So at first we're introduced to Kami as "God" but then....

[p123]

So who exactly appointed Kami to be god? And why? He's just some bumbling traveling Namekian. What gives him the right to be Earth's god, god to the human race, which he is nothing like?


So would Planet Vegeta and Namek have gods as well?


Where is the info coming from the Daiz?


Yes, I am aware of how Kaioshin are created. But you would think some fruit would pop up eventually, I mean what has it been 5 million years or so since Buu was locked away? Even if that number was wrong, it really takes that long for fruit to grow?


IMO, Kaioshin and Kibito were too preoccupied having fun, stick fruit up their orfices , that they didn't want anyone to ruin there fun..

[Olivier Hague]

So who exactly appointed Kami to be god?

Mr. Popo? The previous god?

And why? He's just some bumbling traveling Namekian.

He's a powerful Nameccian who got rid of his evil aspects.

What gives him the right to be Earth's god, god to the human race, which he is nothing like?

How anthropocentric of you. :þ

So would Planet Vegeta and Namek have gods as well?

I'm thinking the Great Elder was it, for Namecc.
As for Planet Vegeta... Well, you can't expect actual spirituality from white devils, right?

[Piccolo Daimao]

So would Planet Vegeta and Namek have gods as well?

I'm thinking the Great Elder was it, for Namecc.
As for Planet Vegeta... Well, you can't expect actual spirituality from white devils, right?

Yeah, I think the Great Elder was basically the god of Namek. I don't think Planet Vegeta have a god, since they don't seem like the kind of people who would be religious, and it's not suggested anywhere either.

[Coola Yagami]

well.... to the average man, Kami Sama really is an all powerful being. I mean he lived in a temple unaccesible to man, he has powers beyond those even the legendary Piccolo Daimaoh, can created clothes out of thin air, can rebuild the moon, etc etc etc. Plus he can see everything that's going on in the planet. That is a god to most people. Just remember, the series got carried away with Super Saiyans and whatnot that made even the gods seem like weaklings. But to average joe, Kami, Kaioh and Kaoishin were all supreme gods.

[Herms]

So who exactly appointed Kami to be god? And why?

It's pretty much stated to be the previous God of Earth. Or at least, the child of Katatz says the previous one refused to make him his successor because he had some evil in his heart, so presumably it was this same previous God who finally made Katatz Jr. his successor after he purged the evil from his heart. Why? Well, the previous God was dying, they needed a replacement, and Katatz Jr. was the strongest guy on the planet and no longer had any evil in his heart.

Yes, I am aware of how Kaioshin are created. But you would think some fruit would pop up eventually, I mean what has it been 5 million years or so since Buu was locked away? Even if that number was wrong, it really takes that long for fruit to grow?

These are beings that live for millions and millions of years. It's not completely strange that the tree they grow from would operate on a similarly large time scale. If anything, the tree's time scale should be considerably larger, since it's lasted throughout all the generations of Kaioshins. Consider how long trees live for in comparison to humans, and then imagine a similar relationship between millions of years-old gods and their tree. So I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the tree won't grow new golden fruit for millions of years at a time.

Yea some random wandering Namekian splitting into two and then one side having access to Heaven is awfully unsettling. Why grants Kami these abilties to talk to people on the other side. That's silly, he's just a Namekian..

Uranai Baba gets access to the afterlife, and she's just an Earthling.

So would Planet Vegeta and Namek have gods as well?

I'm thinking the Great Elder was it, for Namecc.
As for Planet Vegeta... Well, you can't expect actual spirituality from white devils, right?

At the very least, the Great Elder was the one who Kaio choose to talk to during the all the coordinated wishing towards the end of the Freeza battle, so he certainly seems to occupy a similar position. Daizenshuu 7 says that each planet's god serves to guide immature races towards the greatest happiness, so maybe the Namekians are a "mature" race and so don't need a full-fledged god anymore. Meanwhile the Saiyans might be on the opposite end of the spectrum: they're too immature a race to even have a god. There's no born-and-bred Saiyan who'd qualify for godhood, and if the afterlife sent someone to serve as a god for them, they'd probably just get blown up. Daizenshuu 7 says the Saiyans regarded the Super Saiyan like a god, but that seems separate from the ordinary god system.

So altogether there are supposed to be five Kaio, five Kaioshin, and a bunch of planetary gods.

That sounds very odd. At least is not the impression the series gave me.

Well, the series only ever mentions 5 Kaios and 5 Kaioshins, and never mentions any subdivision to the universe beyond north, south, east, and west.

I don't like the idea of mere 4 Kaios, and 1 Dai Kaio subordinate for all 4 Kaioshins. It's very odd from the Kaioshin being that important if they exist in the same number as Kaios.

Well, the Kaioshins are a gazillion times stronger than the Kaios and watch over the Kaios right along with the universe. Think of them as emergency back-up gods, and the ones who watch the watchmen.

Well, not quite. Each Kaio watches over a quadrant of the universe (or galaxy? Is it ever specifically stated there are only four galaxies?)

There guidebooks say there are 4 galaxies. The series itself is a little more vague; it talks about the universe being divided up into north, south, east, and west, but what exactly these divisions consist of isn't quote clear. Going by the manga, you might interpret North Kaio as being in charge of the northern galaxies as opposed to the north galaxy (what with the lack of a true plural in Japanese), and elsewhere North Kaio is also said to be in charge of the north area, but this term "area" is never explained. I went over this whole thing here.

[cpd12589]

So at first we're introduced to God as "God", but then...

Frankly, discussions like this always seem to stem from the fact that a lot of people don't know much about religions other than their own. Yeah, DB's God of Earth isn't that impressive compared to the omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent deities of most monotheistic religions, but he's not really that out of line with the way gods are portrayed in many polytheistic religions and belief systems. Case in point, he's pretty similar to the gods of Journey to the West: beings who attain their position as gods by being assigned to some divine post, are way more powerful than the average joe, but are also capable of being outdone by non-gods like the Monkey King. Toriyama just seems to have been channeling those sorts of deities when creating the gods of DB.

^ Exactly Kami is a "God" as portrayed like the gods of Journey to the West or other deities like that. Being that Dragon Ball was based on that story it makes perfect sense. Not every religions God is like say the Christian God who is the all knowing all powerful Alpha and Omega.

[Bussani]

What gives him the right to be Earth's god, god to the human race, which he is nothing like?

Compared to what?

I don't think Planet Vegeta has a god, since they don't seem like the kind of people who would be religious

I'm not sure "religion" has a lot to do with it. I suppose it's also worth considering whether the Saiyans were originally inhabitants of Planet Vegeta or not; if they were space invaders and the planet really belonged to the Tsufuru-jin first, wouldn't the god have been a Tsufuru-jin?

Yea some random wandering Namekian splitting into two and then one side having access to Heaven is awfully unsettling.

You're not more unsettled that he tried to get Goku to be his successor?

[Fox666]

Well, the Kaioshins are a gazillion times stronger than the Kaios and watch over the Kaios right along with the universe. Think of them as emergency back-up gods, and the ones who watch the watchmen.

That's a interesting analogy, surely you are good in explaning things.

But I still feel it's very strange.

Well, the series only ever mentions 5 Kaios and 5 Kaioshins, and never mentions any subdivision to the universe beyond north, south, east, and west.
(...)
There guidebooks say there are 4 galaxies. The series itself is a little more vague; it talks about the universe being divided up into north, south, east, and west, but what exactly these divisions consist of isn't quote clear. Going by the manga, you might interpret North Kaio as being in charge of the northern galaxies as opposed to the north galaxy (what with the lack of a true plural in Japanese), and elsewhere North Kaio is also said to be in charge of the north area, but this term "area" is never explained. I went over this whole thing here.

I don't remember a website named Planet Namek.com, so I don't think I took the idea from there. Probably I made up myself along with someone else in MSN.

The series is just ambiguous in that sense, because it gives very little information. So I think that if there were tons of Dai Kaios around the universe, the series never contradicted it as a possibility.

In fact the manga only displayed 2 Kaios, so there is no reason to assume that there shouldn't have more than 1 Dai Kaios just because it was never shown in the series.

I would say in terms of magnitude the series give some support to that theory. It just seems like the lives of a single planet is too much for Enma and the Kaios. Having 4 Kaios for each galaxy with sensient life would be satisfatory on these terms.

And I think that site Planet Namek.com might be wrong in saying that there are 4 Dai Kaios. If we think of the number of galaxies in the universe, it might as well have 100 Dai Kaios under each Kaioshin.

Of course this is just a theory.

[Herms]

The series is just ambiguous in that sense, because it gives very little information. So I think that if there were tons of Dai Kaios around the universe, the series never contradicted it as a possibility.

In the series though Piccolo explains that there are 4 Kaios and a Dai-Kaio above them. If there were supposed to be a whole bunch of other Kaios and Dai-Kaios, you'd think they would be mentioned at some point. And Toriyama's map of the DB cosmos shows 4 Kaio planets and 1 Dai-Kaio planet. If there were tons of other Kaios and Dai-Kaios, where do they live? Toriyama also refers to the 4 Kaios when talking about the Shinjin and Makaios and whatnot in the SEG: Character Volume; if there were supposed to be a bunch of unseen Kaios, that would be the ideal time to mention it, but instead he clearly says there are 4.

[Kiyza]

So who exactly appointed Kami to be god? And why? He's just some bumbling traveling Namekian. What gives him the right to be Earth's god, god to the human race, which he is nothing like?

Last time I checked, most deities happen to not be human. Just throwing that out there. And also, there are more than just humans on Earth. There are monsters like Giran and anthropormorphic animal people. I doubt that a guy with green skin and antennae would be that strange or alien to them.

well.... to the average man, Kami Sama really is an all powerful being. I mean he lived in a temple unaccesible to man, he has powers beyond those even the legendary Piccolo Daimaoh, can created clothes out of thin air, can rebuild the moon, etc etc etc. Plus he can see everything that's going on in the planet. That is a god to most people. Just remember, the series got carried away with Super Saiyans and whatnot that made even the gods seem like weaklings. But to average joe, Kami, Kaioh and Kaoishin were all supreme gods.

This is the way I've always thought about him myself. As far as a normal person is concerned, this guy pretty much is a god. He may not be omnipotent like the afforementioned Christian God, but he certainly fits the criteria for one. Some characters just happen to be stronger than him. Does that make him less godly? It might make him more insignificant in some ways, like fighting against *insert villian here* but he is still a god. And on top of that, he made a new moon. Last time I checked, that's something normal characters can't do.

And I think that site Planet Namek.com might be wrong in saying that there are 4 Dai Kaios. If we think of the number of galaxies in the universe, it might as well have 100 Dai Kaios under each Kaioshin.

According to the Daizenshuu and that wonderful thread that Herms made on the geography of the Dragon Ball universe, there are only four galaxies.

[mister yummy]

It kinda reconciles Kaio-sama's story to Goku, but I think the Kami of Vegita was, eventually, Freeza. The saiya-jin killed the kami of planet plant, king Vegita took his place, and Freeza took his. It's pure conjecture, but it's a cool theory.

[p123]

I like a lot of the answers here, these were my favorite...

Kami was god like in comparison to humans. Was the successor to the previous god...

Namekians have surpassed the need of a god, although Elder Guru perhaps does have connections to otherworld, the strict god system is not neccessary for this race..

Saiyans have no god, they worship the Super Saiyan, lust for battle and lust for power. Nothing suggests them to be anything other than ruthless killing machines, warrior race designed for battle. No need for a god for them, they will all be going to the afterlife soon enough...





Question, does DB cover all four quadrants of the universe. Is it possible that we don't know what kind of villians are in the east/west/south quadrants, or does Freeza's reign rule over the entire universe?


Was Freeza ever the true strongest? Wouldn't Dabura be considered the strongest in the universe at least in story wise until Cell/Zfighters surpassed him? Even if Dabura's realm is different than Freeza's wouldn't it all be encompassed as the mortal realm? Or is Dabura's realm different? Can you ever consider Freeza the strongest with Kaioshin and Dabura able to have access to the mortal realm?

[Bussani]

Question, does DB cover all four quadrants of the universe. Is it possible that we don't know what kind of villians are in the east/west/south quadrants, or does Freeza's reign rule over the entire universe?

I don't think it gives a lot of details, but there are a few things. Namek is outside of Kaio's jurisdiction, so it's not part of the northern quadrant. On the maps, Planet Vegeta and Planet Freeza #79 are on the same side of the quadrant-dividing-line as Namek, so they're probably in the same quadrant as it. Herms guessed that this would be the eastern quadrant, since Elder Kaioshin--the East Kaioshin of 15 years ago*--once told the Namekians not to use the dragon balls to interfere with the fates of other worlds. Whatever the case, it seems that Freeza's influence reached from that quadrant to the northern one.

If you think about it a bit more, it took a whole year for Vegeta and Nappa to get from where they were to Earth, but only about a month to get to a Freeza outpost and then to Namek--and Goku's ship, using Saiyan technology, got to Namek in only a few days. This could just be Toriyama not thinking things through too hard, but wouldn't Vegeta and Nappa have to be on the other side of the universe for it to take that long?

Was Freeza ever the true strongest? Wouldn't Dabura be considered the strongest in the universe at least in story wise until Cell/Zfighters surpassed him? Even if Dabura's realm is different than Freeza's wouldn't it all be encompassed as the mortal realm? Or is Dabura's realm different? Can you ever consider Freeza the strongest with Kaioshin and Dabura able to have access to the mortal realm?

Dabura's realm is considered a different place, even though it's still a mortal plane. It's quite unique, since it's a place the Kaio and Kaioshin themselves don't even watch over. I think Freeza was definitely the strongest mortal in the normal universe, at least.

You should definitely check out Herms' God/Universe Guide; it's a good collection of all this stuff.

*Like Piccolo Daimao said, I meant to say 15 generations ago, not 15 years ago!

[Piccolo Daimao]

the East Kaioshin of 15 years ago

I think you mean "the East Kaioshin of 15 generations ago".

[Rocketman]

The problem arises because the word "God" with no qualifiers has always referred to a Prime Mover or supreme all-powerful deity in the West, even before Christianity arose.

So, Kami is a god, and he is the God of Earth, but he is not God.

Deities in polytheistic setups are never simply called 'God'.

[Kiyza]

The problem arises because the word "God" with no qualifiers has always referred to a Prime Mover or supreme all-powerful deity in the West, even before Christianity arose.

So, Kami is a god, and he is the God of Earth, but he is not God.

Deities in polytheistic setups are never simply called 'God'.

I'd chalk the fact he's just flatly called God up to Toriyama not thinking ahead and deciding, "Hey, maybe there should be more gods than just this guy?" Of course, after we learn that there are aliens and higher gods, he's called the God of Earth a lot of the time.

Then again, are you sure that there aren't any polytheistic deities that aren't simply called "God?"

[Bussani]

the East Kaioshin of 15 years ago

I think you mean "the East Kaioshin of 15 generations ago".

That may have been what I meant, yeah.

[p123]

Interesting stuff going on here, will check out that guide in a minute...


Just contemplating over here, about who the strongest in the universe would be. I would think that if a fighter has access to being in a dimension/plane/realm of Freeza's and he is stronger than Freeza, he could logically be the strongest in the universe.


Considering Kaioshin's and Dabura's ability to literally roll up on Freeza if they had felt the need to, could we ever truly consider Freeza the strongest? Dabura had been to Earth 300 or 500 years ago? So he does legitmately have access to Freeza area of dominance, and if he would bump into him he would annihalate Freeza. Same for Kaioshin as well...

Buu on the other hand , in encased in his ball, and as long as undisturbed would not have the ability to do anything to anyone. Although the likelihood of him being outright killing him without awakening him and stirring up a hornets nest would be low, access wise, he would be in an inferior position to Kaioshin and Dabura..

So I'm thinking this should be judged by an access POV...Now let's say South Kaio's fighter, I forget his name, the one he thinks can take on Goku based on his training with 1 ton weights. Perhaps that fighter is way stronger than Freeza as well, but seeing as how he doesn't have access to the mortal realm, could not be truly considered the strongest. You would have to maintain the title, and working off a one day pass would not be conclusive enough. You would be the strongest for that one day, but once you returned to the afterlife, and had no access to the mortal realm, you would lose that title...


What do you think about all of that...

[caejones]

The problem arises because the word "God" with no qualifiers has always referred to a Prime Mover or supreme all-powerful deity in the West, even before Christianity arose.

So, Kami is a god, and he is the God of Earth, but he is not God.

Deities in polytheistic setups are never simply called 'God'.

I'd chalk the fact he's just flatly called God up to Toriyama not thinking ahead and deciding, "Hey, maybe there should be more gods than just this guy?" Of course, after we learn that there are aliens and higher gods, he's called the God of Earth a lot of the time.

Then again, are you sure that there aren't any polytheistic deities that aren't simply called "God?"

I think we can blame the confusion on the language barrier, at least a little.
Japanese doesn't use articles like "a" and "the" the way English does. It has demonstratives and such ("this" "that" and "that other one"). But it seems like the lowest level of god in DB is planetary, so "kono kami" / "this god" just wouldn't come up in conversation.

Also, I like the idea of Freeza being the god of Planet Vegeta. I mean, the saiyans like fighting, Freeza gives them people to fight = he fulfills the role. The only problem being that he wasn't among their population... but... umm... Hey look, a bee! *Shunkaniido*

[Turtle Marked Stone]

The problem arises because the word "God" with no qualifiers has always referred to a Prime Mover or supreme all-powerful deity in the West, even before Christianity arose.

So, Kami is a god, and he is the God of Earth, but he is not God.

Deities in polytheistic setups are never simply called 'God'.

I'd chalk the fact he's just flatly called God up to Toriyama not thinking ahead and deciding, "Hey, maybe there should be more gods than just this guy?" Of course, after we learn that there are aliens and higher gods, he's called the God of Earth a lot of the time.

Then again, are you sure that there aren't any polytheistic deities that aren't simply called "God?"

He knows more then me but doesn't Wicca simply have a power named "God" along side a "Goddess"?