.

[dbgtFO]

But then what about Goku? We don't really get any direct statement on his strength, either (Trunks is right on his tail). Do you think he's improved by a good amount?

I don't think he improved much either, since it isn't like he's amazingly confident in his own ability to defeat the Androids:

Piccolo: “How about it, Son Goku…Frankly, do you think we can win against this enemy…”
Goku: “There’s no way I could know that without even seeing them. I’ll answer once I give it a try.”
Piccolo: “You’re pretty carefree…It’s not like I lack confidence…However, I can’t clear this uneasy premonition from my mind…”

Tenshinhan: “Th-this is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…He definitely can’t win…! Not even Goku…”

And Tenshinhan's comment doesn't seem to imply that Trunks is any stronger than 3 years ago.

[CatouttaHell]

At what point in the anime did Pure Boo prove himself to be so strong?

In addition to the quotes that dbgtFO pasted, it's also implied that the insane power that Boohan generated when he became chaotic from fury was a part of Chibi Boo's power coming through, hence why he was so out of his mind. He even seemed to not have understood what just happened himself.

[jackjack]

I don't think he improved much either, since it isn't like he's amazingly confident in his own ability to defeat the Androids:

I'm not sure how much is "much" to you.

And Tenshinhan's comment doesn't seem to imply that Trunks is any stronger than 3 years ago.

If you were trying to convince me that he wasn't any stronger, you'd need better evidence than this.

[dbgtFO]

And Tenshinhan's comment doesn't seem to imply that Trunks is any stronger than 3 years ago.

If you were trying to convince me that he wasn't any stronger, you'd need better evidence than this.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I just doubt the "proof" of Trunks being significantly stronger, than 3 years ago.

[jackjack]

Simple logic, really. If Goku has improved, then Trunks has also improved (unless you have Goku < Trunks when they first met?). What do you expect him to say, anyway (we're talking about Goku here, not Vegeta)? It's not like he'd received some insane over 10x increase his Namek counterpart experienced by taking gravity hell for 5 days straight while feasting on multiple recovery boosts. But even then, I don't remember him spouting off cocky shit about defeating Freeza.

[p123]

Ugh, dude they all trained for 3 years. That is what warrants a significant boost.

Goku > Trunks in the Trunks Saga, is probably by a similar amount in the Androids Saga. The only thing that changes is that Vegeta is a part of the situation now..

3 years of training is going to have to warrant some sort of increase don't you think?


If you don't think Trunks is signficantly stronger, than you also don't think Goku/Vegeta are significantly stronger. And that 3 years of training for a life and death situation got them bupkis...

[Vagrant]

To be honest, I don't see regular training as giving you significant increases. Keep in mind that Goku had nobody of his own caliber to spar with, he was mostly working on bringing up Gohan and Piccolo in terms of power. DBZ has shown us that to gain really significant increases you need exotic training (Kaio's 10x gravity, then 100x gravity + auto evolutions, then Vegeta's 300x gravity, then the Room of Spirit and Time, etc etc).

Simple fact is every single Z Warrior is well beyond the average on the curve now, so training should realistically be little more than a way to maintain the strength they currently have unless they're doing something particularly unusual. I do believe they got stronger, I just don't think it was a very impressive increase. Vegeta would have gained the most, given his special training regime, and I actually peg him quite a lot stronger than even healthy Goku until they have their RoSaT training sessions.

[jackjack]

I do believe they got stronger, I just don't think it was a very impressive increase.

What do you have, then?

[Vagrant]

I give Goku about a 300k increase from Trunks' warning to the Androids. That's not much given during Trunks' time he was already at 3,500,000 by my reckoning, but from an in-universe setting, gaining 300,000 out of regular training is still an amazingly good effort. I have Vegeta sitting pretty at about 4,100,000 thanks to training in far higher gravity and with far more zeal than Goku could afford whilst training up Piccolo and Gohan. Minor auto-evolutions before finally becoming Super Saiyajin also helped Vegeta out a bit in my opinion.

So by the end of it, I still don't have Goku passing the 200 mil mark. Of course, this is all random BP speculatiopn. My main point is simply what I said before: Goku didn't have extraordinary training and had to cater to training others, thus I doubt his strength increased significantly. This would also tie in with Trunks not gaining too much more power either.

[jackjack]

300k is way to0 small of an increase (lol, at least for me).

Goku didn't have extraordinary training and had to cater to training others, thus I doubt his strength increased significantly.

By that logic, Trunks could've never surpassed his master (in what, the same timeslip to train in as Goku, without any extraordinary training and with nobody at all to spar with?).

[Fox666]

Particularly I don't think any any-power for Goku after the Namek saga is worth noting. The Daizenshuu even states that 3 million was Goku's limit, and he only developed after that due to transformations.

Each time Goku trained after that, he learned something different. On Yadorat he learned how to teleport, during the 3 years prior to the android arrival he developed the Kamehameha¹, and after that Goku keep learning a new Super Saiyan form.

¹Piccolo notes while fighting Cell that Goku Kamehameha is very different from what Cell used. In fact the Kamehameha gets very important holes in the Cell Games

[p123]

Really? I would think that this scenario would be the obvious case....


Goku ( Buu Saga ) >Goku ( Cell Games ) >>>> Goku ( Androids ) > Goku ( Trunks Saga ) > Goku ( Namek )


Would be definitley be note worthy...


If the Daiz says that Goku's limit is 3 million, then obviously they are clearly wrong...Which wouldn't be the first time of course...

[Rocketman]

By that logic, Trunks could've never surpassed his master (in what, the same timeslip to train in as Goku, without any extraordinary training and with nobody at all to spar with?).

Anybody can train better than Gohan.

[jackjack]

You kinda missed the point.

[Fox666]

Really? I would think that this scenario would be the obvious case....


Goku ( Buu Saga ) >Goku ( Cell Games ) >>>> Goku ( Androids ) > Goku ( Trunks Saga ) > Goku ( Namek )


Would be definitley be note worthy...


If the Daiz says that Goku's limit is 3 million, then obviously they are clearly wrong...Which wouldn't be the first time of course...

Goku might be strong in the Cell Games, but that's a side-effect of mastering the Super Saiyan. Goku body limit being 3 million sounds fair.

Besides, the battle power given for Goku (150 million) compared to Freeza (120 million) gives enough margin for Trunks defeat Freeza and still being impressed by Goku ability.

[dbgtFO]

Simple logic, really. If Goku has improved, then Trunks has also improved (unless you have Goku < Trunks when they first met?). What do you expect him to say, anyway (we're talking about Goku here, not Vegeta)? It's not like he'd received some insane over 10x increase his Namek counterpart experienced by taking gravity hell for 5 days straight while feasting on multiple recovery boosts. But even then, I don't remember him spouting off cocky shit about defeating Freeza.

The fact that they only gain a significant power increase, when they enter the RoSaT is enough for me to believe that they most certainly didn't increase much, if at all. Here I'm only talking about Saiyans. Vegeta got Super Saiyan, which was noted and shown.

Ugh, dude they all trained for 3 years. That is what warrants a significant boost.

Goku > Trunks in the Trunks Saga, is probably by a similar amount in the Androids Saga. The only thing that changes is that Vegeta is a part of the situation now..

3 years of training is going to have to warrant some sort of increase don't you think?

Not for me, when it required nothing less than RoSaT to increase their powers significantly. From the looks of it, Vegeta, Piccolo & Tenshinhan were the only ones, who accomplished something worth noting ie. Vegeta with SSJ, Piccolo with power rivalling SSJ & Tenshinhan with Shin Kikoho. Gohan didn't even receive SSJ before going into RoSaT and Goku had 3 full years to go beyond SSJ, yet it was first, when he stepped inside RoSaT he accomplished it arguably in less than a month.

If you don't think Trunks is signficantly stronger, than you also don't think Goku/Vegeta are significantly stronger. And that 3 years of training for a life and death situation got them bupkis...

Which is what the story shows me, what with Gohan not being SSJ or uber powerful in base and the only things worth noting being Vegeta and Piccolo's increases.

Goku might be strong in the Cell Games, but that's a side-effect of mastering the Super Saiyan. Goku body limit being 3 million sounds fair.

I agree, since the last time Goku trained with weights and gravity it was at 100G and Goku would probably weigh 80kg(not officially, but his official weight is beyond ridiculous IIRC), which multiplied by 100 gives 8 tons - the same weight he trained with in Heaven with Lord Kaio(although he used Bukujutsu and could go higher I still think it's valid, since he did afterall train in 100G with a BP of 90.000 and not 3 million).

[Piccolo Daimao]

By that logic, Trunks could've never surpassed his master (in what, the same timeslip to train in as Goku, without any extraordinary training and with nobody at all to spar with?).

Anybody can train better than Gohan.

Your hate for Gohan's getting boring now.

Btw, just playing devil's advocate, but it wasn't confirmed that Trunks had indeed surpassed Gohan. Gohan said that Trunks might even leave him in the dust in a few months, but you could easily argue that he was just saying that to give him confidence and may have been factoring in that he'd be sparring with Trunks too. And even though Bulma thought that Trunks wasn't that amazingly different than Gohan back then, she can't even sense ki. How would she know whether or not Trunks had surpassed Gohan?

Just want to re-iterate that I'm still just playing devil's advocate. I don't necessarily agree with all of this. I do think that Trunks had surpassed Gohan after those three years, even with Earth training without sparring partners. I don't know how, call it being gifted because he's a half-Saiyan or whatever.

I think that Trunks had increased somewhat from training in the future (for what, eight months), but not nearly as much as Goku and the others because they had longer time and, for some of them, sparring partners. It wasn't some ridiculous three-fold increase or anything like that though, because, at only Earth training, you're not going to make big increases. Not to mention Goku was sparring with guys much weaker than him.

[Fox666]

I agree, since the last time Goku trained with weights and gravity it was at 100G and Goku would probably weigh 80kg(not officially, but his official weight is beyond ridiculous IIRC), which multiplied by 100 gives 8 tons - the same weight he trained with in Heaven with Lord Kaio(although he used Bukujutsu and could go higher I still think it's valid, since he did afterall train in 100G with a BP of 90.000 and not 3 million).

Hmm, actually Vegeta who should have around 2 and ½ million trained with 18,000kg...

But it's interesting to think that 40,000kg was beyong Goku capacity.

[dbgtFO]

I agree, since the last time Goku trained with weights and gravity it was at 100G and Goku would probably weigh 80kg(not officially, but his official weight is beyond ridiculous IIRC), which multiplied by 100 gives 8 tons - the same weight he trained with in Heaven with Lord Kaio(although he used Bukujutsu and could go higher I still think it's valid, since he did afterall train in 100G with a BP of 90.000 and not 3 million).

Hmm, actually Vegeta who should have around 2 and ½ million trained with 18,000kg...

Yes, but Goku never trained with 100G when his BP was 3 million and that's why he could go higher than 8,000 kg in Heaven IMO.

But it's interesting to think that 40,000kg was beyong Goku capacity.

I actually do believe that after his near death powerup to 3 million he'll be able to handle about 20,000 kg just like Vegeta.

[jackjack]

Btw, just playing devil's advocate, but it wasn't confirmed that Trunks had indeed surpassed Gohan.

Nothing wrong with playing devil's advocate, but Trunks thinking he's improved enough to take the cyborgs means anything to you?

And even though Bulma thought that Trunks wasn't that amazingly different than Gohan back then, she can't even sense ki. How would she know whether or not Trunks had surpassed Gohan?

If anything, that goes to show this version of Bulma can sense ki, since she, as Trunks quotes, was right about what she knew.

The fact that they only gain a significant power increase, when they enter the RoSaT

Not sure what does that have to do with anything?

is enough for me to believe that they most certainly didn't increase much, if at all.

Well, that certainly makes no sense to me. Post-training Goku isn't sure if they will win, whereas pre-training Goku knows everyone will die without becoming stronger.