vegeta has a 60x boost or so..

Well considering I think Gotenks is still over 7x stronger then Goku in SSJ3 anyway...

Gotenks still ends up with higher potential doesn't he?

Hmm depends on what you use. Let' use SEG numbers...


I look at SSJ3 Goku at around 80% of Base Gotenks Pre, then a 50x boost on top of that, add a 2x boost with that and let's give Gotenks double SSJ3 Goku's boost for 8 x and wala Gotenks is 800x stronger than Goku. That was easy!

He has no issues maintaining SSJ3 in the afterlife like he said. Only in the living world, and later to find...only when he has a living body. The reason being is "time" exists. "Strength" has little to nothing to do with it.
Ironically Gotenks has a "time" issue too with SSJ3.

Exactly.. Goku's too weak to handle it in a living body. Gotenks would handle SSJ3 in Otherworld with even more ease. Time is always an issue with SSJ3, but Gotenks has zero strain, and is not even winded after the transformation is done. Goku is exhausted to a point he's crying in a corner like a little bitch about how tired he is... Hell, Goten and Trunks probably could handle SSJ3 better with a year or two in the Rosat. They are ridicolous proteges that blow past Goku's every move. It's a shame they ended up being so lazy. Goten/Trunks probably have more potential than Goku, forget about Gotenks, he blows Goku out of the water..

[lash]

I doubt it. Vegeta was always a step behind Goku in base. Vegeta implies it's his SSJ that puts him over the edge and that SSJ is the reason why Vegeta should be back on top of the pecking order. I'm thinking Vegeta has a 60x boost or so..

You can doubt it. It doesn't mean that isn't how it is.
Vegeta just states he's stronger than Goku, and that is all.

Gotenks would handle SSJ3 in Otherworld with even more ease.

The most that would happen is he can maintain it for the full 30 minutes.

Time is always an issue with SSJ3, but Gotenks has zero strain, and is not even winded after the transformation is done.

Nah.
Gotenks has no power left after becoming a SSJ3 for 5 minutes. That's the very reason why he reverts. Goten and Trunks directly complain about how worn out they are after using the form.

[jackjack]

Their gap is huge to say the least. It would look something like Kid vs Good fat Boo should they fight.

[dbgtFO]

About Gotenks.
Since there is nothing concrete other than interpretation about his power compared to the other good guys(before Gohan), I would use this from Daiz 7 and the SSJ multipliers from SEG.

...The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others. However, they were taken in by Buu, who had powered up by absorbing the good portion of himself.

http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz07.p ... -i#gotenks
I don't know how to really understand this.

One interpretation could be that his normal form surpassed "Vegeta and the others", which would make his SSJ 3 400 times stronger, than Majin Vegeta at least, which means he is 100 times stronger, than SSJ 3 Goku at least. Which is ridiculous!

Another interpretation could be that his Super Saiyan form surpassed "Vegeta and the others", which would make his SSJ 3, 8 times stronger than Majin Vegeta at least and make him 2 times stronger than SSJ 3 Goku at the very least.

Either way it has to be his normal form or his SSJ form that is referred to, since he wasn't "taken in" by Buu in his SSJ 3 form.
I would personally subscribe to the second interpretation, since Gotenks being that strong in his normal form is just ridiculous. This would also mean, that Trunks' implication about normal Gotenks should be enough to deal with Buu is thrown out the window, because it's part of the whole "Gotenks is too overconfident" theme, which two chapter titles in volume 41 points out pretty clearly.

[hleV]

You guys have brought too many valid points leading to nowhere. Either we no longer take Daizenshuu and SEG's info seriously or we're done for on this matter.

[Fox666]

About Gotenks.
Since there is nothing concrete other than interpretation about his power compared to the other good guys(before Gohan), I would use this from Daiz 7 and the SSJ multipliers from SEG.

...The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others. However, they were taken in by Buu, who had powered up by absorbing the good portion of himself.

http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz07.p ... -i#gotenks
I don't know how to really understand this.

One interpretation could be that his normal form surpassed "Vegeta and the others", which would make his SSJ 3 400 times stronger, than Majin Vegeta at least, which means he is 100 times stronger, than SSJ 3 Goku at least. Which is ridiculous!

Another interpretation could be that his Super Saiyan form surpassed "Vegeta and the others", which would make his SSJ 3, 8 times stronger than Majin Vegeta at least and make him 2 times stronger than SSJ 3 Goku at the very least.

Either way it has to be his normal form or his SSJ form that is referred to, since he wasn't "taken in" by Buu in his SSJ 3 form.
I would personally subscribe to the second interpretation, since Gotenks being that strong in his normal form is just ridiculous. This would also mean, that Trunks' implication about normal Gotenks should be enough to deal with Buu is thrown out the window, because it's part of the whole "Gotenks is too overconfident" theme, which two chapter titles in volume 41 points out pretty clearly.

I don't see anything special in that description. For me it simply said that Gotenks was stronger than "Vegeta and the others" which we already knew from the manga.

[Nazi Cola]

About Gotenks.
Since there is nothing concrete other than interpretation about his power compared to the other good guys(before Gohan), I would use this from Daiz 7 and the SSJ multipliers from SEG.

...The two entered the Room of Spirit and Time, and hurriedly trained as Gotenks. As a result, Gotenks leveled up so much that his strength surpassed Vegeta and the others. However, they were taken in by Buu, who had powered up by absorbing the good portion of himself.

http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz07.p ... -i#gotenks
I don't know how to really understand this.

One interpretation could be that his normal form surpassed "Vegeta and the others", which would make his SSJ 3 400 times stronger, than Majin Vegeta at least, which means he is 100 times stronger, than SSJ 3 Goku at least. Which is ridiculous!

Another interpretation could be that his Super Saiyan form surpassed "Vegeta and the others", which would make his SSJ 3, 8 times stronger than Majin Vegeta at least and make him 2 times stronger than SSJ 3 Goku at the very least.

Either way it has to be his normal form or his SSJ form that is referred to, since he wasn't "taken in" by Buu in his SSJ 3 form.
I would personally subscribe to the second interpretation, since Gotenks being that strong in his normal form is just ridiculous. This would also mean, that Trunks' implication about normal Gotenks should be enough to deal with Buu is thrown out the window, because it's part of the whole "Gotenks is too overconfident" theme, which two chapter titles in volume 41 points out pretty clearly.

I don't see anything special in that description. For me it simply said that Gotenks was stronger than "Vegeta and the others" which we already knew from the manga.

I think he's bringing up the point that one could take that excerpt as Gotenks not being stronger than Vegeta and the others before training in the RoSaT.

[p123]

Kuririn implies Base Gotenks Pre > Majin Vegeta, and Piccolo/Trunks/Goten/Gotenks imply Base Gotenks Post > SSJ Gotenks Pre.


Would like to see the quotes though, anyway feel like fishing?

[cpd12589]

There's no way base Gotenks pre RoSaT is stronger than Majin Vegeta though.

[lash]

There's no way base Gotenks pre RoSaT is stronger than Majin Vegeta though.

Why of course there is.

[cpd12589]

It just seems very unlikely to me that base Gotenks pre RoSaT would be stronger than SSJ2 Majin Vegeta. Majin Vegeta faired much better against Fat Buu than pre RoSaT base Gotenks did also.

[lash]

We never saw how Gotenks fared.

[Zephyr]

It just seems very unlikely to me that base Gotenks pre RoSaT would be stronger than SSJ2 Majin Vegeta. Majin Vegeta faired much better against Fat Buu than pre RoSaT base Gotenks did also.

Nevermind the fact that Gotenks actually survived.

[Piccolo Daimao]

It just seems very unlikely to me that base Gotenks pre RoSaT would be stronger than SSJ2 Majin Vegeta. Majin Vegeta faired much better against Fat Buu than pre RoSaT base Gotenks did also.

Nevermind the fact that Gotenks actually survived.

We never saw how Gotenks fared. All we know is that Fat Boo beat him up and he escaped.

And Vegeta blew himself up to destroy Boo. He wasn't directly killed by Boo.