Dragonball Vs. Non Dragonball

[lonewolf]

In my opinion, the scans you're talking about are black hole, supernova, temperature of the sun, pushing the planet out of it's orbit and billion ton weightlifting(western comics wins here). Those things were never tested on DB characters(except for weight lifting), so it's meaningless to compare.

That's sorta my whole point here. It's all. completely. meaningless. The standards for strength exemplification differ between the two types of comics, so it's silly to think you can conclusively compare calculated speed with motion lines, or moons / planets destroyed through energy projectiles to a planet being leveled with someone's bare freaking hands.

And no, collateral damage is never how powers are judged or scaled in Marvel or in DC, because there is no power scaling. For instance, the Superman that destroyed Shadow Thief's shadow Moon by accelerating himself towards lightspeed? He'd be weaker than Superman, circa 2004. Because since then, his solar reserves have been depleted.

I'm just comparing punches from SSJ3 Gotenks, Bloodlusted Superman and Flash's infinite mass. Who do you think punches hard? SSJ3 Gotenks, Bloodlusted Supes and Flash punches their opponent, what makes it different from one another? If the feats were all the same(like punch), it's fair to determine it's power by destructive means. It's just a punch, try to compare the punches. As for Thor, do you see Goku getting hit by Wolverine or Spiderman? And for Super Boo and Trion Juggernaut, you have a point.

It's not magical, if you read Underworld Unleashed and Brightest Day, you would know it's not magical, sorry for the terms.

The shadow Moon-destruction thingy happened in JLA #30 (April '09). How does this relate to Underworld Unleashed or Brightest Day... at all?

The magical thing was all made up by some fans to make the Shadow Moon-Superman Knocked Out incident not valid. They hate it when Superman falls under the category of DragonBall characters.

Underworld Unleashed = Shadow Thief's magical power up or Faustian debt was null and void at the end of the storyline.

Brightest Day = the Starheart affected civilians with potential, metas, chaos energy user, magical and the like. Some fans keep on insisting Shadow Thief was affected because he was jabbering non-sense, the truth is he was not affected because he wasn't wearing the suite in prison island.

[Bussani]

I'm just comparing punches from SSJ3 Gotenks, Bloodlusted Superman and Flash's infinite mass. Who do you think punches hard? SSJ3 Gotenks, Bloodlusted Supes and Flash punches their opponent, what makes it different from one another? If the feats were all the same(like punch), it's fair to determine it's power by destructive means. It's just a punch, try to compare the punches.

What he's saying is there's no agreement between comic book writers on how much collateral damage should occur. There's not even consistency when it's the same author, because they generally don't think of it like this. They think of it like, "And then he punches him through a building and the building explodes or something! Why? Because it's awesome!"

Of course, it's not really any sillier than everything else in this thread. I don't mean that as an insult to anyone participating--I just mean that this is all just for fun anyway.

[lonewolf]

I'm just comparing punches from SSJ3 Gotenks, Bloodlusted Superman and Flash's infinite mass. Who do you think punches hard? SSJ3 Gotenks, Bloodlusted Supes and Flash punches their opponent, what makes it different from one another? If the feats were all the same(like punch), it's fair to determine it's power by destructive means. It's just a punch, try to compare the punches.

What he's saying is there's no agreement between comic book writers on how much collateral damage should occur. There's not even consistency when it's the same author, because they generally don't think of it like this. They think of it like, "And then he punches him through a building and the building explodes or something! Why? Because it's awesome!"

Of course, it's not really any sillier than everything else in this thread. I don't mean that as an insult to anyone participating--I just mean that this is all just for fun anyway.

Blaming the author is irrelevant response to in-universe discussion. When we compare strength, we usually use what the punch or energy attacks can do not what the plot or Author wants.
In response to your out-universe reply, if Toriyama didn't think generally any of that and just throwing out something that explodes etc, then why he couldn't do more than 1000 chapters of DragonBall without generally thinking. It's like saying creating comics and manga is about throwing up stuff without generally thinking

[Bussani]

Blaming the author is irrelevant response to in-universe discussion.

I didn't blame any one author. I pointed out that there's nothing guaranteeing consistency between collateral damage in one work of fiction and another. Ask five different artists how big a crater caused by <insert character here> should be and you'll probably end up with five different answers.

I'm not even saying you can't do these comparisons, just that the size of two craters isn't very conclusive when it comes to comics--particularly when they're drawn by different people.

[Hellspawn28]

I think the thing about most DBZ vs. Marvel/DC (Image Comics is rarely used in DBZ because no one gives a shit about them ) is that they are set in two different worlds and have been control by different people for over 50 years. I mean The Silver Surfer got trap in Spider-Man's webs back in the late 60's or 70's but he was shown to surrived Planet busting and Supernovas just fine. I think it depends what story arc of the character that should be used. For example, "Superman from IC vs. SSj3 Buu Saga Manga Goku" then just "Post-Crisis Superman vs. SSj3 Goku".

I think 80% or 90% of DBZ beating Marvel or DC is a bit higher. Skyfathers like Odin or The Destroyer could solo DBZ on their own, and they are not even on the same power rank as MJJ or Eternity.

[Perfect]

The physics would have to come to mutual terms for any of that to work in the slightest. That's why I like how Mortal Kombat vs. DC works, to an extent. It's fairly obvious some of the DC characters are actually toned downed, which is to be expected. I'm sure though that someone could create a mutual world where anyone is barley toned down and things make sense (At least on retrospect to their comic origins).

[Hellspawn28]

Besides characters getting hurt by little things or hurt by weaker characters pretty much all of the time in most fiction. Michael Demirgos was hurt by chains afterall, unless you want to think that Kid Buu can kill him with a ki beam.

[In Brightest Day]

First appearance Son Goku vs. Classic Quicksilver (who was clocked at 175 mph).

[lonewolf]

Blaming the author is irrelevant response to in-universe discussion.

I didn't blame any one author. I pointed out that there's nothing guaranteeing consistency between collateral damage in one work of fiction and another. Ask five different artists how big a crater caused by <insert character here> should be and you'll probably end up with five different answers.

I'm not even saying you can't do these comparisons, just that the size of two craters isn't very conclusive when it comes to comics--particularly when they're drawn by different people.

No matter how many Superman writers or artist you ask, you would never find any Superman comics surpassing SSJ3 Gotenks in terms of punching power(punched a giant crater).
Also, it's illogical to think that Toriyama didn't generally think of SSJ3 Gotenks' giant crater. I mean it's easier to draw smaller crater, why draw a larger one? That's how Toriyama portrayed SSJ3 Gotenks' power.
Whole point here is using out-universe scenario to in-universe scenario makes the logic stupid. I mean, in the history of Superman, that's the biggest crater he ever created by punching his enemy. Unless you can show me that Superman can destroy an island with a punch, we are talking history of comics character inside the comics here not outside. From past to current writers of Superman, that's how they always portray Superman destructive punch is, crater smaller than SSJ3 Gotenks' destructive punch. If you read Superman comics, you would know that the trademark or consistency of Superman's punch from different writers were creating small crater, punch a miles and punch his enemy through the core to the other side of the planet. As of now, never in the history Superman created a devastating punch like SSJ3 Gotenks did.

It seems the strength checker of DragonBall is useless if the out-universe or fanmade author theory is always to be discussed in the in-universe discussion

I think the thing about most DBZ vs. Marvel/DC (Image Comics is rarely used in DBZ because no one gives a shit about them ) is that they are set in two different worlds and have been control by different people for over 50 years. I mean The Silver Surfer got trap in Spider-Man's webs back in the late 60's or 70's but he was shown to surrived Planet busting and Supernovas just fine. I think it depends what story arc of the character that should be used. For example, "Superman from IC vs. SSj3 Buu Saga Manga Goku" then just "Post-Crisis Superman vs. SSj3 Goku".

Wolverine and Spiderman are skillful and more of a fighter than Silver Surfer and Thor. I can't even see a comics where Thor or Silver Surfer blocked or dodged multiple punches or kicks. Excluding the omnipotent and abstract, it's normal for the DC/Marvel heroes/villains to get beaten by skills.

I think 80% or 90% of DBZ beating Marvel or DC is a bit higher. Skyfathers like Odin or The Destroyer could solo DBZ on their own, and they are not even on the same power rank as MJJ or Eternity.

The hearsay about Odin destroying the galaxy was a lie, there's no scan showing Odin destroyed the galaxy in a single shot. If you're using that feat for Odin, we might as well use Majin-Buu as a universal buster since it was stated by Old Kaiohshin and Goku. MJJ was reduced to skeleton by a non-city buster attack, MJJ is weak in defense ala Babidi.

Eternity can solo the entire DB, but not Odin, The Destroyer and MJJ.

Besides characters getting hurt by little things or hurt by weaker characters pretty much all of the time in most fiction. Michael Demirgos was hurt by chains afterall, unless you want to think that Kid Buu can kill him with a ki beam.

The chains are magical.

[Savage68]

Whole point here is using out-universe scenario to in-universe scenario makes the logic stupid. I mean, in the history of Superman, that's the biggest crater he ever created by punching his enemy. Unless you can show me that Superman can destroy an island with a punch, we are talking history of comics character inside the comics here not outside.

He was punching Konvict with enough force to shatter a small planet. He punched Orion from the Earth to the Moon. He punch-shattered an asteroid large enough to destroy the Earth. I sincerely believe that you aren't qualified to speak on any of this after reading your most recent post.

[lonewolf]

Whole point here is using out-universe scenario to in-universe scenario makes the logic stupid. I mean, in the history of Superman, that's the biggest crater he ever created by punching his enemy. Unless you can show me that Superman can destroy an island with a punch, we are talking history of comics character inside the comics here not outside.

He was punching Konvict with enough force to shatter a small planet.

It's not a punch, Superman hit or fly right through Konvict then he stated that it can shatter small planets. Also, small planets is not a big deal because it's also known as asteroids or planetoids and take a look at the scan, "SSJ3 Gotenks' crater is still larger".







Another win for SSJ3 Gotenks!

He punched Orion from the Earth to the Moon.

He did punch Orion from the Earth to the moon but the destructive effect was smaller than SSJ3 Gotenks's crater.

He punch-shattered an asteroid large enough to destroy the Earth. I sincerely believe that you aren't qualified to speak on any of this after reading your most recent post.

He didn't punch the asteroid, Superman fly right through it, like what he did to the shadow moon. Same reason why Superman Prime needs to fly right through Earth-15's core to destroy it. As of now, no version of Superman(CA is a controlled robot not Superman) can destroy a planet with a single punch or heat beam, they always need to fly right through the planet.

Like I said before, "in the history of Superman, that's the biggest crater he ever created by punching his enemy". As of now, no scans showing that Superman's punch is more destructive than SSJ3 Gotenks'.
At least show some scenario similar to SSJ3 Gotenks' punch.

[Brohan]

Wolf, you're a good debater (is that a word?). Savage is about the best debater on here, but you got him burnt so far.

[Perfect]

Savage is about the best debater on here

Subjective.

[Brohan]

Meh what do I know? I'm a 15 year old black kid from Pittsburgh.

[Mewzard]

A more dream match up for me:

Super Vegetto


vs

God Cloth'd Pegasus Seiya


In the battle I call "Staying Golden"

...<_< *smacks self* Yes, that was horrible.

But the strongest (to this point) version of the main characters of my top two favorite manga of all time battling it out would be quite a sight.

Of course, both have their own strengths and weaknesses.

Diversity in technique would go to Vegetto, as he, should, have the techniques of both Goku and Vegetto, where as Seiya only has his big three *Pegasus Ryu Sei Ken (Pegasus Meteor Punch)- A fast, frequent hitting technique, Pegasus Sui Sei Ken (Pegasus Comet Punch)-Combining all of those punches into one hard strike, and Pegasus Rolling Crush (Can't remember the original name)- Grabbing the foe, leaping high into the sky (over a mile when he first used it), and crashing the foe into the ground*.

But, the question comes to: Attack Power, Stamina, Endurance, Speed...these are more debatable.

[Savage68]

At least show some scenario similar to SSJ3 Gotenks' punch.

So, you're looking specifically for a scenario that depicts Superman whacking some object down onto Earth's surface (other than the scene from Sacrifice, in which Supes was under mind control)? I can't help you there.

[astrallite]

It's fair, at least we can say that scene alone (punching Diana vs Punching Buu) are equivalent feats; SSJ3 Gotenks might have a slight advantage. We will conveniently ignore feats like pushing/pulling planets because you could argue that blowing up a planet is a feat of equivalent level (although a pointless feat since Superman could tank it and Saiyans can't survive in Space per manga canon). Speed-wise, Superman can go near-light speed but requires some acceleration time. Gotenks best feat is going around the world 5 times in 1 panel. If you want to presume it took only 1 second, he is capable of about 68% of the speed of light at Super Saiyan 1. Acceleration force at that speed is immense and logarithmic, so even if he gets 8 times stronger at SSJ3 he might not be any more than a few % points faster.

So it's not inconceivable that SSJ3 Gotenks >= Current Superman that is non-haxed by things like hanging out in the sun for a bit. Conditions are, in terrestrial melee combat, no battlefield removal allowed (such as Gotenks getting tossed into space and then dying of asphyxiation).

Too bad SSJ3 Gotenks only lasts 5 minutes, Supes fight Doomsday for what, almost an entire day? So we have a short lived fusion.

Neither Mystic Gohan nor Super Vegitto actually have any feats to speak of, so despite their in-universe implication to be > than SSJ3 Gotenks...can't really back it up if you want to compare with DC or Marvel.

Also it looks even worse for Gohan because he was barely standing after about 3 punches by Gotenks Buu. Gotenks tanked a ki-blast and looked wasted, but then recovered completely without injury the next panel. Of course we all know inside that it's a gag fight, but it's basically a feat of stamina, whereas Gohan just looks like a bum.

[Brohan]

I like to think Gotenks was already around the same ball park as Gohan strength-wise, otherwise Buu trashing him after absorbing Gotenks wouldn't make much sense. Sorta something like this:

Gohan:10
Buu:4
Gotenks:8
Buutenks:13[extra 1 from Piccolo]

[Fox666]

vs

God Cloth'd Pegasus Seiya

You can't defeat a Saint Seiya character, the character powers float depending of the plot. The characer without a cloth are not more durable than a human, however if the plot requires, without the cloth they can survive the strongest attack of the series.

[lonewolf]

At least show some scenario similar to SSJ3 Gotenks' punch.

So, you're looking specifically for a scenario that depicts Superman whacking some object down onto Earth's surface (other than the scene from Sacrifice, in which Supes was under mind control)? I can't help you there.

No I'm not, it's a similar scene of punching his opponent like what I posted for Flash and Superman, not flying through his opponent, quit playing with the words. I'm just saying, you didn't show anything that surpasses SSJ3 Gotenks' in terms of punching power.
Superman was under mind control in the Sacrifice Storyline, but that mind control was to make WonderWoman look like Doomsday in Superman's eyesight, in otherwords the Superman from the sacrifice storyline was the same Superman but he doesn't hold back or bloodlusted similar to Superboy Prime. Superman's punch is still less destructive.
Still, you fail to show us something that Superman's punch is more destructive. Out-comic universe logic, it's easier to draw a giant crater than buildings and planets, Superman's punch is less destructive.

At least show some scans similar to SSJ3 Gotenks' punch. As of now, no scans showing that Superman's punch is more destructive than SSJ3 Gotenks'. Punching WonderWoman and Punching Buu, it's pretty clear which is more destructive.

It's fair, at least we can say that scene alone (punching Diana vs Punching Buu) are equivalent feats; SSJ3 Gotenks might have a slight advantage. We will conveniently ignore feats like pushing/pulling planets because you could argue that blowing up a planet is a feat of equivalent level (although a pointless feat since Superman could tank it and Saiyans can't survive in Space per manga canon). Speed-wise, Superman can go near-light speed but requires some acceleration time. Gotenks best feat is going around the world 5 times in 1 panel. If you want to presume it took only 1 second, he is capable of about 68% of the speed of light at Super Saiyan 1. Acceleration force at that speed is immense and logarithmic, so even if he gets 8 times stronger at SSJ3 he might not be any more than a few % points faster.

Speed is useless to discuss with DC/Marvel characters because they can be out skilled by lesser beings. Karate Kid's skill alone is enough to predict Superman's movement. Superman could tank a moon buster but he would get knock out.