Plot Holes?

[roidrage]

Huh, it tooks early for the dragon be summoned because they only used 2 wishes, and he could grant 3. That makes complete sense for me, it should only take 1/3 of the time for him to show up again. It's a bit far-fetched say that the panties wishes took less power and compare to this.

I am not looking at a translated version of the manga here, so I could be wrong since I can't read the text. But after a quick checking, the Red Ribbon can be divided in several minor parts, and Goku travelled several different times. First when Goku flight in that robot to the snowy montains, but that doesn't seems to have taken much time. Later I see some two more important scenes, when Goku reaches Bulma's home city, and later when he left it, in both cases there are narrator boxes and stuff. Later on Goku sets off back to the Red Ribbon HQ, and there is another scene which Goku travels somewhere else and a narrator box appear, when they set off before the Uranai Baba arc. Was it mentioned how many time it passed overall? Man, it takes a lot of volumes at least since the Dragon Balls were used a last time

I think you're mistaken. Up until he was modified by Dende, Shenlong could only grant one wish at a time.

[roidrage]

Huh, it tooks early for the dragon be summoned because they only used 2 wishes, and he could grant 3. That makes complete sense for me, it should only take 1/3 of the time for him to show up again. It's a bit far-fetched say that the panties wishes took less power and compare to this.

I am not looking at a translated version of the manga here, so I could be wrong since I can't read the text. But after a quick checking, the Red Ribbon can be divided in several minor parts, and Goku travelled several different times. First when Goku flight in that robot to the snowy montains, but that doesn't seems to have taken much time. Later I see some two more important scenes, when Goku reaches Bulma's home city, and later when he left it, in both cases there are narrator boxes and stuff. Later on Goku sets off back to the Red Ribbon HQ, and there is another scene which Goku travels somewhere else and a narrator box appear, when they set off before the Uranai Baba arc. Was it mentioned how many time it passed overall? Man, it takes a lot of volumes at least since the Dragon Balls were used a last time

Sorry if this is a double post; Shenlong could only grant one wish at a time up until Dende modified him.

[beast mode]

Vegeta is equal with a Cell Junior in Super Saiyan (not Grade 2).

#1 He could kill it by turning Super Saiyan Grade 2 but just chooses to not to because he has brain damage from the lack of oxygen in The RoSaT.
#2 or he could have became a 'Full-Power Super Saiyan,' making the original Super Saiyan transformation his best fighting state.

The latter is more likely since he does realize that Goku's funky new training style is a good one.

Problem is...

Vegeta = Goku (before any RoSaT training)
Goku (RoSaT +1 year (some spent getting used to Super Saiyan), 9 days of getting used to Super Saiyan)
Vegeta (RoSaT +2 years (one full year spent on just getting stronger and the other getting used to Super Saiyan, 8 days of getting used to Super Saiyan)
Goku > Vegeta (Cell Games, big enough difference to make Vegeta shocked and surprised.)

I don't know, does Vegeta's inability to fully relax make his 'Full-Power' bonus a lot less even though he spent a lot more time working on it than Goku did? He does not appear in Super Saiyan all the time during these events, so maybe it's still sorta a drain, somewhere in between Goku/Gohan and his old Super Saiyan form?

[Deity]

Trunks mentioning no.19 and no.20 instead of no.17 and no.18.

I've heard this before, but I never realized he says this. When does he say it ?

[Herms]

I've heard this before, but I never realized he says this. When does he say it ?

It's in chapter 335 when he tells Goku about the androids. However, in the anime the line is changed so that he doesn't mention any specific numbers. I've also heard that the Chinese editions of the Kanzenban likewise fix the line. As far as I know no Japanese Kanzenban editions fix it.

[dbgtFO]

I don't know, does Vegeta's inability to fully relax make his 'Full-Power' bonus a lot less even though he spent a lot more time working on it than Goku did?

Vegeta is simply incapable of keeping up with Goku.

I've heard this before, but I never realized he says this. When does he say it ?

It's in chapter 335 when he tells Goku about the androids. However, in the anime the line is changed so that he doesn't mention any specific numbers. I've also heard that the Chinese editions of the Kanzenban likewise fix the line. As far as I know no Japanese Kanzenban editions fix it.

Didn't the chinese one make it worse, by having Trunks actually stating #17 & #18?
Piccolo for one would realize something was wrong, when #19 & #20 revealed their names...

The whole thing about the plothole is, that Toriyama shouldn't have made the returning Trunks say the names of the androids of his time. If he didn't know their names and really thought they were called #19 & #20, then there'd be no plothole.

The anime did the right thing.

[beast mode]

I don't know, does Vegeta's inability to fully relax make his 'Full-Power' bonus a lot less even though he spent a lot more time working on it than Goku did?

Vegeta is simply incapable of keeping up with Goku.

Just because Goku is special? Goku shouldn't be anywhere near Vegeta's strength, it's all his crazy training in the afterlife/100x gravity/etc. that's allowed him to surpass Vegeta time and time again. Not some magical ability to get more out of less training than Vegeta.

[Michsi]

Just because Goku is special? Goku shouldn't be anywhere near Vegeta's strength, it's all his crazy training in the afterlife/100x gravity/etc. that's allowed him to surpass Vegeta time and time again. Not some magical ability to get more out of less training than Vegeta.

He IS special! That's the whole point of his character, that he's a martial art genius.

Remember, during the Cell saga he and Vegeta both went in the RoSaT and he came out a lot stronger. Worse, Vegeta went in at least on more time and he was still below Goku.

[beast mode]

Just because Goku is special? Goku shouldn't be anywhere near Vegeta's strength, it's all his crazy training in the afterlife/100x gravity/etc. that's allowed him to surpass Vegeta time and time again. Not some magical ability to get more out of less training than Vegeta.

He IS special! That's the whole point of his character, that he's a martial art genius.

Remember, during the Cell saga he and Vegeta both went in the RoSaT and he came out a lot stronger. Worse, Vegeta went in at least on more time and he was still below Goku.

Vegeta is equal with a Cell Junior in Super Saiyan (not Grade 2).

#1 He could kill it by turning Super Saiyan Grade 2 but just chooses to not to because he has brain damage from the lack of oxygen in The RoSaT.
#2 or he could have became a 'Full-Power Super Saiyan,' making the original Super Saiyan transformation his best fighting state.

The latter is more likely since he does realize that Goku's funky new training style is a good one.

Problem is...

Vegeta = Goku (before any RoSaT training)
Goku (RoSaT +1 year (some spent getting used to Super Saiyan), 9 days of getting used to Super Saiyan)
Vegeta (RoSaT +2 years (one full year spent on just getting stronger and the other getting used to Super Saiyan, 8 days of getting used to Super Saiyan)
Goku > Vegeta (Cell Games, big enough difference to make Vegeta shocked and surprised.)

I don't know, does Vegeta's inability to fully relax make his 'Full-Power' bonus a lot less even though he spent a lot more time working on it than Goku did? He does not appear in Super Saiyan all the time during these events, so maybe it's still sorta a drain, somewhere in between Goku/Gohan and his old Super Saiyan form?

[Michsi]

In was referring strictly to you post about Goku's ability to surpass Vegeta time and time again because of crazy training in the afterlife/100x gravity/etc becaus you made it seem as if he is always given an unfair advantage.

The whole RoSat Deal is proof that he deserves his place above Vegeta.


But I admit ...

I don't know, does Vegeta's inability to fully relax make his 'Full-Power' bonus a lot less even though he spent a lot more time working on it than Goku did? He does not appear in Super Saiyan all the time during these events, so maybe it's still sorta a drain, somewhere in between Goku/Gohan and his old Super Saiyan form?

I don't really understand what it is that you are trying to say here with his inability to "fully relax"

[beast mode]

In was referring strictly to you post about Goku's ability to surpass Vegeta time and time again because of crazy training in the afterlife/100x gravity/etc becaus you made it seem as if he is always given an unfair advantage.

The whole RoSat Deal is proof that he deserves his place above Vegeta.

No, it's the exception to the rule that Vegeta should be stronger than Goku, but Goku has worked harder than Vegeta. The lesson of the Saiyan arc is that even if you are born less talented than others, through hard work you can become even better than they are. Goku was supposed to be considered useless in comparison to Raditz, yet he overtook Raditz and eventually Vegeta, a pompous Saiyan Prince who was born into the strongest Saiyan bloodline.

But I admit ...

I don't know, does Vegeta's inability to fully relax make his 'Full-Power' bonus a lot less even though he spent a lot more time working on it than Goku did? He does not appear in Super Saiyan all the time during these events, so maybe it's still sorta a drain, somewhere in between Goku/Gohan and his old Super Saiyan form?

I don't really understand what it is that you are trying to say here with his inability to "fully relax"

Goku has a happy-go-lucky type of personality and is totally convinced that Gohan will save them from Cell if things get really bad. Vegeta just found out that Goku realized a better way of training than himself, doesn't have any friends, and is angry/depressed if someone is stronger than him (Cell just whooped his ass.)

[Michsi]

No, it's the exception to the rule that Vegeta should be stronger than Goku, but Goku has worked harder than Vegeta. The lesson of the Saiyan arc is that even if you are born less talented than others, through hard work you can become even better than they are. Goku was supposed to be considered useless in comparison to Raditz, yet he overtook Raditz and eventually Vegeta, a pompous Saiyan Prince who was born into the strongest Saiyan bloodline.

I disagree , it's not just hard work that sets him apart from the rest, because, let's face it, Vegeta works hard. He is also talented, which is what I meant by martial art genious. The simple fact that he came up with turning the SSJ state into his normal state is evidence of that, Vegeta himself admits that is was a brilliant idea.

Somebody once said it best: it's not just about training hard, it's about training smart.
When it comes to finding ways to improve your skill and strength, Goku is superior.

Goku has a happy-go-lucky type of personality and is totally convinced that Gohan will save them from Cell if things get really bad. Vegeta just found out that Goku realized a better way of training than himself, doesn't have any friends, and is angry/depressed if someone is stronger than him (Cell just whooped his ass.)

The way I see it, Vegeta's ambition is his greatest asset. If anything, getting his ass whopped gets him more fired up.

It's in the actual fights that his personality and temperment turns into one of his greatest weaknesses. He is overconfident when he believes himself superior but quickly looses his head when things turn against him.

Goku on the other head almost always maintains a level-head no matter what the circumstance

[beast mode]

No, it's the exception to the rule that Vegeta should be stronger than Goku, but Goku has worked harder than Vegeta. The lesson of the Saiyan arc is that even if you are born less talented than others, through hard work you can become even better than they are. Goku was supposed to be considered useless in comparison to Raditz, yet he overtook Raditz and eventually Vegeta, a pompous Saiyan Prince who was born into the strongest Saiyan bloodline.

I disagree , it's not just hard work that sets him apart from the rest, because, let's face it, Vegeta works hard. He is also talented, which is what I meant by martial art genious. The simple fact that he came up with turning the SSJ state into his normal state is evidence of that, Vegeta himself admits that is was a brilliant idea.

Somebody once said it best: it's not just about training hard, it's about training smart.
When it comes to finding ways to improve your skill and strength, Goku is superior.

It's by working hard (and getting lucky) that Goku has surpassed Vegeta throughout the Saiyan-Freeza arcs. Coming up with the idea of Full-Power Super Saiyan doesn't make his training more effective than Vegeta's, it just hurts Vegeta's pride. It's still a plot hole.

Goku has a happy-go-lucky type of personality and is totally convinced that Gohan will save them from Cell if things get really bad. Vegeta just found out that Goku realized a better way of training than himself, doesn't have any friends, and is angry/depressed if someone is stronger than him (Cell just whooped his ass.)

The way I see it, Vegeta's ambition is his greatest asset. If anything, getting his ass whopped gets him more fired up.

It's in the actual fights that his personality and temperment turns into one of his greatest weaknesses. He is overconfident when he believes himself superior but quickly looses his head when things turn against him.

Goku on the other head almost always maintains a level-head no matter what the circumstance

Getting fired up is not going to help him become a Full-Power Super Saiyan. I don't know, I guess you are in agreement with me here. At least in regard to Son Goku possessing an advantage in becoming a Full-Power Super Saiyan.

[Michsi]

It's by working hard (and getting lucky) that Goku has surpassed Vegeta throughout the Saiyan-Freeza arcs. Coming up with the idea of Full-Power Super Saiyan doesn't make his training more effective than Vegeta's, it just hurts Vegeta's pride. It's still a plot hole.

How does it not make it more effective when it ends up making Goku that much stronger than Vegeta. That ALONE is proof.
He came up with an idea and it worked. And fantastically so.
Toriyama went showed how and WHY Goku was better. The readers knows what it is that made his training more efficient. The author could've skipped the whole "SSJ= normal state" idea and simply go with "yeah Goku is just that awesome" and make him stronger just because. He did it before. Like in the Freeza Saga.

It's not a plot hole if it's explained.

But again, it'c a combination of working hard and working smart. The way I see it, Vegeta only works hard.

And what do you mean by " it just hurts Vegeta's pride". That was a result of Goku proving to be that much better, but I don't see how that makes Goku's training any les efficient.

Getting fired up is not going to help him become a Full-Power Super Saiyan. I don't know, I guess you are in agreement with me here. At least in regard to Son Goku possessing an advantage in becoming a Full-Power Super Saiyan.

I was saying that there is no obvious factor such as the ones you listed above, like getting depressed or not being able to relax, that could explain (or could be used as an excuse for ) Vegeta's inability to catch up to Goku.

[beast mode]

It's by working hard (and getting lucky) that Goku has surpassed Vegeta throughout the Saiyan-Freeza arcs. Coming up with the idea of Full-Power Super Saiyan doesn't make his training more effective than Vegeta's, it just hurts Vegeta's pride. It's still a plot hole.

How does it not make it more effective because it doesn't make any sense when it ends up making Goku that much stronger than Vegeta. plot hole or Vegeta couldn't become a true Full-Power Super Saiyan due to differences in their psyche That ALONE is proof.
He came up with an idea and it worked. And fantastically so.
Toriyama went showed how and WHY Goku was better at coming up with training techniques, not at gaining more strength from them. The readers knows what it is that made his training more efficient. I don't The author could've skipped the whole "SSJ= normal state" idea and simply go with "yeah Goku is just that awesome" and make him stronger just because he didn't. He did it before. Like in the Freeza Saga. Not because "yeah Goku is just that awesome." It was that ballin' spaceship. In the situation we are talking about, there is no reason

It's not a plot hole if it's explained it's not explained.

But again, it'c a combination of working hard and working smart. The way I see it, Vegeta only works hard.

And what do you mean by " it just hurts Vegeta's pride" if Goku can come up with a better idea for training than he can, it is going to upset him, not make Goku's training more effective. That was a result of Goku proving to be that much better, in terms of 'brilliance,' not strength. You've also just given the exact reason for what you were just confused about in your previous sentence but I don't see how that makes Goku's training any les efficient. I've never said that Goku is any less efficient at training.

[dbgtFO]

I'm sorry, but I fail to see, how it could possibly be a plothole(!) that Vegeta even with all that training still ends up weaker than Goku.

Vegeta is simply not as gifted as Goku, that's what he admits in the Buu Arc and in the Cell Arc after realizing Goku's Full Power, he admits that Goku is a genius:

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P10.1
Vegeta: “It drives me crazy, but I’ll admit it…Despite doing all that special training, I didn’t surpass Kakarot…Th-that bastard’s a genius…But Cell is 1 or 2 steps above even Kakarot…”

[Michsi]

Ok, I just don't see what you are seeing or I'm not explaining it well enough


because it doesn't make any sense
How does is not make any sense?

It's explained: by making the SSJ form, their normal/default status, any improvement they could have made is upped significantly.

Example: It's like starting up with a powerleven of 100 instead of 1.
If one year of training equals 50 points in power level then:

default status 1 + 1 year of training = power level of 51
default status 100 + 1 year of training = power level of 150

That's how I see it.

plot hole or Vegeta couldn't become a true Full-Power Super Saiyan due to differences in their psyche

What psyche? What mental/emotional problems could he have had that stood in the way of him getting to Goku's level. I think it would've been made clear if THIS is what was hindering him.
At most it's just fan speculation

As I said, the mental state we usually see Vegetas in when training is focus on a specific goal. When talking about his inability to relax, are you saying it's because he is too serious about his training or to wired up?
If that's the case, than it's just a matter of personality or Vegeta just being Vegeta. But as I said before, this excesive ambition isn't seen as a bad thing but as an attribute, it does help him get stronger.


at coming up with training techniques, not at gaining more strength from them
What's the point of comming up with a new training technique it doesn't help you gain more strength with it? That was the whole idea. Reach new heights with efficient training.
I'm no sure I understand this statement?

if Goku can come up with a better idea for training than he can, it is going to upset him, not make Goku's training more effective
Wait what? I don't see the logis here. Yes, Goku came up with a better method of training, yes Vegeta was probaly upset that been surpassed again ....
BUT it's the end result that determines how efficient ones training was and the result is pretty obviouse. Goku>Vegeta.

in terms of 'brilliance,' not strength

brilliance = finding ways to make you training mroe efficient= gaing more strength.
It's really quite simple if you ask me.


Absolutely no plot hole I can see.

EDIT: dbgtFO said it best. Short and to the point

[beast mode]

Ok, I just don't see what you are seeing or I'm not explaining it well enough


because it doesn't make any sense
How does is not make any sense?

It's explained: by making the SSJ form, their normal/default status, any improvement they could have made is upped significantly.

Example: It's like starting up with a powerleven of 100 instead of 1.
If one year of training equals 50 points in power level then:

default status 1 + 1 year of training = power level of 51
default status 100 + 1 year of training = power level of 150

That's how I see it.

plot hole or Vegeta couldn't become a true Full-Power Super Saiyan due to differences in their psyche

What psyche? What mental/emotional problems could he have had that stood in the way of him getting to Goku's level. I think it would've been made clear if THIS is what was hindering him.
At most it's just fan speculation

As I said, the mental state we usually see Vegetas in when training is focus on a specific goal. When talking about his inability to relax, are you saying it's because he is too serious about his training or to wired up?
If that's the case, than it's just a matter of personality or Vegeta just being Vegeta. But as I said before, this excesive ambition isn't seen as a bad thing but as an attribute, it does help him get stronger.


at coming up with training techniques, not at gaining more strength from them
What's the point of comming up with a new training technique it doesn't help you gain more strength with it? That was the whole idea. Reach new heights with efficient training.
I'm no sure I understand this statement?

if Goku can come up with a better idea for training than he can, it is going to upset him, not make Goku's training more effective
Wait what? I don't see the logis here. Yes, Goku came up with a better method of training, yes Vegeta was probaly upset that been surpassed again ....
BUT it's the end result that determines how efficient ones training was and the result is pretty obviouse. Goku>Vegeta.

in terms of 'brilliance,' not strength

brilliance = finding ways to make you training mroe efficient= gaing more strength.
It's really quite simple if you ask me.


Absolutely no plot hole I can see.

EDIT: dbgtFO said it best. Short and to the point

AAAAAAAAAGHHHHGHGHGH!!! Sorry I can't explain myself better, I'm trying.

There is no reason to believe that given the exact same training, Goku and Vegeta will gain different benefits. Vegeta does not turn into a Super Saiyan Grade 2 against one of the Cell Juniors. If he didn't become a Full-Power Super Saiyan, turning Super Saiyan Grade 2 would allow him to defeat the previously mentioned Cell Junior. So we can assume that he is at least partially a Full-Power Super Saiyan, with his normal Super Saiyan state overtaking Grade 2. However, he is still outclassed by Goku. Either it's a plot hole and Goku is stronger than Vegeta for no reason, or Vegeta must not be as good at calming down and defeating that restless feeling in his full Super Saiyan state.

[Michsi]

There is no reason to believe that given the exact same training, Goku and Vegeta will gain different benefits. Vegeta does not turn into a Super Saiyan Grade 2 against one of the Cell Juniors. If he didn't become a Full-Power Super Saiyan, turning Super Saiyan Grade 2 would allow him to defeat the previously mentioned Cell Junior. So we can assume that he is at least partially a Full-Power Super Saiyan, with his normal Super Saiyan state overtaking Grade 2. However, he is still outclassed by Goku. Either it's a plot hole and Goku is stronger than Vegeta for no reason, or Vegeta must not be as good at calming down and defeating that restless feeling in his full Super Saiyan state.

OK , maybe we shoud get the problem of terminology out of the way first, because maybe this is where the communication problems lie.

What do you mean by Full Power Saiyan ( what goku when fighting Cell?)and what do you mean by Super Saiyan Grade 2 ( what Trunks becomes when fighting cell or Gohan's SSJ 2?)

[beast mode]

By Super Saiyan Grade 2, I was referring to Vegeta's "Super Vegeta" transformation.

Daizex Transformations Guide: Full-Power Super Saiyan:
Debatably, this is not even an actual transformation; it's simply an advancement of an earlier form. However, as the user takes his previous form and does something "new" with it, we'll catalogue it for completeness' sake.

In the Room of Spirit and Time, Goku comes to the conclusion that the extra two stages of regular Super Saiyan (see "Ultra SSJ," above) indeed give strength... but kill speed and consume too much energy. Instead of relying on them, Goku decides they must, "... work on getting rid of that instability... that restless feeling." Regular ol' Super Saiyan must become their "norm."

The next time we see Goku and Gohan is when they emerge from the Room of Spirit and Time... as Super Saiyans. Vegeta notes, "They look like Super Saiyans... but I don't feel the energy...! It's like... it's their natural state...".

Next chapter, the characters converse among themselves regarding this "new" Goku and Gohan. Tenshinhan is astonished, since it is supposed to take a great deal of effort just to stay in SSJ, yet they are so relaxed. Ultimately, Vegeta retorts that they have indeed made SSJ their "best combat state"; when used to it, they'll "... minimize the strain on their bodies during battle!"

Amazingly, this is really all that is so much as hinted at over the remaining course of the manga and anime. We do see Goku and Gohan as SSJ seemingly much more "relaxed" or "natural," so the training must have indeed paid off.

The anime provides some extra exposition, with Goku and Gohan during those finals few days before the Cell Game parading around, relaxing, all while Super Saiyan.