Goku's true boost in strength when becoming Super Saiyan?

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I think it was #19 that said that, actually. But the line was exclusive to the anime.

[hleV]

I think it's pointless to continue the discussion if thread's author is basing his evidence on a non-canon source (anime).
Also the point of Akira Toriyama feeling like SSJ was supposed to be a 10x power multiplier changes absolutely nothing as he accepted that it happens to be 50x.

[dbgtFO]

Also, I thought that interview with Akira Toriyama where he says in his opinion it was more like ten times, that fifty times is a bit silly, is indeed a source that has something to mention on the matter.

Seriously bro, are you not getting, what has been explained to you several times in this thread?
Toriyama doesn't like it, but that doesn't mean that SSJ isn't 50 times stronger than normal form.
If it did, the SEG entry in the very same book would be pointless, if the freaking Author says it works differently.

[Herms]

Not to mention Toriyama says he drew it with the sense that it was ten times greater than what Goku's strength had been "up until then", and Goku had been using the Kaio-ken up until then, so...My guess is Toriyama got confused and thought that the "x50" thing referred to Goku being 50 times stronger than when he was using Kaio-ken x10/20, which would be pretty out there.

[beast mode]

I think it's pointless to continue the discussion if thread's author is basing his evidence on a non-canon source (anime).
Also the point of Akira Toriyama feeling like SSJ was supposed to be a 10x power multiplier changes absolutely nothing as he accepted that it happens to be 50x.

Wait wait wait, one tiny piece of my info is probably anime-only (No. 20 or 19's quote on how Super Saiyan is different than Kaio-ken.) How could that possibly be basing (supposedly a substantial amount of) my evidence on a non-canon source that invalidates all of it?

Also, I thought that interview with Akira Toriyama where he says in his opinion it was more like ten times, that fifty times is a bit silly, is indeed a source that has something to mention on the matter.

Seriously bro, are you not getting, what has been explained to you several times in this thread?
Toriyama doesn't like it, but that doesn't mean that SSJ isn't 50 times stronger than normal form.
If it did, the SEG entry in the very same book would be pointless, if the freaking Author says it works differently.

Aaaagghhhh!!! I wasn't saying that I think Super Saiyan is a ten times multiplication. I don't think it's a multiplication at all. So if Goku became 10 times more powerful, once, that obviously doesn't work. I was just showing that there is at least one source that says it's not a set-in-stone fifty times multiplication that works like Kaio-ken as stated in guide books (from a fairly important source, too.) It does not mean that's what I think. I'm of the opinion that the only truly important sources are the original Dragon Ball comics themselves.

[Fox666]

Also, I thought that interview with Akira Toriyama where he says in his opinion it was more like ten times, that fifty times is a bit silly, is indeed a source that has something to mention on the matter.

Again, Toriyama never mentioned it was a 10 times multiplier. He mentions his feelings as an author goes for something closer to 10 times.

In the interview, Toriyama clearly mentions that it was estabilished at the time to increase the power by 50 times. And this is what happen in the Dragon Ball universe, not as he feels as an author.

Is there any evidence that it functions the same way?

Is there any evidence it works in other way? It's the simpliest way to think. Oozaru transformation works like that. Kaio-ken works like that. So Toriyama has the habit is doing it like that.

Why should we assume that suddenly Toriyama started to use crazy exponential mathematical formulas? We should assume he keep the same. And the multipliers given by the databooks works fine.

Besides, Toriyama work with battle powers was fine until the Freeza saga. So since the Kaio-ken x20 thing suggests that the Super Saiyan is something like a x50 multiplier. In further sagas Toriyama give up on the numerical representation of powers (noticeable because of the loss in quality in power consistency), and because of that they hold less weight than the Freeza saga.

[beast mode]

Is there any evidence that it functions the same way?

Is there any evidence it works in other way? It's the simpliest way to think. Oozaru transformation works like that. Kaio-ken works like that. So Toriyama has the habit is doing it like that.

Why should we assume that suddenly Toriyama started to use crazy exponential mathematical formulas? We should assume he keep the same. And the multipliers given by the databooks works fine.

Besides, Toriyama work with battle powers was fine until the Freeza saga. So since the Kaio-ken x20 thing suggests that the Super Saiyan is something like a x50 multiplier. In further sagas Toriyama give up on the numerical representation of powers (noticeable because of the loss in quality in power consistency), and because of that they hold less weight than the Freeza saga.

Dabra sensing that Gohan (not in Super Saiyan) being stronger than Piccolo is evidence it doesn't create strength like the Oozaru transformation or Kaio-ken. Vegeta's base strength not getting any higher at a point, unless you think the multiplier becomes greater with training. There's also Gohan powering up as if he was going into Super Saiyan form that then releases hidden power within him.

Here's my current theory on how Super Saiyan works:

Saiyan reaches a BP of 3,000,000. -> Saiyan has an extreme emotional outburst. -> Saiyan becomes 50 times stronger with a BP of 150,000,000

Being in the 'normal' Saiyan state reduces his or her strength to 3,000,000 BP, the maximum amount of Ki they can use in that form. For a newly transformed Super Saiyan their BP shouldn't be much higher than 150,000,000, by training they can up the amount of Ki they have when they're in the Super Saiyan state. They still have that Ki with them when normal but it's not usable unless they transform.

At some point, regular training does not improve the Super Saiyan's strength (see: Vegeta's BP when fighting No. 19 and 18.) At this point they have two different options of 'surpassing' Super Saiyan: 1. Become a Super Saiyan Stage 2 or 2. Maintain Super Saiyan as long as possible to maximize combat efficiency. Goku's 'Full-Power Super Saiyan' transformation is the absolute maximum that Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan Stage 2 can become.

Reaching Super Saiyan 2 is the same as Super Saiyan 1. You need reach the absolute limit on your previous form. Only a Human/Saiyan hybrid can achieve this form naturally. Goku became Super Saiyan 2 in the afterlife with his greater 'dead' self while Vegeta used a cheat code. Super Saiyan 3 also the same. Goku became a Full-Power Super Saiyan 2 in the afterlife and Vegeta was equal since he was boosted to Super Saiyan 2 unnaturally, right through to Full-Power Super Saiyan 2.

[Kaboom]

Vegeta did not gain Super Saiyan 2 just from Bobbidi's spell. He gained it through training. This is implied in the manga and confirmed through several other sources.

[beast mode]

Vegeta did not gain Super Saiyan 2 just from Bobbidi's spell. He gained it through training. This is implied in the manga and confirmed through several other sources.

OK, he was a Full-Power Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, the spell made him Full-Power Super Saiyan 2. How's that?

What chapter does he imply this in anyway?

[Fox666]

When Babidi possessed Vegeta, he only turned Super Saiyan. He turns Super Saiyan 2 later, at his own will. This scene alone suggests he learned it from training.

OK, he was a Full-Power Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, the spell made him Full-Power Super Saiyan 2. How's that?

I don't know about "full-power Super Saiyan 2".

Here's my current theory on how Super Saiyan works:.

Again, Toriyama don't work like that. It's not so uncommon for fans assume that Toriyama tought of Super Saiyan transformation as something like this:



But in fact he never confirmedly used any complicated formula for anything.

At best you could say Toriyama ignored any numerical basis in the Boo saga...

Of course there still exist an official record for the Super Saiyan 2 and 3 multiplier (2x and 4x respectively). So Toriyama still used some numerical basis, even if he was not that consistent through the Boo saga (he wasn't perfect during the Namek saga either)

[Kaboom]

OK, he was a Full-Power Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, the spell made him Full-Power Super Saiyan 2. How's that?

There's no such thing as "full-power Super Saiyan 2." Not in the same sense as the fully-controlled version of SSj1, at least. There's just some Super Saiyan 2s who are stronger than other Super Saiyan 2s.

What chapter does he imply this in anyway?

The multiple times he says he's a match for or stronger than Gohan.

[beast mode]

OK, he was a Full-Power Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, the spell made him Full-Power Super Saiyan 2. How's that?

There's no such thing as "full-power Super Saiyan 2." Not in the same sense as the fully-controlled version of SSj1, at least. There's just some Super Saiyan 2s who are stronger than other Super Saiyan 2s.

What chapter does he imply this in anyway?

The multiple times he says he's a match for or stronger than Gohan.

He also says Gohan's weaker. If Full-Power Super Saiyan is the absolute limit for Goku and he's stronger than Gohan in the Buu arc, then that means Gohan's not as strong as he used to be. Vegeta also still had a distance to catch up to between where he was and Goku. So Vegeta can be stronger than Gohan without being Super Saiyan 2.

I figure if Gohan and Goku were the only people to turn into Super Saiyan 2 without magic then you probably have to be a Full-Power Super Saiyan. So if Goku's a Super Saiyan 3 then his Super Saiyan 2 transformation must be something like a 'Full-Power Super Saiyan' type of Super Saiyan 2.

When Babidi possessed Vegeta, he only turned Super Saiyan. He turns Super Saiyan 2 later, at his own will. This scene alone suggests he learned it from training.

OK, he was a Full-Power Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, the spell made him Full-Power Super Saiyan 2. How's that?

I don't know about "full-power Super Saiyan 2".

Here's my current theory on how Super Saiyan works:.

Again, Toriyama don't work like that. It's not so uncommon for fans assume that Toriyama tought of Super Saiyan transformation as something like this:



But in fact he never confirmedly used any complicated formula for anything.

At best you could say Toriyama ignored any numerical basis in the Boo saga...

Of course there still exist an official record for the Super Saiyan 2 and 3 multiplier (2x and 4x respectively). So Toriyama still used some numerical basis, even if he was not that consistent through the Boo saga (he wasn't perfect during the Namek saga either)

Vegeta only turns Super Saiyan 2 after being controlled by Babidi. You might as well make an argument that he didn't gain anything since he was using his own free will in the fight. I don't get what you are trying to say with the complicated equation. I didn't mention any numbers beyond Goku first becoming Super Saiyan against Freeza, the same numbers in included in data books. I didn't used any complicated formulas for anything, just outlining what you need to do to become stronger and how the mechanics of it all work. I have no clue if you even read what I wrote beyond "Here's my current theory on how Super Saiyan works:"

and I don't think Toriyama cared at all about any of this, it's about figuring out how this stuff works in-universe

[Kaboom]

Vegeta only turns Super Saiyan 2 after being controlled by Babidi.

No. He did not.

I'm just trying to inform you in the nicest way possible that you are incorrect. You are completely disregarding the databooks' information in favor of your fan theories. Which are extremely over-complicated, to say the least.

That is all.

[dbgtFO]

He also says Gohan's weaker. If Full-Power Super Saiyan is the absolute limit for Goku and he's stronger than Gohan in the Buu arc, then that means Gohan's not as strong as he used to be. Vegeta also still had a distance to catch up to between where he was and Goku. So Vegeta can be stronger than Gohan without being Super Saiyan 2.

Vegeta knows Gohan has SSJ 2, yet before Gohan is shown to be weaker than before Vegeta thinks he'd win the entire tournament and implies that the gap between them is non existent. Remeber this was all before Gohan was shown to be way weaker than before.

Vegeta only turns Super Saiyan 2 after being controlled by Babidi. You might as well make an argument that he didn't gain anything since he was using his own free will in the fight.

That doesn't prove anything. If Vegeta wasn't able to go SSJ 2 beforehand, it would've come up as a plotpoint the first time he ever gets to use it similar to how Goku's first on screen SSJ 3 transformation was noted to take so long, because of not being used to it.

Vegeta was completely used to it and I wonder why...

[hleV]

Vegeta only turns Super Saiyan 2 after being controlled by Babidi.

No. He did not.

I'm just trying to inform you in the nicest way possible that you are incorrect. You are completely disregarding the databooks' information in favor of your fan theories. Which are extremely over-complicated, to say the least.

That is all.

Amen.

[beast mode]

Vegeta only turns Super Saiyan 2 after being controlled by Babidi.

No. He did not.

I'm just trying to inform you in the nicest way possible that you are incorrect. You are completely disregarding the databooks' information in favor of your over-complicated fan theories.

That is all.

You never said it was in any data book! Only that Vegeta "says he's a match for or stronger than Gohan." It isn't possible to disregard information I don't know.

[hleV]

It would be smart to get familiar with the official info by buying guides/reading Herms' guides/reading forums? in order to avoid making weird theories which later happen to make little sense.

[Kaboom]

You never said it was in any data book! Only that Vegeta "says he's a match for or stronger than Gohan." It isn't possible to disregard information I don't know.

Did I? I said there were "other sources," I believe. I'm really sorry, that probably wasn't clear enough, and I'm too used to assuming that people already are aware of these things. But yes, the databooks confirm that Vegeta first reached the stage through "harsh training."

Super Saiyan 2
This form has power that surpasses Super Saiyan in all ways. Gohan naturally transformed into this form through his anger at Cell's brutal actions, while Goku and Vegeta learned it through harsh training.

The more recent Super Exciting Guide books say the same thing about Vegeta reaching the stage.

But all in all, I honestly think you're making your theories about these forms more complicated than they have to be.

[beast mode]

You never said it was in any data book! Only that Vegeta "says he's a match for or stronger than Gohan." It isn't possible to disregard information I don't know.

Did I? I said there were "other sources," I believe. I'm really sorry, that probably wasn't clear enough, and I'm too used to assuming that people already are aware of these things. But yes, the databooks confirm that Vegeta first reached the stage through "harsh training."

Super Saiyan 2
This form has power that surpasses Super Saiyan in all ways. Gohan naturally transformed into this form through his anger at Cell's brutal actions, while Goku and Vegeta learned it through harsh training.

The more recent Super Exciting Guide books say the same thing about Vegeta reaching the stage.

But all in all, I honestly think you're making your theories about these forms more complicated than they have to be.

Ah, thanks. I still don't have to edit much in my previous post, though. Also, I think the reason it's complicated is because Toriyama wrote Dragon Ball in a somewhat haphazard sort of way.

Saiyan reaches a BP of 3,000,000. -> Saiyan has an extreme emotional outburst. -> Saiyan becomes 50 times stronger with a BP of 150,000,000

Being in the 'normal' Saiyan state reduces his or her strength to 3,000,000 BP, the maximum amount of Ki they can use in that form. For a newly transformed Super Saiyan their BP shouldn't be much higher than 150,000,000, by training they can up the amount of Ki they have when they're in the Super Saiyan state. They still have that Ki with them when normal but it's not usable unless they transform.

At some point, regular training does not improve the Super Saiyan's strength (see: Vegeta's BP when fighting No. 19 and 18.) At this point they have two different options of 'surpassing' Super Saiyan: 1. Become a Super Saiyan Stage 2 or 2. Maintain Super Saiyan as long as possible to maximize combat efficiency. Goku's 'Full-Power Super Saiyan' transformation is the absolute maximum power you can achieve without becoming Super Saiyan 2.

Reaching Super Saiyan 2 is the same as Super Saiyan 1. You need reach the absolute limit on your previous form. The same is also true for Super Saiyan 3. Goku became a 'Full-Power Super Saiyan 2' in the afterlife and Vegeta was equal since he got a power up from Babidi, overcoming his temporary Super Saiyan 2 limit like he did himself while training in the RoSaT with Super Saiyan 1.

[jackjack]

Again, Toriyama don't work like that. It's not so uncommon for fans assume that Toriyama tought of Super Saiyan transformation as something like this:

Attacking the straw man must be fun, I guess...