Is Coola a liar and/or stupid?

[Vagrant]

Base Goku getting a 40x zenkai is completely reasonable though. Seeing as how Goku got a 33x zenkai in the Freeza Saga, and the entire point of creating movies is to create a bigger and badder villian, logic would tell us that a 40x zenkai is seriously not all that crazy...

No, logic would tell us you just... make the villain stronger than the previous one. That's all logic dictates. You could make him twice as strong as Freeza and have no auto-evolution, and that's just as simple. Any need for having an auto-evolution is prefaced by the assumption that Coola is going to be 40-50x as strong as Freeza. Which is just weird, since it's generally assumed that the Androids weren't even that strong. If you don't make the initial assumption that Coola is so ridiculously strong then you don't need to assume another auto-evolution.

[p123]

It's quite possible that TOEI did not get the memo yet that SSJs do not receive zenkais anymore. The movie was created during Kaiokenx10 Goku vs 50% Freeza. We have no reason to assume that zenkais would have stopped at that point...

Not to mention, zenkais just ended at the Freeza Saga. If it was just about SSJ, realistically Vegeta could have gave him massive zenakais in 300x gravity over and over again prior to Trunks arriving, and end up with a base power way beyond SSJ Goku/Freeza's power if the zenkais kept getting stronger and stronger...

[astrallite]

Coola doesn't have his scouter and can't sense ki. For all we know he's just putting down Freeza to make himself feel like he can defeat a superior opponent.

[Vagrant]

Well, this is an in-universe discussion so usually the best way to handle it is to try to work around the in-universe or codified statements first, rather than just say "Oh they didn't know this at this time so it's not true". That ignores the point of it being in-universe.

@ the above post: It seems pretty much a given by now that Coola can actually sense ki. He can suppress his ki and later on can perform IT, and manages to locate Goku with no issues at all, so all indications are he can sense ki.

[p123]

Well in universe, zenkais stop after the Freeza Saga. Seeing how the movie was created during the time the Freeza Saga was in progress, there would be no reason for the zenkais to stop.

Nothing suggests that Base Vegeta or Base Gohan could receive zenkais anymore once they leave Namek. One would think that if Vegeta could receive zenkais, he would have continously hurt himself and healed himself in the 300x gravity room, much like how Goku did, until Vegeta's Base surpassed Goku's SSJ. Seeing as that didn't happen, logically AT just did away with the zenkais post Freeza Saga...

[Vagrant]

Yes, but "after the Freeza arc" ties in just fine with "after reaching SSj" from an in-universe perspective. And even if not, Coola is after the Freeza arc. So no auto-evolution for Goku in the movie whichever way you cut it.

We're going round in circles. You think the auto-evolution had to happen based on a statement by Coola that could possibly be explained another way, I think it couldn't have happened based on a statement by a supplementary source. That's about where we'll continue to sit no matter how much we counter each other.

[lash]

Base Goku being stronger than Freeza is the normal POV considering if Goku received a zenkai, and was already stronger than he was on Namek, of course him receiving a 30-40x zenkai would be the normal POV considering he received a 33x zenkai on Namek...

Near death powerups are irrelevant/small after the Freeza arc. I don't see why movies wouldn't continue this approach without folks giving the overused bad excuse "oh its "Toei".

Trying to twist logic to imply Cooler was 3 million is just nerfing of Cooler's massive power...

Freeza was still considered hot shit in this movie. There's no logical way in hell the movie is trying to imply that normal non Kaioken base Goku is stronger then that same Freeza. In fact, Freeza can literally be killed in his lower suppression forms or lower final form percentage powers too... have we all forgotten? Cooler's squad were thinking they were going to do battle with a guy who's stronger then 100% Freeza and win? Lets get real. Generally saying "oh you're well enough to have beaten my brother" or whatever he said is an insanely vague statement. It does not have to mean Freeza was beaten in his 100% form at all.

[p123]

Lol, auto evolution? We are getting awfully fancy to try to nerf Cooler now aren't we...


Base Goku did well enough to beat Freeza. Bottom line. I really don't understand how that is debatable, it's straight up told to us by Freeza's brother... Doesn't get much easier than that...

[Savage68]

Generally saying "oh you're well enough to have beaten my brother" or whatever he said is an insanely vague statement.

Mmm... no, that's actually abundantly specific. "You've done well enough to defeat my brother" means just that, barring it's meaning being scrutinized and muddied.

[Vagrant]

Uh oh. Fallible in-universe character made a statement that makes no sense?

Remove the auto-evolution thing (as evidenced by a Daizenshuu statement) and there's nothing that indicates any possible way he could have been strong enough to face Freeza in base.

It's not unheard of for the movie makers to have an intent and then for that to be altered by word of the guidebooks. I refer of course to Movie 4. Goku was Super Saiyajin in that, now he's not. Same here, there may have been intent for an auto-evolution in Movie 5, but that's been stated to not matter now.

Base Goku > Freeza also introduces a whole slew of other problems, including how Salza's Crew seemed about the same as him, so are thus all probably at least equal to 50% Freeza, and yet Piccolo was able to handle them without any issues. Not even mentioning how Gohan and Krillin managed to do anything.

You have to make some absurd leaps in faith and ignore a statement regarding the nature of the DB world to assume that Goku was stronger than Freeza. On the flip side, to make everything work nice and neat you only have to assume that Coola was:
a) mistaken and later clarified for himself
or
b) referring to Goku's unrevealed but otherwise evident power and/or his skill

[Rocketman]

Cooler knows Freeza normally stayed in a form with a power level of 530,000. Goku at 3,000,000 would be enough to kill Freeza in his first, second and third forms.

[Savage68]

Okay, Vagrant.

Can you please enlighten us all as to what the definition of "auto-evolution" is? I keep trying to overlook the term, but I'm now genuinely curious.

[Vagrant]

Auto-evolution is zenkai. Sorry, I just tend to call it that, from habit on previous forums where almost no terms remained in romaji. Zenkai seems to mean something along the lines of "full throttle health recovery" from memory, and the forum I used to discuss on simplified it to auto-evolution. Getting stronger to face a threat that nearly killed you before.

[lash]

Generally saying "oh you're well enough to have beaten my brother" or whatever he said is an insanely vague statement.

Mmm... no, that's actually abundantly specific. "You've done well enough to defeat my brother" means just that, barring it's meaning being scrutinized and muddied.

It's vague as in we don't know exactly how Cooler thinks Goku defeated his brother.

[Savage68]

It's vague as in we don't know exactly how Cooler thinks Goku defeated his brother.

Keywords: Barring its meaning being scrutinized and muddied. If we're willing to take such a counter-productive stance for a perfectly decisive statement, we may as well be questioning every other seemingly direct indicator / admission of power in the series with an axe to grind.

Auto-evolution is zenkai.

In that case, you'd be better off sticking with "auto-evolution." In either case, the Super Saiyan + healing boost "rule" hadn't been established until some time after the Android arc began; after Goku's Super Saiyan transformation was under his control and certainly long after Movie 5 was put into production. In the manga, it's made crystal clear that the-worst-plot-device-in-DB-ever ceased to exist after Namek, but in Movie 5, it's obvious that Goku's power dramatically rose after eating the Senzu and healing from the brink of death. He goes from nearly dying at Coola's hand to fighting on even grounds with him, and blowing up Sauza's Scouter / dispatching of him with a flared aura.

[lash]

Keywords: Barring it's meaning being scrutinized and muddied. If we're willing to take such a counter-productive stance for a perfectly decisive statement, we may as well be questioning every other seemingly direct indicator / admission of power in the series with an axe to grind.

With the wording used and the circumstances surrounding it, it is appropriate to question it in this case.

How is Coola comparing Goku to Freeza? Did he fight both himself? By Freeza's own words, only his parent(s) have ever even put dust on him. And only Goku has ever even excited Freeza.
Clearly whatever fight Coola or Freeza had in the past or whatever observance Coola got on Freeza ...it wasn't a fair representation of what Freeza was truly capable of.

You may think so...but the meaning obviously isn't as direct as you think it is if people have different interpretations of it.
Cooler says Goku is well enough to defeat Freeza. That doesn't mean Goku has a Ki higher than Freeza's best.

[Savage68]

Tons of statements in the Buu arc are misconstrued or molested into meanings that probably are nonexistent (I direct your attention to Ten vs. Krillin and Goku vs. Gohan), but none of those arguments are compelling, because when you're reading a comic or watching a cartoon that uses its characters to relay ground rules to the reader / viewer, the simplest interpretations are the only ones that really matter. In the case of Coola, we can 'ask' ourselves if Coola really knew his brother's full power, despite that he claimed the title of "strongest," or we can 'throw into the equation' comments made on Namek that obviously have nothing to do with a character that hadn't been thought of yet. (Hell, even Giant Slug was humored to have surpassed Freeza.) Or, we could go ahead and apply the Razor and say: "Coola's written as the strongest, Coola's written as a superior to Freeza's superior, Goku's about the same as Coola and Coola equates Freeza to Goku." Which are all factual conclusions that don't require second-guessing to reach.

[p123]

Lol how did ...


Hmph, you did as well as I expected. Enough to have defeated my brother.




Get mistranslated to....


Hmph, you did as well as I expected. Enough to NOT HAVE defeated my brother.



You guys are crazy... Lol...

[lash]

Tons of statements in the Buu arc are misconstrued or molested into meanings that probably are nonexistent (I direct your attention to Ten vs. Krillin and Goku vs. Gohan), but none of those arguments are compelling, because when you're reading a comic or watching a cartoon that uses its characters to relay ground rules to the reader / viewer, the simplest interpretations are the only ones that really matter.

The simplest interpretation isn't always the correct one Savage. In fact, it rarely ever is. Even in a comic/cartoon.

In the case of Coola, we can 'ask' ourselves if Coola really knew his brother's full power, despite that he claimed the title of "strongest," or we can 'throw into the equation' comments made on Namek that obviously have nothing to do with a character that hadn't been thought of yet.
(Hell, even Giant Slug was humored to have surpassed Freeza.)

Who says Cooler hadn't been thought up yet? An in-universe approach doesn't excuse statements made. Aren't you arguing to keep statements as simple and direct as you think they are said? There's no reason not to throw such into 'the equation' when trying to reach the most accurate interpretation.
(Which is fine. Considering Kaiosama didn't know the extent of Freeza's power).

Or, we could go ahead and apply the Razor and say: "Coola's written as the strongest, Coola's written as a superior to Freeza's superior, Goku's about the same as Coola and Coola equates Freeza to Goku." Which are all factual conclusions that don't require second-guessing to reach.

There's absolutely no indication made that Cooler surpasses Freeza in his normal state, in fact the opposite is told. Since you assume so anyway, the Razor certainly isn't backing this up in the slightest and you shouldn't make the mistake by acting like it is. Cooler is only reliably stated to surpass Freeza when Goku states so after Cooler transforms. Goku didn't say he was in his prior form even after getting one shot owned by him earlier(which would be an appropriate time to state such). Therefore he wasn't.
Cooler defeats Goku in one blast. Cooler thinks Goku just might have defeated Freeza only because he was able to strike back from his position. Cooler reinstates the same exact thing after a brief fight Goku and him had. After Goku unleashes SSJ, Goku is finally said to be something Freeza has no match against.
Applying the Razor: SSJ Goku in this movie is something Freeza was no match for. Coola's final form is stated stronger than Freeza. Coola's normal form is not. Base Goku was shown to be roughly as strong as Coola's normal form. Therefore Base Goku is not stronger then Freeza.

Applying the Razor to the other quotes, gives you a conflict. Normal Goku who is roughly even with normal Coola can not be greater then Freeza or it conflicts with Goku's own quote. This is why a different interpretation is required.

Furthermore, there's no logical reason why Goku's normal form would surpass his Namek SSJ state. Even if one were to argue that near death powerups were significant, a supposed one in this movie did NOT get him to the "you can defeat Freeza" level. Cooler states this twice: once before he transforms and another where he earlier shot Goku down when they first met. After fighting with Goku...he mutters that Goku does as well as he expected. In other words, Cooler is just reinforcing what he already thought of Goku from the first time he defeated him. So if Goku didn't get much of a powerup from being near death....how else did he get his supposed stronger-then-his-SSJ Namek self increase in normal form? Shooting Kamehamehas in the water?

The movie was well in production before Freeza re-appeared. Super Saiyan is still the epitome of power. Face it. It makes no logical sense that the movie would be trying to portray to us that normal ole Goku in the beginning of the movie is greater then the legendary power he displayed against Freeza. There's no support, no fan assumption to excuse it, and simply isn't the definite case in the movie considering the quotes you think should be simple and direct can be interpreted differently. Occam's razor doesn't support them either unfortunately, sorry.

[p123]

Where is Cooler suggested to be stronger than Freeza?
When Cooler transforms, Goku says , " He is stronger than Freeza ". Seeing as how if Cooler > Freeza would be true, that statement would be pointless, one could assume that Freeza is not surpassed by Cooler until Cooler transforms...

However, Cooler is most likely on par with Freeza, probably only a tiny bit weaker...