.

[Kaboom]

So we can all agree that: Vegetto > Super Buu (Gohan) > Super Buu (Gotenks) > Ultimate Gohan > Piccolo Buu > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > SSJ3 Son Goku > Kid Buu > Evil Buu > Fat Buu.

I can agree to that, except I would keep Fat Boo stronger than Skinny Boo (Evil Buu).

Me too. One part cannot be greater than the whole.

[p123]

SSJ Vegetto
Buuhan
Buutenks
Ultimate Gohan
Buff Buu
SSJ3 Gotenks
Buucollo
Super Buu



Fat > Evil > Good



Buucolo is only stronger than Super Buu by a tiny amount. Hardly even worth mentioning really. Piccolo's power + Base Goten/Trunks + Super Buu is hardly a drop in the bucket. I believe SSJ3 Gotenks has a slight advantage, but more than just simply Piccolo + Base Goten/Trunks so Super Gotenks > Buucolo by a little bit IMO..

[Rocketman]

Vegetto > Everybody else put together.

[p123]

I see Buuhan at around 50% of SSJ Vegetto at minimum...

So SSJ3 Vegetto would at absolute minimum be 16x stronger than Buuhan. Buuhan can absorb everything in the universe, he can never close that gap...

[jackjack]

Yes, because "The Kaioshin weakened Boo" cannot possibly be interpreted in the plural sense

If they were meant to affect Boo the same way, I just find it strange that AT would have him absorb two Kaioshins when just one could've done the job, then went out of his way to mention that one of them is strong, whereas the other one is gentle natured as though they had different effects. Oh, and quotes like "...but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…" clearly suggests Boo was still uncontrollable prior to absorbing DK, so that's another theory gone bonkers if you ask me.
And instead of “We did it! This way we might be able to manage something,” why didn't we get something about his ki increasing even further, like when he was reverting to his bulky form?

Goku being the strongest of the heroes

Mind telling me where in the daizenshuu is that stated?

[lash]

Who's "Goji"?

Gojirason, some guy from some forums (namely MFG) that specialized in making long-winded and convoluted posts that argue Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu. And yes, that post was definitely made by him. It warms my heart to know that some guys are still under his sway, even after all this time.

Yes, because "The Kaioshin weakened Boo" cannot possibly be interpreted in the plural sense, and the Daizenshuu clearly stating all that jazz about being fellow strongest and about Goku being the strongest of the heroes can't have any impact on a debate whatsoever. Oh wait, yes it all can.

If you take only manga in consideration, that's fine, but I often see people choosing to utilise bits and pieces from the Daizenshuu and then ignoring other parts, so I feel the conflict should be mentioned. Fact is, those statements are there and it's entirely suitable to bring them up in such a debate as one facet of the argument. I generally just choose to argue for whichever side isn't being supported since that's the fun of it, and since it really doesn't matter in the long run who was stronger.

I remember adding a different interpretation of the Daiz quotes to Gojirason's post back in MFG about a year or two ago. He couldn't really counter it and ended up really heated because of that.
That was fun.

Anyway I'll give a quick shutdown summary for the heck of it:

Defeat Boo!
Goku fought with the revived Boo. Goku tried to have the next generation resolve this problem, but in the end he was the one who defeated Boo, the strongest in the universe, after being resurrected by receiving the life of the Dai-Kaioshin. Thereupon, he meets with Boo's reincarnation, Oob. In order to raise Oob, who didn't know how to fight, he flew off.

It's speaking about Majin Boo in general...who had been "the strongest in the universe" many instances at varies times.
The "revived Boo" Goku fought(Fatso) is different then the problem the next generation(Goten/Trunks) had to solve(Fatso & Super Boo). Both are of course different then the one Goku defeated(Pure Boo). Yet this quote treats them all as the exact same problem/person. Therefore it seems to be Boo in general, and not necessarily any specific boo.

Goku's feelings are only understood by his fellow strongest.

Dumb point if you ask me. All it could really mean is that Pure Boo is the strongest being Goku has ever fought(which is true), since his saiyan feelings for a fair rematch take place. The two were even anyway, so Goku doesn't necessarily have to crap himself like he did Super Boo. As for before the fight, even flipping Vegeta wanted a piece of Pure Boo. They have moved over from the scared and desperate zone and entered the more comfortable: we should be able to handle-it-so-lets-somewhat-enjoy-ourselves-as saiyans-zone.

Yes Goku likes a good match. He even loves fighting beings that might be stronger than him so it pushes him harder. But if the guy knows he's completely outclassed, he's going to tremble not get excited. There was no off characterization for Goku in the midst of Super Boo. Goku knew he would get his behind handed to him, which is why he showed fear and wanted to avoid all direct confrontation. It's the same with Raditz. His saiyan blood wasn't stirring boiling there or anywhere in his desperate to save Gohan and the earth fight. Goku was trembling when Raditz came and ended up DEAD when Raditz was gone.
So no, this quote doesn't establish that Goku and Pure Boo at that time are the 2 strongest, nor does it established that Boo is stronger than Goku at all. I'm not even going to bother addressing the rest of the mumbo jumbo Goji wrote.

Q: Out of all your characters, which one is the most cool?
A: I think it's Goku. The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!

Oh please. That doesn't necessarily mean Goku is stronger then Gohan in the Boo arc. The series sure didn't end at the Boo arc did it? Respecting Toriyama's opinion anyone can simply say Goku > Gohan at the end of the series...which I fully concur with.

I mean the same Daizenshuu states Gohan has higher potential then Goku. Then goes on to state SSJ3 draws out all the hidden power of a saiyan to the limit. Then states Elder Kaioshin drew out Gohan's max potential far above his limits. In other words the same Daiz offhandedly explains: Ultimate Gohan > theoretical SSJ3 Gohan > SSJ3 Goku. Perhaps Goku in some odd way broke past his potential wall in the 10 years and surpassed Ultimate Gohan. But before that? Very, very unlikely. The thought of boo arc SSJ3 Goku surpassing the fusion of SSJ3 Gotenks is already on the path to insanity.

[Vagrant]

Oh yeah Lash, don't get me wrong, I still think it's far more likely that Shin Boo is stronger and I know you can interpret the quotes Goji presented far more generally, I just like stirring up a rousing debate. Honestly, the idea that Goku is stronger than Gohan at that point always seemed insane, so I have no problems accepting otherwise

[dbgtFO]

Piccolo from the Androids Saga being stronger than SSJ Trunks in the Trunks Saga in 3 years , meanwhile Piccolo is not suggested to be anything more than Base Saiyan strength in the Trunks Saga...

Trunks in the android arc is not stated/implied or shown as being significantly stronger, than he was 3 years ago. Piccolo is implied to be way weaker than this same Trunks, which yields the conclusion that Piccolo(androids) << Trunks(mecha & androids).
Here's Trunks' quotes:

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4
Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…
Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”

Chapter: 348 (DBZ 154), P6.1
Context: after Piccolo says Super Saiyan Vegeta might beat No.17 and No.18
Trunks: “I-I was able to become a Super Saiyan too…B-but, I was absolutely no match for them…They’re stupendously strong…”

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Context: Trunks compares No.17 and No.18 in his time line to the ones in the present
Trunks: “They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

Do these in any way imply that Trunks(mecha) < Trunks(androids)?
I personally can't see it.

@topic
Exactly jackjack it's almost stated pretty clearly, that Dai Kaioshin was the only guy lowering Boo's power, what with "Kibitoshin" emphasizing that DK made him controllable and what not.

And I can agree with the general consensus that Kid < Super & Goku < Gohan. I just thought it was interesting to bring all those quotes and comments, that were made to the table especially the one about Gohan's contribution to the Genki Dama not being enough to wipe out Boo, when Goku's Kamehameha could have, since I don't believe in BP multipliers of ki blasts and the like.

[CatouttaHell]

I'm probably going to get flamed for this but, according to my Manga power levels, from strongest to weakest:

SSjin Vegetto
Boohan
Bootenks
Chibi Boo
SSjin 3 Goku
Buff Boo
Ultimate Gohan
Booccolo
SSjin 3 Gotenks/Shin Boo
Aku Boo
Fat Boo
Mr. Boo

And by my Anime power levels:

Chibi Boo
SSjin 3 Goku
SSjin Vegetto
Chaotic Boohan (Boohan so furious that part of Chibi Boo's power came through)
Boohan
Bootenks
Buff Boo
Ultimate Gohan
Booccolo
SSjin 3 Gotenkusu/Shin Boo
Aku Boo
Fat Boo
Mr. Boo

[Nazi Cola]

I still don't get how someone Goku fused to make could be weaker than him. That'd be like adding two Gokus together, but having the fused product still end up weaker than the original Goku. I just don't know.

[Son Edo]

Anime
SSJ Vegetto
SSJ3 Son Goku
Chibi Boo
Boohan(Dimension Rip)
Boohan=Base Vegetto
Boohan(Holding back)
Bootenks
Chou Son Gohan
SSJ3 Gotenks
Booccolo
Shin Boo
SSJ3 Son Goku

[CatouttaHell]

I still don't get how someone Goku fused to make could be weaker than him. That'd be like adding two Gokus together, but having the fused product still end up weaker than the original Goku. I just don't know.

I don't believe Goku is stronger than Vegetto, only that SSjin 3 Goku surpasses SSjin Vegetto, and not by a huge amount. I, of course, still believe that a SSjin 2 Vegetto would utterly curbstomp even SSjin 3 Goku.

[Nazi Cola]

I still don't get how someone Goku fused to make could be weaker than him. That'd be like adding two Gokus together, but having the fused product still end up weaker than the original Goku. I just don't know.

I don't believe Goku is stronger than Vegetto, only that SSjin 3 Goku surpasses SSjin Vegetto, and not by a huge amount. I, of course, still believe that a SSjin 2 Vegetto would utterly curbstomp even SSjin 3 Goku.

But that's still like adding 2+2 and ending up with 1, which is smaller than the original 2. It doesn't make sense in the slightest, but I suppose that is the anime for ya. Still, it didn't seem like Vegetto was being completely overwhelmed, just that he needed to exert more effort than his nonchalant level at that point. That's just what I think, though.

[Rory]

At what point in the anime did Pure Boo prove himself to be so strong?

[dbgtFO]

At what point in the anime did Pure Boo prove himself to be so strong?

http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... =8&t=15735

[p123]

Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”

This would be from Trunks ( Trunks Saga )

Even I could fight them fairly well…”

This would be from Trunks ( Androids Saga )



Seeing as how it took Trunks 3 years to return, and that he is not all that different from Goku/Vegeta, according to Tien.

Trunks ( Androids ) >> Trunks ( Trunks Saga ) Would be the logical POV.


Not to mention Trunks ( Androids ) > Piccolo ( Androids ) > Trunks ( Trunks Saga )

Would fit in line with the manga. In which SSJ Trunks ( Trunks Saga ) implies he has nothing for the Androids, while Piccolo ( Androids ) is not lacking in confidence, and still inferior to Trunks ( Androids ).


Man that's a tongue twister... JackJack, would be nice to hear you add to this, you generally are good at explaining this particular topic...

[dbgtFO]

Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”

This would be from Trunks ( Trunks Saga )

Even I could fight them fairly well…”

This would be from Trunks ( Androids Saga )

Yeah, but there was that quote from his android saga self, before he took off to find the present androids, where he clearly states he was no match for them.

Chapter: 348 (DBZ 154), P6.1
Context: after Piccolo says Super Saiyan Vegeta might beat No.17 and No.18
Trunks: “I-I was able to become a Super Saiyan too…B-but, I was absolutely no match for them…They’re stupendously strong…”

And then he goes on to state, that he could fight his androids well, which would make his last statement look more like a lie, than anything.

[jackjack]

“Don’t talk crazy, Goku! There’s no way he’d be able to fight! It’s true that he’s raised his abilities so much that he’s unrecognizable, but his opponent is Cell, who even you were no match for!”

Goku can put up a fight, but he's no match for Cell.

[dbgtFO]

“Don’t talk crazy, Goku! There’s no way he’d be able to fight! It’s true that he’s raised his abilities so much that he’s unrecognizable, but his opponent is Cell, who even you were no match for!”

Goku can put up a fight, but he's no match for Cell.

I see..
Before it gets too off-topic, I just wanna say, if Trunks really was significantly stronger than 3 years ago, we should at least have gotten a proper statement confirming it, other than the entirely interpretation dependent statement about being able to fight his future androids well compared to the present ones, which to me doesn't really say anything about his power increase.

@Topic
Anime Version:
Vegetto
SSJ 3 Goku = Pure Boo
Evil Boo(+ Gohan & Co.)
Evil Boo(+ Gotenks & Piccolo)
Gohan
Pure Boo(+ South Kaioshin)
Evil Boo(+ Piccolo & Co.) >= Evil Boo(+ Piccolo)
SSJ 3 Gotenks >= Evil Boo

Manga version:
Vegetto
Evil Boo(+ Gohan & Co.)
Evil Boo(+ Gotenks & Piccolo)
Gohan
Pure Boo(+ South Kaioshin)
SSJ 3 Gotenks
Evil Boo(+ Piccolo & Co.) >= Evil Boo(+ Piccolo) >= Evil Boo
SSJ 3 Goku = Pure Boo

[jackjack]

But then what about Goku? We don't really get any direct statement on his strength, either (Trunks is right on his tail). Do you think he's improved by a good amount?