Some perspective on Kikuchi's music

[CatouttaHell]

Honestly what's the point of randomly trolling the Faulconer Productions score in this thread? I like the Japanese score much more than the Faulconer Productions score but I'm not going to go barging into threads that have nothing to do with it insulting people who worked on it. In all honesty, I don't think the score fit well into DBZ but it is very good music when listened to as regular music, not as a soundtrack for something. But that's just my opinion.

On topic: Interesting read, thanks for writing this.

[Soul]

I think one thing I love about Kikuchi's music is that old school 60-70's Martial Arts movie sound, otherwise I know Kikuchi better for his scores in the Showa Gamera series and obviously composers like Akira Ifukube (Godzilla) had a influence on him.

[kei17]

obviously composers like Akira Ifukube (Godzilla) had a influence on him.

Some works of Kikuchi that sound like Ifukube's style:

Unreleased Piece from Doraemon
Destroy All Monsters "Title Credit"

M1221 from DBZ Movie 5 (00:38~)
Introduction Theme of Wanpaku Ouji no Orochi Taiji

[cRookie_Monster]

Looking at Akira Ifukube's birthdate makes sense to me too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akira_Ifukube

That's a 17 year difference, which would be more common for a difference between old master and fanboy. Mancini and Kikuchi were only 6 years apart.

On a side note..Kikuchi is only 1 year senior to John Williams. I forget how old that guy is! But I read once that conductors have the highest life expectancy of any profession due to low stress, high satisfaction, low risk of injury, and regular exercise (conducting can be exhausting).

Jeez, Danny Elfman and I are 22 years apart and JW and I are *43* years apart. But Hans Zimmer and I are 18 years apart...and I have definitely thought of him as the new guy who didn't write a lot of the scores I grew up with. Wow..well I guess the thing to look at is when their movies came out. Yeah Zimmer didn't start doing big epic scores until I was 25 (in 2000 w/ Gladiator). No wonder I look at him the way I do. I was already a composer with a degree in music theory and working in the industry. My ideas were set already.

[Attitudefan]

You know it's true... Just listening to all those pieces you can definitely tell how he was influenced.

Gotta love that right? Scott, I guess that's why I really like your stuff (All the music you have on YT, not just DBZ)

I love 70s-80s Rock & Roll/Synth rock(or pop) music
lol crazy stuff

[djkalteraphine]

Just to throw in my 2 cents on the subject...

I first saw the show with the Levi score, back in the Saban/FUNimation days. It did the job well enough. But after a year of watching it in the original dub, I started catching the show (with fanatic frequency) on International Channel... where it aired in Japanese, with no subtitles, every Sunday evening. Now, I can't exactly tell you what 11-year-old me thought of the score, or if he thought anything of it, but as I grew and continued to watch the show, I started to prefer the Kikuchi score. Especially watching Dragon Ball on Toonami, where the original score was kept, I began to tell the difference.

I suppose I thought the Japanese version felt more like "Dragon Ball" (as an essence) because, well, it was the original version. But here I was watching the English in-house FUNi dub of Dragon Ball, and it had that same feeling. So I started picking up the japanese soundtracks. And eventually came to not want to watch the show at all without the Kikuchi score.

Obviously, it's all a matter of taste. I thought the Yamamoto score was good, but not as effective as Kikuchi's. I dislike the DBGT Japanese score, and would rather listen to the Menza score. The Faulconer score has its thing, but as has been pointed out on this thread, feels not quite like Dragon Ball.

So what is it? Is it subliminal? Do I like the series best with Kikuchi because I'm a fanboy of a certain version? Or is it simply the taste I developed? I couldn't tell you. But when I think of the Dragon Ball score, I think of moments like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE044Fv46eA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O_9BKZWZiA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIh0-d9MpVU#t=5m30s

Note the use of silence... subtly... slow builds with big crescendos. If you ask me, it's hardly Dragon Ball without Kikuchi.

[Lord Exor]

What "feels" like Dragon Ball is entirely subjective, and Kikuchi's score is undoubtedly a product of its time.

[Makaioshin]

What "feels" like Dragon Ball is entirely subjective, and Kikuchi's score is undoubtedly a product of its time. Tarble's Theme from the 2008 special is a very close approximation of the Faulconer style, and it originates from Japan.

There wasn't any new music in that special other than the ending theme.

[djkalteraphine]

What "feels" like Dragon Ball is entirely subjective, and Kikuchi's score is undoubtedly a product of its time. Tarble's Theme from the 2008 special is a very close approximation of the Faulconer style, and it originates from Japan.

Perhaps, but the neurology of music and memory is very deep, indeed. So it may be subjective, but when so many people around the world grew up with Kikuchi's score as the backdrop for Dragon Ball... if there is a feeling of Dragon Ball, it would come from that score. Even more so than the images.

[djkalteraphine]

What "feels" like Dragon Ball is entirely subjective, and Kikuchi's score is undoubtedly a product of its time. Tarble's Theme from the 2008 special is a very close approximation of the Faulconer style, and it originates from Japan.

Perhaps, but the neurology of music and memory is very deep, indeed. So it may be subjective, but when so many people around the world grew up with Kikuchi's score as the backdrop for Dragon Ball... if there is a feeling of Dragon Ball, it would come from that score. Even more so than the images.

[djkalteraphine]

What "feels" like Dragon Ball is entirely subjective, and Kikuchi's score is undoubtedly a product of its time. Tarble's Theme from the 2008 special is a very close approximation of the Faulconer style, and it originates from Japan.

Perhaps, but the neurology of music and memory is very deep, indeed. So it may be subjective, but when so many people around the world grew up with Kikuchi's score as the backdrop for Dragon Ball... if there is a feeling of Dragon Ball, it would come from that score. Even more so than the images.

[Rob]

DBZ on International Channel... that brings back good memories. (Even if it wasn't subbed, like the other anime they showed...)

It's fun to go back to the Gamera movies with Kikuchi's score (especially since two of them were featured on MST3K - and I'm looking forward to ditching my VHS copies when the MST3K vs. Gamera set comes out).

I definitely like the "old-school" feel of Kikuchi's score. It just... works for me. There isn't much else that I can articulate about it at this time...

[GotenDaisuki]

Some people who prefer Faulconer over Kikuchi state that Kikuchi feels outdated, while Faulconer has a newer sound to it. Well, because of Kikuchi's many influences, of course his music sounds outdated, but it works since he took an old style, made it his own, and did very well with it.

[kei17]

Some people who prefer Faulconer over Kikuchi state that Kikuchi feels outdated, while Faulconer has a newer sound to it. Well, because of Kikuchi's many influences, of course his music sounds outdated, but it works since he took an old style, made it his own, and did very well with it.

Actually, on anime magazines, Kikuchi's style was criticized by some Japanese DB fans for being outdated even during the original run. I think, however, if they had hired some young musician who composes the typical-'80s-style-synth music, the outcome would have been even more outdated than Kikuchi now, in the 21st century. For your information, I heard that such anti-Kikuchi fans had praised Yamamoto for his new style music, but now... that happened. Quite ironic.

[djkalteraphine]

Some people who prefer Faulconer over Kikuchi state that Kikuchi feels outdated, while Faulconer has a newer sound to it. Well, because of Kikuchi's many influences, of course his music sounds outdated, but it works since he took an old style, made it his own, and did very well with it.

Actually, on anime magazines, Kikuchi's style was criticized by some Japanese DB fans for being outdated even during the original run. I think, however, if they had hired some young musician who composes the typical-'80s-style-synth music, the outcome would have been even more outdated than Kikuchi now, in the 21st century. For your information, I heard that such anti-Kikuchi fans had praised Yamamoto for his new style music, but now... that happened. Quite ironic.

Interesting. Kikuchi's score works so well for the kung fu style of Dragon Ball, though, so I'm curiously exactly what those reviewers in the 1980s would've rather had...?

[cRookie_Monster]

I think a big part of is the giant generation gap. People now-a-days aren't as familiar with the old music, so it doesn't sound as cliche as it did 20 years ago. Guys like Barry Watson and Bruce Faulconer would have been especially tired of the old school music since they were a lot closer to it during their childhood (older generation than myself). and believe me Bruce made some negative comments about the Japanese score.

I stand by my earlier statement that you can see anything emotional as cheesy once the devices behind it are familiar enough. Or you can try to open up and enjoy things anyway.

And most cartoon scores in the 80s were not cheesy synth pop, they were jazz bands trying to fit into TV land. That goes for action series too. The pop music on the radio was synth pop, the TV arranger guys hadn't caught up yet. Even shows like Knight Rider show a lot of jazz band influence if you listen to more than just the main theme. Vince DiCola's Transformers movie score was wayyy updated compared to the TV score btw.

Edit:More thoughts, I think there can be something irritating about having to listen to your parent's generation of music that eventually fades. Did you know JS Bach's son C.P. Bach thought Dad was really dated sounding? (along with many others). It's true, Bach held onto the Baroque style longer than most. Things were trending toward Mozart's later 'Classical' style (true style period 'Classical' usage here) Now I bet many people have no idea about the difference or which one came first. What's cool about Bach is he mastered the Baroque style, doing it better than anyone had...kinda closing the book on the whole thing (his fugues are masterpieces noone can touch for instance) Ok I'm veering off topic now lol.

[Fionordequester]

Watson and Bruce Faulconer would have been especially tired of the old school music since they were a lot closer to it during their childhood (older generation than myself), and believe me Bruce made some negative comments about the Japanese score.

Really? Like what?

[cRookie_Monster]

Watson and Bruce Faulconer would have been especially tired of the old school music since they were a lot closer to it during their childhood (older generation than myself), and believe me Bruce made some negative comments about the Japanese score.

Really? Like what?

I don't think I could quote, maybe I made it sound worse than it was. He probably just said it was dated, paired with some other negative term. I don't think anyone on our side at the time had any idea that there was a American fanbase so dedicated to the original score. I didn't find out myself until I had already worked on about 20 episodes. Oh yeah, I was working with some friends on a video game on IRC, so I decided to check out the DBZ channels...and started to get to know the community that way.

[GotenDaisuki]

So you guys just assumed that there were no Japanese-version fans in the United States?
Or did you simply think we wouldn't care about the music inserted in the first place?

[cRookie_Monster]

So you guys just assumed that there were no Japanese-version fans in the United States?
Or did you simply think we wouldn't care about the music inserted in the first place?

Yeah the first one is kinda what I said, but in a slightly nicer way I really hadn't been there that long at that point. I hadn't really gotten the scope of the series yet. I didn't even know about SSJ for instance.

(and I added stuff above to avoid double posting btw)


Oh and btw when the score came out originally, most people were comparing it to the Ocean score if I remember. It was a lot harder to get a hold of good Japanese episodes back then. Lots of crappy real player files...people were big on encoding bad VHS to bad Real PLayer, it was terrible quality. I think only super die hard fans did that stuff.