Fusion multiplier

[Fox666]

Base Gotenks Post > SSJ Gotenks Pre

You know, you're likely the only one here to believe that...

[Rocketman]

All the problems with multipliers and massively inflated numbers are because people make up rules and then declare those rules to be inviolate.

[Kaboom]

All the problems with multipliers and massively inflated numbers are because people make up rules and then declare those rules to be inviolate.

You have NO idea how long I and a few others have already been trying to make this point.

[Dabooyaka]

Base Gotenks Post > SSJ Gotenks Pre

You know, you're likely the only one here to believe that...

Trust me, there are others that believe that also. Ten days in the ROST is not enough time for that to be true..

[Fox666]

Forgetting the time they spend on the room of time, I suppose Goten and Trunks increase is somewhat proportional to Gotenks. And that "detail" (they being stronger than their SSJ selves) shouldn't pass unnoticeable...

[p123]

I just learned that Piccolo said something along the lines that...


Even if you increase just a little, your power will be a huge increase in fusion...



Which could just mean that it still increases proportionally, but overall, the change in power would seem quite dramatic, or that fusion gets a lot stronger, the stronger the fighter is...

But I don't know, it's an iffy statement, but it's there...

For example, it's possible that...
The guides have Vegeta x Goku = Vegetto

2 x 2 = 4
4 x 4 = 16


As we can see, the two individual powers doubled their power, yet the fusion has four folded...


So it can be something like this, or it could just be nonsense, and work proportionally like this...


2 + 2 = 4
4 + 4 = 8



But really, I think the Vegeta x Goku stuff, has more play, because of Piccolo's statement, and I think the AxB stuff might actually work... I will try it out more in depth, and see what happens...


With this type of formula though, Gokan is just going to be stupidly powerful so perhaps some adjustments are needed to be made...

[Fox666]

We know that Goku as a Super Saiyan 3 could defeat the fat Majin Boo, and we have the official statement of how much the Super Saiyan forms increases.

So the metamorian fusion is not the multiplication of the battle power as know by Freeza's organization. Otherwise Trunks/Goten should be able to defeat Majin Boo by perfoming the fusion with Mr. Popo, since we have the official record that this would increase their power by 1,030 times, way more effective than transforming in Super Saiyan 3 (400 times).

I think my argument is very simplistic here.


About Piccolo's line:

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3
Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo
Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…”
Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”

There is too much room for interpretation here. I think it's far-fetched to say this mean the increase in power get exponentially greater when fused.

Besides, Gotenks is stronger than Goten or Trunks, so technically if the increase is proportional and they get stronger, it surely will be more effective while fused.

[p123]

Yea I think that's more logical/reasonable...

I guess the best thing to do with Base Gotenks Post > SSJ Gotenks Pre, is to throw it away. It's really the only thing that holds back the 50x multiplier ....


Anyone want to go over the 910/924 KHH stuff with me? What are the numbers for Goku/Piccolo vs Raditz?

[dbgtFO]

And I'm also leaving this thread, I suspect it's only going downhill from here.

Boy was I wrong!

I guess the best thing to do with Base Gotenks Post > SSJ Gotenks Pre, is to throw it away. It's really the only thing that holds back the 50x multiplier ....

How so?

[hleV]

Wouldn't it be smart to say that Metamorian Fusion has its own power calculation (like Metamorian Power - MP) and the fusion result happens to be Goten's MP * Trunks' MP (or something else which involves multiplying).
Same for Potara Fusion, but possibly with other units than MP.

[buffninja91]

Anyone want to go over the 910/924 KHH stuff with me? What are the numbers for Goku/Piccolo vs Raditz?

Personally I go for the 416/408 approach, but that 910 is representative of Goku's full capabilities. Using another show as an example, in Yu Yu Hakusho, a character's physical strength doesn't count for much. But when they combine their fists with Reiki, you got a whole different animal. Same principle applies. 416 would be representative of Goku level of ki, which would still be weaker and more underdeveloped than his physical abilities, which rest at 494 or so. Up until Kaio, Goku probably didn't know how to completely meld his ki and body, resulting in his ki being largely unused while in a fight, until he decides to surface it in the form of an attack. As far as 924 and the whole attack multiplier thing goes, I would say that it's simply power addition due to the compression of ki, and that in this state of compression, Goku, at the time, was at his closest to actually having reached that state of unity with both types of power, like when you get potential energy from compressing a spring, . Later on, when the fighters have all advanced so much, the power boost would go down relatively speaking. Piccolo says they can cause their fighting power to explode or something along those lines while talking to 20, so I would take that to mean that by that point they've learned to fight not only with their "full" powers, but have also learned to use the compression of ki in their own fighter styles, making them stronger overall but yielding seemingly smaller boosts from charged attacks and such.

[CatouttaHell]

Base Gotenks Post > SSJ Gotenks Pre

You know, you're likely the only one here to believe that...

I have Base Gotenks Post 2x stronger than SSjin Gotenks Pre, so no.

[hleV]

Okay. I've came to a conclusion that the Metamorian Fusion aka Fusion Dance cannot be a multiplier. Only Potara Fusion can, nothing contradicts it at least since we haven't seen Vegetto's true power.

Why can't Metamorian Fusion be a multiplier?

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7
Goku: “No, not that. I could use Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power that either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [7] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…”

From completely weak and gentle to a substantial warrior. For Goku to be that impressed by the technique, Metamorians' fusion must have been like at least 5 times stronger than Metamorians separately.
If we take Metamorian Fusion as a multiplier, Metamorians' own power would be raughly 5 MP while their fusion would be at 5 * 5 = 25 (MP).

Now, let's think of Metamorians' power in Battle Power units. Completely weak and gentle, right? Let's give them 10.000 (the less we give them, the more ridiculous becomes the power of Gotenks, but about that later). So,

• 1 MP = 2.000 BP.

Since Goten and Trunks are FPSSJs and seem to overpower #18 as SSJs, let's give them 4.000.000 BP (these numbers are most likely incorrect, but making them higher will give us even more trouble, so let's stay with these).

• Goten/Trunks = 4.000.000 BP = 2.000 MP;
  Gotenks = 2.000 MP * 2.000 MP = 4.000.000 MP = 8.000.000.000 BP.

8 billion in base form?! Alright... If we give Goku of that time a BP of 20.000.000 (wow...), then SSJ3 Goku is equal to base Gotenks. How does that make any sense? It doesn't.
Take into account that numbers would be way more outrageous had I chosen more appropriate numbers.
Metamorian Fusion being a multiplier would only make sense if Metamorians were pretty strong by default, but they probably had like less than 1.000 BP.

By having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power that either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It would work out if Metamorian Fusion was a constant multiplier of fusee A or B power, like the weaker one's MP * 10. Note that this doesn't make Metamorian Fusion weaker than Potara Fusion, since Potara is said to be a fusee A and B powers' multiplier and we don't know what were Goku and Vegeta's power numbers according to Potara Fusion.

[Fox666]

Only Potara Fusion can, nothing contradicts it at least since we haven't seen Vegetto's true power.

Actually Vegetto transformed in Super Saiyan right at the beggining of the battle, so actually this given an idea of a practical the limit of his power.

Going by the Freeza saga information regarding battle powers the warriors should be at least 1 million each, if Potara is literally the multiplication of the two person, that should make Kibitoshin and Vegetto are at least in the trillion mark...

[hleV]

Only Potara Fusion can, nothing contradicts it at least since we haven't seen Vegetto's true power.

Actually Vegetto transformed in Super Saiyan right at the beggining of the battle, so actually this given an idea of a practical the limit of his power.

We've seen Goku, Vegeta and hell, even Gohan going SSJ1 even though they were capable of higher level transformations, so nothing contradicts Vegetto being able to go SSJ3. Vegetto going SSJ may only mean (and not even necessary) that his base form is weaker than Super Boo, by an unknown amount.

Going by the Freeza saga information regarding battle powers the warriors should be at least 1 million each, if Potara is literally the multiplication of the two person, that should make Kibitoshin and Vegetto are at least in the trillion mark...

I find it impossible for Potara (or Metamorian) Fusion to be using Battle Powers of Freeza saga. Sorry, but it just doesn't make sense. Babidi using Kiri proves that different races use different numbers to measure power, I don't see why fusions would be an exception. So if by fusion numbers Kaioshin and Kibito are at 5, Kibitoshin would be 5 times stronger.

Sorry if I didn't really get your point.

[Fox666]

Vegetto going SSJ may only mean (and not even necessary) that his base form is weaker than Super Boo, by an unknown amount.

Yeah, that's what I was saying. I don't see any reason to think he can't transform in Super Saiyan 3.

I find it impossible for Potara (or Metamorian) Fusion to be using Battle Powers of Freeza saga. Sorry, but it just doesn't make sense. Babidi using Kiri proves that different races use different numbers to measure power, I don't see why fusions would be an exception. So if by fusion numbers Kaioshin and Kibito are at 5, Kibitoshin would be 5 times stronger.

Well, the Super Exciting Guide says "battle power" regarding the potara fusion. But I myself find it hard to believe.

Anyone trying to use it to calculate Vegetto's in battle power system will get somewhat around the 100 quadrillions mark, or given in numerals: 100,000,000,000,000,000

[CatouttaHell]

Vegetto not being able to go beyond SSjin is madness to me. Gotenks went from SSjin to being able to go SSjin 3 in a week and his fusees could only go up to SSjin. Both people who made Vegetto up could already go SSjin 2, one of them could go SSjin 3, and from Goku telling Gohan he'd show him how to go SSjin 3 it seems that going SSjin 3 may not be as insanely hard as some people think. Nonetheless, half of Vegetto can already go SSjin 3 and if he can't initially do it I'm sure in very little training he'll be able to.

[Fox666]

If we assume Vegetto can use any technique of Goku and Vegeta, the same apply to Super Saiyan 3. That is the same as Boo or Cell using the techniques of their components...

[Rocketman]

Well, the Super Exciting Guide says "battle power" regarding the potara fusion. But I myself find it hard to believe.

Anyone trying to use it to calculate Vegetto's in battle power system will get somewhat around the 100 quadrillions mark, or given in numerals: 100,000,000,000,000,000

So what's the problem? He is Vegetto.

[Fox666]

The question is not just Vegetto, but Kibitoshin and also Evil Boo after absorbing people.