The Earthlings/Kaio-Ken Deal

[Piccolo Daimao]

I've always wondered why people thought that Kaio simply didn't teach Tenshinhan and the others the Kaio-Ken. I always thought that they just coukldn't master it like Goku (Kaio claims that he couldn't master it himself). Plus, there's no reason for Kaio not to teach them the Kaio-Ken, when he did for Goku. Kaio said that they wanted training even tougher than what Goku got, and Tenshinhan knows about the Kaio-Ken (he mentions that Goku should be able to go up to Kaio-Ken x10).

As for the Genki-Dama, Piccolo mentions that Kaio never told him about it, so perhaps they just hadn't gotten that far into the training (they were only there for six days in the living world, after all). If Kaio didn't tell Tenshinhan and co. about it after Piccolo had left, then they would've found out later, either from Kaio when Goku threw the Genki-Dama at Freeza or when Kaio tried to teach them it further in training.

But I don't think Tenshinhan and co. mastered the Kaio-Ken and Genki-Dama.

[Herms]

When fighting No.20, Piccolo does talk about how he can make his energy explode when he fights, so that the energy 20 stole from Piccolo when he was just standing around is insignificant. I wonder if maybe that was an ability he gained from training with Kaio. Like it was either some proto-Kaio-ken that was the best Piccolo could manage to learn, or just the opposite, that he actually mastered the Kaio-ken so much that it's become simply a natural part of how he fights rather than a separate technique. I also tend to think that guys like Kaioshin or Boo did something similar to the latter, where they didn't know the Kaio-ken per say but instinctively mastered its basic principles, so that formally learning the Kaio-ken wouldn't really do them any good. But that's mostly because I don't like to think that Dabra could learn the Kaio-ken and beat up Super Saiyan 3 Goku, or something like that.

[Piccolo Daimao]

When fighting No.20, Piccolo does talk about how he can make his energy explode when he fights, so that the energy 20 stole from Piccolo when he was just standing around is insignificant. I wonder if maybe that was an ability he gained from training with Kaio. Like it was either some proto-Kaio-ken that was the best Piccolo could manage to learn, or just the opposite, that he actually mastered the Kaio-ken so much that it's become simply a natural part of how he fights rather than a separate technique.

I always took Piccolo's line to just mean that he can suppress and increase his power, not that it was like some proto-Kaio-Ken. Plus, just as a note, Piccolo says "we".

[Fox666]

Piccolo talking about supressing his power is the simpliest way to interpretate it. I.e. an android would only be able to absorb 5,000 of power from Goku on Namek, while his actual level was of 90,000

I also tend to think that guys like Kaioshin or Boo did something similar to the latter, where they didn't know the Kaio-ken per say but instinctively mastered its basic principles, so that formally learning the Kaio-ken wouldn't really do them any good. But that's mostly because I don't like to think that Dabra could learn the Kaio-ken and beat up Super Saiyan 3 Goku, or something like that.

That's an interesting idea. Why can't Goku use the Kaio-ken as a Super Saiyan?

it's nice to think that after certain level of power, someone began to access the same "reserve of power" of the Kaio-ken. Think of different levels of power as layers, and someone using a Kaio-ken is pushing the power of a yet not accessible layer.

[SonGokuh]

Piccolo talking about supressing his power is the simpliest way to interpretate it. I.e. an android would only be able to absorb 5,000 of power from Goku on Namek, while his actual level was of 90,000

I also tend to think that guys like Kaioshin or Boo did something similar to the latter, where they didn't know the Kaio-ken per say but instinctively mastered its basic principles, so that formally learning the Kaio-ken wouldn't really do them any good. But that's mostly because I don't like to think that Dabra could learn the Kaio-ken and beat up Super Saiyan 3 Goku, or something like that.

That's an interesting idea. Why can't Goku use the Kaio-ken as a Super Saiyan?

it's nice to think that after certain level of power, someone began to access the same "reserve of power" of the Kaio-ken. Think of different levels of power as layers, and someone using a Kaio-ken is pushing the power of a yet not accessible layer.

A better question would be: Why he couldn't/didn't use it after training to fight Cell? I imagine before he had mastered the form, using Kaio-ken as a SSJ may have adversely affected him.

[dbgtFO]

Piccolo talking about supressing his power is the simpliest way to interpretate it. I.e. an android would only be able to absorb 5,000 of power from Goku on Namek, while his actual level was of 90,000

Which doesn't make much sense to me, since the power is still there in the body, so Gero should be able to absorb all of it.

Piccolo stating he could amplify his ki and the fact that only Kaioken is stated to be an amplification of ki only gives me one conclusion: Everyone can do Kaioken by now or at least something very similar to it...

[Michsi]

Maybe it works the same way as ki-sensing? Theoretically the power is still there yet you can only pick up on it only if the person in question raised it.

Vegeta ( when first arriving on earth) and the rest of Freeza's men didn't know how to change or surpress they're power level.

[Senzu_Bean]

Which doesn't make much sense to me, since the power is still there in the body, so Gero should be able to absorb all of it.

The Z-fighters can manipulate their battle powers. They don't simply hide or whatnot their battle power like Nappa and Raditz, they actually modified it.

Piccolo stating he could amplify his ki and the fact that only Kaioken is stated to be an amplification of ki only gives me one conclusion: Everyone can do Kaioken by now or at least something very similar to it...

That doesn't make any sense. What amplifies/modifies one's battle power isn't the technique itself but actually whether or not the subject know how to manipulate his/her/it battle power. The Kamehameha, Kikoho, Final Flash, Makankosappo, etc. have all been show to amplify ki beyond one's capabilities. The Kaioken just make it possible to amplifies it beyond every other technique show (besides maybe Shin Kikoho).

[Dabooyaka]

I dont buy the whole kaioken with no aura, hence i dont think they had it, they didnt have the aura after all.

[Terra-jin]

When fighting No.20, Piccolo does talk about how he can make his energy explode when he fights, so that the energy 20 stole from Piccolo when he was just standing around is insignificant. I wonder if maybe that was an ability he gained from training with Kaio. Like it was either some proto-Kaio-ken that was the best Piccolo could manage to learn, or just the opposite, that he actually mastered the Kaio-ken so much that it's become simply a natural part of how he fights rather than a separate technique.

Raditz noted and was suprised that Goku and Piccolo could concentrate their energy into a single spot. I think that has to do with Piccolo's comment to Android 20. The Earth's fighters can hide, sense and amplify ki while the Andriods and (most of) Freeza's men were completely oblivious to these abilities. I like to explain this as follows:

Ki has a rough amount and an area it's spread across - a "ki-field". The default field over which a person's ki is spread out is the size of an aura. This means that the current, measured strength of your ki is actually 'ki density'.
If you concentrate all the "ki-particles" you have and push them together in a single spot, you can imagine that the density, and hence your measured strength, is increased many times.
Conversely, if you spread out your ki-field over a huge area, you make your ki so sparse that it can't be easily sensed anymore. The resulting low density is interpreted as a low energy signature.

Freeza and co's scouters only registered ki density and their men didn't know you can adjust the size of your aura. Because of this, they thought that whatever a person's measured battle power was their maximum level. The Andriods apparently reasoned in the same way. When the measured battle power suddenly changed, they didn't know what to make of it - "Hey... they can change their powerlevel without transforming... that's rare!"
Of course, our heroes were just concentrating their ki. With a standard-sized ki-field, i.e. normal ki-density, they could only put out so much battle power, whereas when they focused it into progressively smaller fields, they can create stronger attacks than you'd expect. And when their powerlevels suddenly disappeared, our protagonists would quickly spread out their ki to achieve a low-enough density to not be sensed/scoutered.

So: Total amount of ki-particles / size of ki-field = actual strength. Changing your total amount of ki requires lengthy training, but changing your field of ki can be done instantly. Your maximum strength is not just using all of your ki, but focussing it as compactly as possible.

[Fox666]

Which doesn't make much sense to me, since the power is still there in the body, so Gero should be able to absorb all of it.

Well, think of it like this: an atom nucleus has a lot of energy on it, but you can't access it unless you have a nuclear power plant

[dbgtFO]

Piccolo stating he could amplify his ki and the fact that only Kaioken is stated to be an amplification of ki only gives me one conclusion: Everyone can do Kaioken by now or at least something very similar to it...

That doesn't make any sense.

Kaio-ken is the only technique stated to amplify ki, Piccolo says they can all amplify ki - my conclusion: Piccolo(and perhaps everyone else) have Kaio-ken or something similar to it.

What amplifies/modifies one's battle power isn't the technique itself but actually whether or not the subject know how to manipulate his/her/it battle power. The Kamehameha, Kikoho, Final Flash, Makankosappo, etc. have all been show to amplify ki beyond one's capabilities. The Kaioken just make it possible to amplifies it beyond every other technique show (besides maybe Shin Kikoho).

I don't buy it.
If there is a consistent multiplier for Kamehameha, then it'd be 924/416 which is = 2,2, which is beyond the basic Kaio-ken.

And if that multipler exists then Goku could just use that in combination with KKx2 to combat Vegeta's 18.000, since 16.000*2,2 = 35.200. It would have been a far better idea, than purposefully wearing his body down with KK*3, which only is at 24.000.

And Vegeta couldn't control his FP at that point anyways, so he'd always be at 18.000 - Gallick Gun or no Gallick Gun.

To get back to Herms' statement: If Piccolo meant suppressing and unsuppressing power, he should have said that instead of specifically saying "amplify."

[Piccolo Daimao]

To get back to Herms' statement: If Piccolo meant suppressing and unsuppressing power, he should have said that instead of specifically saying "amplify."

Amplify means make larger or more intense, which is basically just the same thing as suppressing and unsuppressing your power. I never got the idea that Piccolo was using some type of Kaio-Ken ability against Dr. Gero. I just took it as it is: Piccolo was suppressed when Dr. Gero took his power, meaning the energy was worthless and Piccolo can beat his ass around like a ragdoll.

[Senzu_Bean]

Kaio-ken is the only technique stated to amplify ki, Piccolo says they can all amplify ki - my conclusion: Piccolo(and perhaps everyone else) have Kaio-ken or something similar to it.

Like I said previously that doesn't make sense and is beyond ridiculous.

If there is a consistent multiplier for Kamehameha, then it'd be 924/416 which is = 2,2, which is beyond the basic Kaio-ken.

Why are you bringing a consistent Kamehameha multiplier when I clearly said the opposite?

To get back to Herms' statement: If Piccolo meant suppressing and unsuppressing power, he should have said that instead of specifically saying "amplify."

Why?! He is amplifying his ki.

[dbgtFO]

To get back to Herms' statement: If Piccolo meant suppressing and unsuppressing power, he should have said that instead of specifically saying "amplify."

Amplify means make larger or more intense, which is basically just the same thing as suppressing and unsuppressing your power. I never got the idea that Piccolo was using some type of Kaio-Ken ability against Dr. Gero. I just took it as it is: Piccolo was suppressed when Dr. Gero took his power, meaning the energy was worthless and Piccolo can beat his ass around like a ragdoll.

Obviosly I don't see it that way, since I think it'd be beyond stupid to make a device, that cannot absorb power, that's technically right there in the body, but hidden from scouters.

Dr. Gero having studied the fight against Vegeta should know full well, that Goku and Co. can suppres their power, since he states, that he knows all his techniques.

Kaio-ken is the only technique stated to amplify ki, Piccolo says they can all amplify ki - my conclusion: Piccolo(and perhaps everyone else) have Kaio-ken or something similar to it.

Like I said previously that doesn't make sense and is beyond ridiculous.

You got your opinion, I got mine.

If there is a consistent multiplier for Kamehameha, then it'd be 924/416 which is = 2,2, which is beyond the basic Kaio-ken.

Why are you bringing a consistent Kamehameha multiplier when I clearly said the opposite?

You did not clearly say the opposite.

[Senzu_Bean]

... that's technically right there in the body, but hidden from scouters.

It isn't! The Z-fighters can alter their battle powers. That means increase or decrease them.

[dbgtFO]

... that's technically right there in the body, but hidden from scouters.

It isn't! The Z-fighters can alter their battle powers. That means increase or decrease them.

They can change their battle powers, so what? That doesn't mean their ki disappears from their body. It's all about what the scouter can pick up and what it cannot.

[Senzu_Bean]

... that's technically right there in the body, but hidden from scouters.

It isn't! The Z-fighters can alter their battle powers. That means increase or decrease them.

They can change their battle powers, so what? That doesn't mean their ki disappears from their body. It's all about what the scouter can pick up and what it cannot.

I really don't know why you're bringing scouters to something that happens 3 years after the last seen scouter.

And yes, if you want to put on those words they actually can make their ki disappear from their body. After all that is what manipulating battle powers mean. Otherwise Goku or Tenshinhan would have died many years ago due their bodies not been capable to handle huge powers.

[dbgtFO]

They can change their battle powers, so what? That doesn't mean their ki disappears from their body. It's all about what the scouter can pick up and what it cannot.

I really don't know why you're bringing scouters to something that happens 3 years after the last seen scouter.

Because controlling your BP is controlling the numbers on the scouter.

And yes, if you want to put on those words they actually can make their ki disappear from their body. After all that is what manipulating battle powers mean.

Yep, don't buy one bit of it.

Otherwise Goku or Tenshinhan would have died many years ago due their bodies not been capable to handle huge powers.

What?