Fusion multiplier

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:35 pm

Alright, so why do they go Super Saiyan vs 18 at the Tournament? If their base forms are above Piccolo who is above pre-HTC Piccolo who was equal to 17 who was above 18, shouldn't they have defeated her easily?

CatouttaHell · Post by **CatouttaHell** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:36 pm

They fought #18 before they went into the RoSaT and surpassed their SSjin forms in their Base forms though.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:01 pm

CatouttaHell wrote:They fought #18 before they went into the RoSaT and surpassed their SSjin forms in their Base forms though.

...in six hours?

CatouttaHell · Post by **CatouttaHell** » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:04 pm

Rocketman wrote:...in six hours?

Why not? For one that's like a week inside. For two they managed to go from SSjin to SSjin 3 in their fused state in that time. They were prodigies who possibly had far more potential than even Gohan. I also use a decreased SSjin multiplier, if that changes anything.

Also they had each other as sparring partners and neither of them had really done any training even close to as intense to what the RoSaT is like (even 150x gravity training isn't really close) so these two factors made it even more insanely effective.

Dabooyaka · Post by **Dabooyaka** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:01 am

They were only there half an hour. 1 minute makes 6 hours inside. So they were not there that long.
Piccolo> Kids IMO.

Savage68 · Post by **Savage68** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:11 am

They were in the Room of Spirit and Time for 10 days.

p123 · Post by **p123** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:55 am

I don't see the boys getting that much stronger that crazy. Hell, we have accepted much worse.

IMO, my best explanation of how it's possible is...

That training for immediate threats warrant huge increases, and that the boys are weak MSSJs, who have never trained like this. MSSJs can improve dramatically really quickly, and everything is just easy for the boys. Everything comes easy to these guys, and they are prodigies.

The big thing with Base > SSJ, is that using a 5x boost, it's realistic. A 50x supporter could never accept this, as it's just too much of an increase. One of the reasons I feel you have to go with the 5x boost, the Buu Saga just doesn't work without it...

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:28 am

p123 wrote:The big thing with Base > SSJ, is that using a 5x boost, it's realistic. A 50x supporter could never accept this, as it's just too much of an increase. One of the reasons I feel you have to go with the 5x boost, the Buu Saga just doesn't work without it...

I beg to differ. I make the Majin Boo arc "work" just fine time and again when I make Power Level lists, without having to second-guess the official and time-tested multiplier(s). It's one of the precious few pieces of information we have to work with regarding post-Freeza power level scaling, so it'd be foolish to simply disregard it.

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:27 pm

The desire to make things "realistic" and make the Buu Arc "work"(supposedly in an unofficial power level list) does not make a lesser boost factual in any way.

And it's not our job to try to make things work in a power level list anyways. Toriyama most likely wasn't thinking about transformation boosts and numbers anymore, so all the scenarios that supposedly proves he changed his mind about the boost(which are the weights scenario and the kiri deal) are just based on personal interpretation of scenes that don't prove anything.

If Toriyama really changed his mind and wanted to get that point across, why not just say it in one of the various interviews he has appeared in? He had a golden opportunity to do it in the SEG: Story Volume one, but all we got out of it was Toriyama saying that he thought it was a little extravagant for Goku to become that strong and nothing else.

Even in the original work the characters don't even hint at their SSJ forms granting them less power than usual or the fanmade idea, that FPSSJ(which is just SSJ anyways) magically made their bases super strong because shut up.

The only thing I can see actually being suggested by the story is there being a "wall/limit" to how much power normal SSJ(and the forms surpassing that as well) can grant, but then that would conflict with the official sources stating that SSJ is just 50 times the battle power of normal nowhere stating that the relationship between normal and SSJ will at one point change.

Fox666 · Post by **Fox666** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:12 pm

I agree. There isn't a serious reason why you should consider that the Super Saiyan multiplier changed, except for making fanmade battle powers lists work.

As far I can tell, Toriyama seems to have left the normal state of saiyans aside. Most of time they face a strong opponent, they turn in Super Saiyan right at the beggining, even Vegetto. Gotenks did a little different, but he didn't achieved anything in his normal state, except being humiliated.

Either way, I don't think Gotenks got that much stronger after training in the Room of Time. I suppose his growth would be somewhat proportional to that of Trunks and Goten. The two kids could push Vegeta and Gohan in a fight, they getting 5 or 50 times (or whatever it is) stronger is quite of a stretch. Gotenks achieved Super Saiyan 3, isn't that enough?

p123 · Post by **p123** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:29 pm

2x multiplier for SSJ2 is shady as well...

SSJ2 Majin Vegeta/Goku > SSJ2 Teen Gohan > Initial Fat Buu > SSJ Gohan KHH >> SSJ Gohan

I mean, SSJ2 is just begging for a 4x multiplier...Realistically, it's just not fair for the 50x supporters. You lose out on so much. I understand there are two clear sides here, but you get all of this cool stuff...

I think you get a lot of benefits from a 5x multiplier, I mean I wouldn't switch to it unless it helped me greatly.. You can actually make the killi system work, and it's cool as fack!

SSJ Goku 6,000
SSJ Kid Gohan 5,500
SSJ Vegeta 5,000
Dabura 4,000
SSJ Teen Gohan 3,750
South Kaioshin 3,000
East Kaioshin 2,000
Base Goku 1,200
Base Kid Gohan 1,100
Base Vegeta 1,000
Yakkon 800
Base Teen Gohan 750
Kibito 700
Piccolo 600

I mean, you guys have to admit, that's awfully cool, convenient, and freaking awesome! To like make Killi actually work. It's very nice...

Then not to mention you can keep Gotenks power statements factual...

Base Gotenks Pre Rosat - Suggested to be superior than Majin Vegeta by a decent margin, but nowhere close to SSJ3 Goku...

Base Gotenks Post Rosat - Suggested to be superior to SSJ Gotenks Pre Rosat...

I think you get a lot of benefits from a 5x multiplier, I mean I wouldn't switch to it unless it helped me greatly.. You can actually make the killi system work, and it's cool as fack!

SSJ Goku 6,000
SSJ Kid Gohan 5,500
SSJ Vegeta 5,000
Dabura 4,000
SSJ Teen Gohan 3,750
South Kaioshin 3,000
East Kaioshin 2,000
Base Goku 1,200
Base Kid Gohan 1,100
Base Vegeta 1,000
Yakkon 800
Base Teen Gohan 750
Kibito 700
Piccolo 600

I mean, you guys have to admit, that's awfully cool, convenient, and freaking awesome! To like make Killi actually work. It's very nice...

Then not to mention you can keep Gotenks power statements factual...

Base Gotenks Pre Rosat - Suggested to be superior than Majin Vegeta by a decent margin, but nowhere close to SSJ3 Goku...

Base Gotenks Post Rosat - Suggested to be superior to SSJ Gotenks Pre Rosat...

And not to mention the working fusion formula is absolutely impossible with SSJ as a 50x boost. Guys, a freaking working fusion formula, I am one of the few who actually have one, and trust me, it was very hard to get...

So, all in all, being a 5x supporter, comes with a ton of perks...

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:00 pm

I feel like somebody's trying to sell me a Magikarp in a gold-painted PokéBall.

p123, you have no idea how many big, baseless, non-existent "rules" you're holding yourself to when you propose what you wrote about there and try to sell it as the "better option."

There is no such thing as too big or too small a gap between powers.
There is no such thing as an automatic "multiplier" or other set increase for any attack.
There is no such thing as a "Fusion Formula."

Fox666 · Post by **Fox666** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:02 pm

p123 wrote:2x multiplier for SSJ2 is shady as well...

Why do you say that?

p123 wrote:Then not to mention you can keep Gotenks power statements factual...

Base Gotenks Pre Rosat - Suggested to be superior than Majin Vegeta by a decent margin, but nowhere close to SSJ3 Goku...

Base Gotenks Post Rosat - Suggested to be superior to SSJ Gotenks Pre Rosat...

I don't think "base" Gotenks was suggested to be anything. As far I can tell, he was easily defeated by the fat Majin Boo, and Evil Boo took him out with one hit. However this is not a important subject.

p123 wrote:And not to mention the working fusion formula is absolutely impossible with SSJ as a 50x boost. Guys, a freaking working fusion formula

I am sorry, but you can't go against the multiplier stated in the guides because it doesn't suit your fanmade formulas.

p123 wrote:I am one of the few who actually have one, and trust me, it was very hard to get...

Doesn't every single fanmade battle power list has a unique (and odd) "fusion formula"? Usually whenever I read one, I see a note like "AxB*1.5"

dbgtFO · Post by **dbgtFO** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:45 pm

@p123
I've given up on you man. This is just beyond ridiculous and from seeing your plans about trying to make AT accept such fanmade stuff I just can't take this seriously anymore(if I ever did IDK).

I have to thank you I guess, I just had an epiphany about all of this stupid bullcrap after debating with you guys over at Neo and here.

Now I really don't give a fuck about power levels anymore.

And I'm also leaving this thread, I suspect it's only going downhill from here.

CatouttaHell · Post by **CatouttaHell** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:14 pm

p123 can you please stop throwing your "rules" and opinions in everyone's faces as if they're solid fact? Unless Toriyama comes right out and confirms what you're saying, which he WON'T, it's nothing more than opinion at best. Seriously you're giving people like me who like to debate power levels and aren't crazy a bad name.

p123 · Post by **p123** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:12 pm

Damn..... For.... Real....Backlash.... Lol...

I don't try to force my rules onto you guys, I think they are interesting, and just think people would think their cool. Just another poster like everyone else. I play around with a lot of formulas and theories, some people appreciate them, some don't.... My aspirations shouldn't affect any of you in the slightest...

Nazi Cola · Post by **Nazi Cola** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:15 pm

I think we're going a little overboard here.

p123 · Post by **p123** » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:19 pm

Yea, it's like a witch hunt man. I'm just a passionate fan like the rest of you. Eek!

Nineteen · Post by **Nineteen** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:49 am

Can someone explain to me where the impression that any of the Saiyans even came close to matching SSJ in their base form comes from? I'm probably not nearly as familiar with the series as you folks, but based on my limited exposure to it (the anime and non-consecutive manga issues) I never really got the impression that even Goku improved too much from his Namek-era battle power while in his base form.

lash · Post by **lash** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:24 am

p123 wrote:So, all in all, being a 5x supporter, comes with a ton of perks...

Why support something that isn't supported in the first place? I mean, I could understand 10x as a supported powerup... But 5?
Listing its "advantages", when it never had evidence of existing in the first place doesn't exactly help either.

Kanzenshuu

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